Norwood's defensive capabilites

[GeorgeLColdwell]

Now I know there are many discussions about Norwood on this forum and there are many split decisions on him. I have to give credit to him firstly and say his play as a pivot is very good and has a great ping on him. However, after recently watching a Chelsea analysis of the game, it's extremely clear that he's not doing the central pivot job of covering his men. There have been many other occasions in the last year where teams get into our final third because norwood hasn't tracked the midfielder run, or covered one of our CB's if he has had to step with a striker. Obviously, CW may have given him a set instruction for a game and isn't there to cover, but from my eyes he has go to go with a lot of runners that are getting free. Norwood isn't exactly the most versatile, and wouldn't say he's very quick, but then that begs the question, do we need someone with a bit more of a command on that central midfield spot. I do admire Norwood and the way he controls on the ball, but I have to point fingers when it comes to opposition players finding space in a third if our team is moving about.

Now im not saying Norwood should be covering every single hole, because actually he's the midfielder that sometimes hard presses in the centre and the other midfielders should cover, but the play of Chelsea at the weekend with Kovacic and Mount really exploited our areas as Egan was occupied by Abraham and we didn't have a central cover. I'm not here to slag anyone off and of course the Chelsea game was a bit of a disaster after 2 promising performances, and I can point a lot fingers after that game. However, to me, Norwood is consistently not in the position I believe he should be covering. I'm not asking for a heated debate and for all I know, I could be chatting out my rear end, but would love to hear opinions.

 

[FTPE]

Its a weird time for me to go back to knocking him because I thought he did some very good things against Chelsea but yeah defensively he's very weak in my opinion.

Yes he gives the ball away more because he tries more 'killer passes' and being as deep as he is puts us under more pressure when he does lose possession but he's very slow and weak when teams break against us.

 

[themaninblack]

Thanks for an interesting and well-reasoned OP GeorgeLColdwell. Up with this sort of thing!

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

I think Chelsea set up very well against us and are on very good form at the moment so it was always going to be very tough. I mean we've all seen the stats with Chelsea winning most duels which is the main red flag. However, I just want to focus on Norwoods defensive awareness, not saying he was direct fault for any goal, just want to identify the key areas we're letting the opposition in.

Our outside midfielder would press their fullback, our wingback would cover in front of Chelsea attacking winger, while our outside CB would cover the Channel ball over the top, leaving a big space between CB sometimes. Now, usually Egan would be able to cover that ball if it is played in between but I think he was instructed to man mark the F out of Abraham when he was stepping out. So then it begs the question, who covers Chelsea's floating midfielder who found the pocket of space in between the CB and for me it has to be Norwood if Egan is on Abraham. Anyway, there's no point getting specific and I think we were just poor in general, not winning enough balls or grabbing the game like we did against Liverpool. I dont necessarily want to drop Norwood, but I think Ampadu performed excellently against Liverpool in that role and did the covering we needed.

 

[true99blade]

The whole team can’t defend at the minute but yeah let’s select Norwood.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

The whole team can’t defend at the minute but yeah let’s select Norwood.

I mean I've stated we played terribly and the defence were leaking all game. However, I just wanted to give a clear tactical view of Norwood's positioning with no bias or personal views of dislike. He's done so much for the squad and was a key role in the promotion squad, especially getting the ball up the pitch and dictating the play. I'm just saying, I think we miss the ability of a CDM who can fill the gaps when teams pull us about, especially now it's happening more after teams have developed their tactical play against us.

 

[Lane Ender]

Dress it up how you want but as with others he isnt Premiership quality

 

[BushBlade]

If Mount is on the ball, Lundstram should be close to Kovacevic, if Kovacevic is on the ball then Berge should be close to Mount because Norwood can’t cover them both. I couldn’t bear to watch it again but my initial thought was Lundstram should have been tracking Kovacevic’s runs. If he doesn’t, Berge has to make sure there’s no pass on to Mount so that Norwood can shift over towards Kovacevic.

 

[coolasanidiot]

Dress it up how you want but as with others he isnt Premiership quality

He certainly was last year. And for me he's still class. He's got a great pass, he's always available, he can tackle, he can play the killer balls. So completely disagree. I'd have preferred a knackered Norwood carrying on, on Saturday- after the substitutions we got worse.

If we have to slag somebody off, lets not dress it up McBurnie is shite and is not Prem quality but for me Norwood definitely is; deserves to play every match- he is is in the undroppable set with

Rammers Enda Baldock Egan Bash Berge Fleck - these were and are still all good - the team isn't bad we've played 3 in a row impossible games the rest we were unfortunate/ unlucky.

This team is still very good- all the negative crap is what it is negative crap.

Like 97% of all other sensible fans - Chris Wilder for what he's done= JOB FOR LIFE- the 3% are morons.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

If Mount is on the ball, Lundstram should be close to Kovacevic, if Kovacevic is on the ball then Berge should be close to Mount because Norwood can’t cover them both. I couldn’t bear to watch it again but my initial thought was Lundstram should have been tracking Kovacevic’s runs. If he doesn’t, Berge has to make sure there’s no pass on to Mount so that Norwood can shift over towards Kovacevic.

See the problem with that is when the ball went to one of their fullbacks, the outside midfielder pressed them, trying to cut out the pass to Mount/Kovacic, since our strikers were man marking kante in the middle. Now most of the time it worked and the ball went back to the Chelsea CB, however when Mount/kovacic gained the space, which they started to do more in the second half, they had too much time on the ball to pick out their next pass. In the first half the ball was cut off well and that's why they resulted to the long ball into kovacic and Mount because our outside midfielders cut the lane well, but later on, on tired legs the midfielders didn't cover the space as well, and thats where my point of Norwood comes in, because he's not marking kante, he's not marking Abraham, he's not marking the wingers, so he's got to be covering the runs from chelseas runners and unfortunately he didn't. On the other side, maybe the outside CB should of done a better job of tracking them but they were more focused on the Chelsea wingers which is fair enough.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

He certainly was last year. And for me he's still class. He's got a great pass, he's always available, he can tackle, he can play the killer balls. So completely disagree. I'd have preferred a knackered Norwood carrying on, on Saturday- after the substitutions we got worse.

If we have to slag somebody off, lets not dress it up McBurnie is shite and is not Prem quality but for me Norwood definitely is; deserves to play every match- he is is in the undroppable set with

Rammers Enda Baldock Egan Bash Berge Fleck - these were and are still all good - the team isn't bad we've played 3 in a row impossible games the rest we were unfortunate/ unlucky.

This team is still very good- all the negative crap is what it is negative crap.

Like 97% of all other sensible fans - Chris Wilder for what he's done= JOB FOR LIFE- the 3% are morons.

I dont want to slag Norwood off, neither do I want to slag off CW, I think Chelsea out did us tactically. However, after the first goal where Kovacic made that run in behind, maybe Wilder should of said something or Norwood recognise what was happening and changed how men were marked/ cut out. Unfortunately I didnt see a change. Completely agree with Wilder keeping the job though.

 

[BushBlade]

See the problem with that is when the ball went to one of their fullbacks, the outside midfielder pressed them, trying to cut out the pass to Mount/Kovacic, since our strikers were man marking kante in the middle. Now most of the time it worked and the ball went back to the Chelsea CB, however when Mount/kovacic gained the space, which they started to do more in the second half, they had too much time on the ball to pick out their next pass. In the first half the ball was cut off well and that's why they resulted to the long ball into kovacic and Mount because our outside midfielders cut the lane well, but later on, on tired legs the midfielders didn't cover the space as well, and thats where my point of Norwood comes in, because he's not marking kante, he's not marking Abraham, he's not marking the wingers, so he's got to be covering the runs from chelseas runners and unfortunately he didn't. On the other side, maybe the outside CB should of done a better job of tracking them but they were more focused on the Chelsea wingers which is fair enough.

Shouldn’t our wing backs be tracking their wingers? As you say, when the two wider midfielders did their job, Norwood didn’t get exposed.
That said, he got hooked so perhaps Wilder saw the same as you. As I said, I can’t watch it again, ever, and if I’m not prepared to do that I can’t really argue strongly about it.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

Shouldn’t our wing backs be tracking their wingers? As you say, when the two wider midfielders did their job, Norwood didn’t get exposed.
That said, he got hooked so perhaps Wilder saw the same as you. As I said, I can’t watch it again, ever, and if I’m not prepared to do that I can’t really argue strongly about

I'll put it into context, on Chelsea's right side they had James at Rb, Kovacic at RCM and ziyech at RW. When we settled back into our block, it was Lundstrams job to press James at Rb, Max Lowe to mark the feet ball to Ziyech and then Enda Stevens to mark the long ball of the Channel while supporting Lowe. When Lundstram pressed well and stopped the pass into Kovacic, James at Rb passed back to their CB and they recycled. However, in the second half Lundstram was on tired legs and they were able to play the ball into Kovacic who had time on the ball. In the first half it was OK since there was a good press but it meant the first goal came from Kovacic running over the top and Stevens being too far from Egan and Lundstram being pressed up the pitch. Now normally I would say Egan should cover that but he was instructed to man mark the ball into Abraham so therefore the only player left that can cover is Norwood. Thats the way I see it.

 

[Badger Blade]

Potentially a strength of Ampadu, being a defender by trade and knowing where needs covering and being more naturally inclined to do it. It's all about being aware enough to read the threat. If Egan goes with Abraham, Norwood slots into the gap or Stevens pushes Egan across and takes Abraham himself with Lundstram then going into Stevens' position

A lot rests on wing backs in the current system and where they are, Max Lowe's performance against Chelsea chief among it. If they're not where they should be, the left and right centre backs are covering, and if they're out of position, who's covering then? Same problem

I do wonder how well some of our players interpret the game and whether they're completely flummoxed by someone doing anything remotely unexpected, particularly from some of the talent on offer further up the league. Our tactics when we go forward aren't unexpected any more but then for our goal, we took Chelsea by surprise, we've got to keep reinventing ourselves, even if it's very slightly.

 

[BushBlade]

I'll put it into context, on Chelsea's right side they had James at Rb, Kovacic at RCM and ziyech at RW. When we settled back into our block, it was Lundstrams job to press James at Rb, Max Lowe to mark the feet ball to Ziyech and then Enda Stevens to mark the long ball of the Channel while supporting Lowe. When Lundstram pressed well and stopped the pass into Kovacic, James at Rb passed back to their CB and they recycled. However, in the second half Lundstram was on tired legs and they were able to play the ball into Kovacic who had time on the ball. In the first half it was OK since there was a good press but it meant the first goal came from Kovacic running over the top and Stevens being too far from Egan and Lundstram being pressed up the pitch. Now normally I would say Egan should cover that but he was instructed to man mark the ball into Abraham so therefore the only player left that can cover is Norwood. Thats the way I see it.

I’m not going to argue, I suspect your football education far exceeds mine

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

In this picture, Kovacic is starting to make his run. Chelseas right side has rotated about, which they did very well and made it hard to pick up men, which fair enough. However, Stevens is definitely caught out here, and the wrong side of his man, so I put my hands up and say 70% of this goal goes to him. However, if u look at Norwoods positioning, for me he is way too far up for a central midfielder and should be watching the kovacic run, rather than the ball. When the ball is played, Norwood is then see jogging back to the edge of the box where Abraham is free. I said Egan was marking him but he had to cover Bashs man who came across so, and to be fair to Abraham he found the space well. However, if Norwood was deeper and rapid to get back in, I think he puts Abraham under pressure. Like I said, I mostly blame Enda here, but you have to ask questions of Norwoods positioning

 

[sitwell]

Dress it up how you want but as with others he isnt Premiership quality

9th in the league says he is , why arent people looking at Berges contribution ? He is offering far less at both ends. Not saying he houldnt be playing or he isnt a decent player but he isnt doing it and our results are the proof. Norwood was by far our best midfielder at Chelsea but seems to be the scapegoat ,if Norwood didnt make the pass of the game we dont score but that gets overlooked. I would definitely be planning our team around him rather than berge or Lundstram.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

9th in the league says he is , why arent people looking at Berges contribution ? He is offering far less at both ends. Not saying he houldnt be playing or he isnt a decent player but he isnt doing it and our results are the proof. Norwood was by far our best midfielder at Chelsea but seems to be the scapegoat ,if Norwood didnt make the pass of the game we dont score but that gets overlooked. I would definitely be planning our team around him rather than berge or Lundstram.

A midfielder isn't just about how good they can deliver a ball on a plate. Not here to be hater, I just want to educate on the beautiful game --- Norwood drops marks in defending

 

[bertieblade]

Norwood unfortunately leaves himself open to criticism.

He sits too deep

He is slow

He rarely plays a defence splitting ball as most of his passes go wide to wingbacks who by their nature at the moment recycle it until he gets it back

He loses his man too frequently

He gives the ball away in dangerous positions

When he is on his game he still requires someone to cover the man he has lost and rarely makes a tackle.

Rarely misses the first man when taking a corner

He is a good player when we are playing well as it gives him more time on the ball but unfortunately at the moment he is a liability

 

[sitwell]

Norwood unfortunately leaves himself open to criticism.

He sits too deep

He is slow

He rarely plays a defence splitting ball as most of his passes go wide to wingbacks who by their nature at the moment recycle it until he gets it back

He loses his man too frequently

He gives the ball away in dangerous positions

When he is on his game he still requires someone to cover the man he has lost and rarely makes a tackle.

Rarely misses the first man when taking a corner

He is a good player when we are playing well as it gives him more time on the ball but unfortunately at the moment he is a liability

Utter bollocks

 

[sitwell]

A midfielder isn't just about how good they can deliver a ball on a plate. Not here to be hater, I just want to educate on the beautiful game --- Norwood drops marks in defending

Educate (not patronise) me on Berge then when he plays centre mid.

 

[bertieblade]

Entitled to an opinion and feel I can justify most of them, his biggest problem is sitting too deep, which means that the whole team play too deep. When Berge plays in his role we are some 15 yards further up the field.

My berge comment was typed unaware of your request to the other poster

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

Educate (not patronise) me on Berge then when he plays centre mid.

Well firstly, Its situational for me, and I prefer Ampadu there anyway. I think berge would of done very well at the weekend, and he should marked the feet ball to Abraham since they're a good body type match up, giving Egan more freedom to cover his 2 CBs. Now thats not me saying Norwood should get dropped, thats me saying Berge fit the role more and Wilder got the tactic wrong. Against other times, say Wolves, I would prefer Norwood due to the low depth and block of Wolves and him being able to play the right pass and dictate the play through Wolves. This isn't a thread of me scrutinising Norwood as a player, this is me explaing tactics and the play of a game, im sorry if you took it like that

 

[sitwell]

Well firstly, Its situational for me, and I prefer Ampadu there anyway. I think berge would of done very well at the weekend, and he should marked the feet ball to Abraham since they're a good body type match up, giving Egan more freedom to cover his 2 CBs. Now thats not me saying Norwood should get dropped, thats me saying Berge fit the role more and Wilder got the tactic wrong. Against other times, say Wolves, I would prefer Norwood due to the low depth and block of Wolves and him being able to play the right pass and dictate the play through Wolves. This isn't a thread of me scrutinising Norwood as a player, this is me explaing tactics and the play of a game, im sorry if you took it like that

Ampadu and Berge have both played there and give us absolutely nothing going forward. Ampadu covered well ,I think Berge is very poor at it. We have offered nothing attacking wise when either play in that position either from through balls or using the wing backs. Now we have been playing the likes of Liverpool and Man City ,but against the likes of West ham or WBA we will have no chance if either of those 2 play there. Just look at the results ,we have never won when Norwood hasnt started and look how we completely fell apart when he came off at Chelsea. He is much better with Berge and Fleck to the side of him ,but he should be starting every game there.

 

[bertieblade]

Assuming all players fit our best midfield is Ampadu in the centre flanked by Berge and Fleck with possibly mcgoldrick at the tip of the diamond and whoever is on form up top. Rotate to Take Mcgoldrick off and push Berge and Fleck further forward when we bring on another striker to have two up front.
Either way at the moment Norwood is not in the team.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

Ampadu and Berge have both played there and give us absolutely nothing going forward. Ampadu covered well ,I think Berge is very poor at it. We have offered nothing attacking wise when either play in that position either from through balls or using the wing backs. Now we have been playing the likes of Liverpool and Man City ,but against the likes of West ham or WBA we will have no chance if either of those 2 play there. Just look at the results ,we have never won when Norwood hasnt started and look how we completely fell apart when he came off at Chelsea. He is much better with Berge and Fleck to the side of him ,but he should be starting every game there.

I completely agree that against teams like West Ham/Brom Norwood should start, as he is much better at playing passes that break down them teams. However with the teams like Liverpool and City, ampadu played very well and filled the gaps that we needed him too, and unfortunately we conceded from 2 crosses, something I dont hold to Ampadu. Furthermore, Ampadu actually came out with the ball a couple of times and played the right pass, showing he can build an attack from his interception. When you say fall apart agasint Chelsea, it was more to do with the manner of the game being out of reach by then

 

[sitwell]

Entitled to an opinion and feel I can justify most of them, his biggest problem is sitting too deep, which means that the whole team play too deep. When Berge plays in his role we are some 15 yards further up the field.

My berge comment was typed unaware of your request to the other poster

How many goals have we scored from open play when Berge has played centre Mid ?

 

[bertieblade]

How many goals have we scored full stop.

 

[GeorgeLColdwell]

How many goals have we scored from open play when Berge has played centre Mid ?

That's not my point. If you put it into perspective, the livepool and city game we played with Ampadu and conceded 2 goals. 2 GOALS against last years powerhouses. Then we start with Norwood and concede 4 goals. Now obviously not all them goals are down to Norwood but all your looking at are the stats. I'm not here to say if Norwood is good/bad/dropped ect. I'm here to say the thing I've noticed about him. This isn't a forum to say which CDM is better, it's a forum to say what've i seen about him. If you can't accept the fact that Norwood lacks something, then take your argumentative comments and shove em in some other forum where they're discussing the lineup of the midfield

 

[bertieblade]

Norwood has scored one goal ( a penalty ) and provided one assist in his 43 premiership appearances.
The team have scored minimal goals no matter who is playing in centre midfield, I just feel that he is too much of a luxury player to be played at the moment.