Norwood - The elephant in the room.

[CarlMcBlade]

Look, even if you factor in the brilliance of the opposition this season, and our inability to cope with the pace and power of the Prem. The most forgiving feature of the top division is that most teams will allow you to play…If want to…Sadly it’s seems we don’t want to.
It’s looking very much like the three promoted sides are going to get relegated, but at least (for all their failings) Burnley and Luton are giving it go. It’s utterly unforgivable for any Sheffield United team to surrender in such an insipid way.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Norwood was the player who made the highest amount of passes (72) yesterday. In terms of pass completion percentage he was lower than normal (67%), although those around him weren't much better. Bournemouth were aware of his importance and especially first half restricted his impact by marking him when we tried passing it out from the back.

Norwood's fans recognise that he does good things for the team. He never hides, always tries to make himself available for a pass and when given time he's got the quality to distribute with good accuracy. Maybe most of us can agree on this.

So why do other fans feel he's currently not offering enough? What are the situations where we'd benefit more from playing a player with more mobility and carrying ability?

Some situations where Norwood got on the ball first half:

16' A ping out to Bogle...


Why doesn't it work? Bournemouth have everybody back and are prepared for it, and although the accuracy is good, by the time the pass arrives at Bogle's head, Bournemouth have got four players in position to deal with the second ball:



*
*

23' Wes throws it quickly out to Norwood. Bournemouth have four players who've not yet got back to defend, so this is a promising situation! What we want here is our guy bombing forward on the ball, teammates running into space and launching a counter attack. On this occasion Norwood does carry the ball for a bit AND finds a teammate (Souza) running forward...



Why doesn't it work? Norwood shows his lack of pace when carrying, his forward pass is a bit loose and Souza also lacks the pace to get away from his tracker. Souza decides to stop and play it backwards:



*
*

33' Robinson wins the ball and finds Norwood. He punts it upfield...



Why doesn't it work? Bournemouth's defenders easily deals with it. Norwood has composure in some situations, but if he's not completely aware of what is around him, he tends to get rid of it, obviously being worried he'd be robbed of the ball. Some playmakers (Coutts was one, young Arblaster is another) has the ability to shield the ball and create space for themselves, even in tight situations. They may have been able to do that in the above situation, and then found either Thomas or McAtee in good positions inside/forward.



*
*

41' Another semi-promising situation as Norwood gets on the ball and Bournemouth have some players in our half and we have a few running forward. Again, there'd be potential for a mobile player to run into space on the ball and see what options open up....



Why doesn't it work? Norwood realises he won't get away from the guy tracking him and looks for someone to come short for the ball. McAtee tries to help him, but is tackled by a centre half:



*

So - I think we should acknowledge that Norwood still does good things for the team. I'm a bit uneasy about singling him out when there are others not performing. And we don't have many options. Maybe the team would collapse on occasions without his leadership and experience?

But currently the team lacks the qualities that may have compensated for what he doesn't offer. Although the above situations are not huge errors, nothing like Wes' obviously, I think we need to find out if there are ways to improve our attacking play. There's something wrong when we can't get our creative/skilful players involved and hardly get a shot on target, at home, against rival teams.

 

[Yellarbellyblade]

I wasn’t using it to excuse him , more a relevant time to point it out… had we been a little more competitive I suspect the officials would have got a little more heat than just me ranting at them

True enough. We didn’t lose because the ref was shite and I think you’re right that he avoided more grief because we were so inept.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

For me, the biggest problem with Norwood is that he excelled when we overloaded. In our promotion season and first season back in the top flight Norwood could hit his cross field ping to the top right of the pitch knowing that Baldock and Basham would both be there or there abouts. Even then Sharp and Lundstram would be ready to pick up any second balls. Same with the left side. Stevens and O'Connell would be the intended targets and Didsy and Fleck would be waiting to pick off the second balls.

Norwood keeps trying to play this way but he has slow wing backs he's aiming to reach, no overlapping centre back, an isolated striker who doesn't fight for the ball and won't be anywhere near second balls of the wing backs if they do get to it. Souza is immobile and Hamer and McAtee don't fight for the second ball either.

This is for me why Paul Coutts was a superior player. Coutts could track back, tackle and defend, something Norwood can't do due to his lack of pace. He played a mixed bag of passes. Long balls, simple side passes, through balls, one-twos. He'd also carry the ball or hold it up.

Norwood is a one trick pony whose trick no longer works as we aren't playing to it's strengths and he doesn't seem to know how else to play.

 

[Rudders]

For me, the biggest problem with Norwood is that he excelled when we overloaded. In our promotion season and first season back in the top flight Norwood could hit his cross field ping to the top right of the pitch knowing that Baldock and Basham would both be there or there abouts. Even then Sharp and Lundstram would be ready to pick up any second balls. Same with the left side. Stevens and O'Connell would be the intended targets and Didsy and Fleck would be waiting to pick off the second balls.

Norwood keeps trying to play this way but he has slow wing backs he's aiming to reach, no overlapping centre back, an isolated striker who doesn't fight for the ball and won't be anywhere near second balls of the wing backs if they do get to it. Souza is immobile and Hamer and McAtee don't fight for the second ball either.

This is for me why Paul Coutts was a superior player. Coutts could track back, tackle and defend, something Norwood can't do due to his lack of pace. He played a mixed bag of passes. Long balls, simple side passes, through balls, one-twos. He'd also carry the ball or hold it up.

Norwood is a one trick pony whose trick no longer works as we aren't playing to it's strengths and he doesn't seem to know how else to play.

Which points to the wider problem - 5 at the back without 2 incredible goal scoring full backs doesnt work, it also doesnt work without attacking wide centre backs. We only have Bogle and maybe Anel who fit those characteristics.
Play 4 at the back, get extra bodies into midfield and then lets see how Norwood plays - probably better

 

[Torrix1889]

I feel sorry for Souza and Hamer playing with Norwood...

Fixed it

 

[Pintor75]

Norwood should have been replaced after we came down last time, proved that when Doyle & McAtee gor together, funny how 3 teams ditched him on getting promoted, yet we still play him. Also why doesn't Hecky ever bring him off?

 

[haich1889]

Despite his leadership qualities, and his amazing history with the club, he is currently the cause for players like Hamer and Souza playing out of position.

The only successful partnership he has enjoyed was with Fleck, and that seems unlikely to be the answer. Is it time to bench him and give the manager and newer players the opportunity to play without the deference to Norwoods seniority?

I don’t see Norwood as the solution to our current problems. I don’t see Norwood as the answer to the clubs future prospects, despite his history.

Not quick enough, big enough, no presence, thinks he has to pass every ball like Hoddle, never scores free kicks or shots outside area, gets by passed by opposition midfielders, constantly waving his arms around or apologising for a bad pass or telling everyone to slow down when what we actually need is urgency.
There's a reason why Brighton & Fulham said nay in the Prem for Nogood.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

For me, the biggest problem with Norwood is that he excelled when we overloaded. In our promotion season and first season back in the top flight Norwood could hit his cross field ping to the top right of the pitch knowing that Baldock and Basham would both be there or there abouts. Even then Sharp and Lundstram would be ready to pick up any second balls. Same with the left side. Stevens and O'Connell would be the intended targets and Didsy and Fleck would be waiting to pick off the second balls.

Norwood keeps trying to play this way but he has slow wing backs he's aiming to reach, no overlapping centre back, an isolated striker who doesn't fight for the ball and won't be anywhere near second balls of the wing backs if they do get to it. Souza is immobile and Hamer and McAtee don't fight for the second ball either.

This is for me why Paul Coutts was a superior player. Coutts could track back, tackle and defend, something Norwood can't do due to his lack of pace. He played a mixed bag of passes. Long balls, simple side passes, through balls, one-twos. He'd also carry the ball or hold it up.

Norwood is a one trick pony whose trick no longer works as we aren't playing to it's strengths and he doesn't seem to know how else to play.

Have a like for bringing Coutts into the conversation, and a ray of sunshine pierces through the murky clouds and brings a smile and much needed warmth to our world of misery and indifference. God bless you Couttsy you were mighty fine!

Never gives the ball awaaaaay....

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Which points to the wider problem - 5 at the back without 2 incredible goal scoring full backs doesnt work, it also doesnt work without attacking wide centre backs. We only have Bogle and maybe Anel who fit those characteristics.
Play 4 at the back, get extra bodies into midfield and then lets see how Norwood plays - probably better

I agree. We could play 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 with Bogle/Traore (for arguments sakw), as wingers, which would play to their strengths and bypass their weaknesses, then either Norwood/Souza alongside McAtee/Hamer, unless we went one up front, where McAtee could play behind the lone striker. Our bench would also look far healthier with these options.

My issue with this is that if Hecky did go 4-4-2 then it would be nailed on for Norwood and Souza to play in the middle with Hamer/McAtee out wide out of positions and Bogle on the other wing. This would create nothing and we'd remain awful as McAtee would be lost our wide and Norwood and Souza would remain ineffective together.

 

[Pedro's Winger]

Souza contributes nothing, Hamer runs around a bit but rarely affects the game.
At least Norwood wants the ball and can often pass it to another player in red and white, sometimes even forward.
He's never been particularly mobile but in terms of ball playing ability he's the best midfielder we have.
The very, very obvious need this season was for mobility and pace in midfield to play alongside Norwood but apparently we can't acquire those kind of players because we don't do obvious things like that.

 

[Torrix1889]

At least Norwood wants the ball and can often pass it to another player in red and white, sometimes even forward.

He can pass it to a team mate if that is backwards and less than 5 yards and when he plays it forwards it is 9 times out of 10 that aimless clip down the channel direct to their fullback. And as for beating the first man at a corner or a free kick......woeful.

 

[Sean Thornton]

He can pass it to a team mate if that is backwards and less than 5 yards and when he plays it forwards it is 9 times out of 10 that aimless clip down the channel direct to their fullback. And as for beating the first man at a corner or a free kick......woeful.

But, but but, the passing stats……

 

[SUFCScorecard]

Souza contributes nothing, Hamer runs around a bit but rarely affects the game.
At least Norwood wants the ball and can often pass it to another player in red and white, sometimes even forward.
He's never been particularly mobile but in terms of ball playing ability he's the best midfielder we have.
The very, very obvious need this season was for mobility and pace in midfield to play alongside Norwood but apparently we can't acquire those kind of players because we don't do obvious things like that.

We did buy a mobile, quality DM who can carry the ball and pass well. Unfortunately for some reason Hecky has decided to try and turn him into the next Ndiaye.

 

[haich1889]

Norwood was the player who made the highest amount of passes (72) yesterday. In terms of pass completion percentage he was lower than normal (67%), although those around him weren't much better. Bournemouth were aware of his importance and especially first half restricted his impact by marking him when we tried passing it out from the back.

Norwood's fans recognise that he does good things for the team. He never hides, always tries to make himself available for a pass and when given time he's got the quality to distribute with good accuracy. Maybe most of us can agree on this.

So why do other fans feel he's currently not offering enough? What are the situations where we'd benefit more from playing a player with more mobility and carrying ability?

Some situations where Norwood got on the ball first half:

16' A ping out to Bogle...
View attachment 175230

Why doesn't it work? Bournemouth have everybody back and are prepared for it, and although the accuracy is good, by the time the pass arrives at Bogle's head, Bournemouth have got four players in position to deal with the second ball:

View attachment 175231

*
*

23' Wes throws it quickly out to Norwood. Bournemouth have four players who've not yet got back to defend, so this is a promising situation! What we want here is our guy bombing forward on the ball, teammates running into space and launching a counter attack. On this occasion Norwood does carry the ball for a bit AND finds a teammate (Souza) running forward...

View attachment 175232

Why doesn't it work? Norwood shows his lack of pace when carrying, his forward pass is a bit loose and Souza also lacks the pace to get away from his tracker. Souza decides to stop and play it backwards:

View attachment 175233

*
*

33' Robinson wins the ball and finds Norwood. He punts it upfield...

View attachment 175236

Why doesn't it work? Bournemouth's defenders easily deals with it. Norwood has composure in some situations, but if he's not completely aware of what is around him, he tends to get rid of it, obviously being worried he'd be robbed of the ball. Some playmakers (Coutts was one, young Arblaster is another) has the ability to shield the ball and create space for themselves, even in tight situations. They may have been able to do that in the above situation, and then found either Thomas or McAtee in good positions inside/forward.

View attachment 175234

*
*

41' Another semi-promising situation as Norwood gets on the ball and Bournemouth have some players in our half and we have a few running forward. Again, there'd be potential for a mobile player to run into space on the ball and see what options open up....

View attachment 175237

Why doesn't it work? Norwood realises he won't get away from the guy tracking him and looks for someone to come short for the ball. McAtee tries to help him, but is tackled by a centre half:

View attachment 175238

*

So - I think we should acknowledge that Norwood still does good things for the team. I'm a bit uneasy about singling him out when there are others not performing. And we don't have many options. Maybe the team would collapse on occasions without his leadership and experience?

But currently the team lacks the qualities that may have compensated for what he doesn't offer. Although the above situations are not huge errors, nothing like Wes' obviously, I think we need to find out if there are ways to improve our attacking play. There's something wrong when we can't get our creative/skilful players involved and hardly get a shot on target, at home, against rival teams.

Is this the stats analysis Hecky was looking at pre press conference when he said we were doing ok???

 

[Bergen Blade]

Is this the stats analysis Hecky was looking at pre press conference when he said we were doing ok???

The conclusion is quite the opposite, there's an urgent need for changes imo. I tried to make that point while staying respectful towards Norwood and his fans.

 

[Pedro's Winger]

He can pass it to a team mate if that is backwards and less than 5 yards and when he plays it forwards it is 9 times out of 10 that aimless clip down the channel direct to their fullback. And as for beating the first man at a corner or a free kick......woeful.

Sorry but the first part of that comment clearly identifies Souza, not Norwood. He's offering nothing.
It isn't 9 times out of 10 but even if it were the pass to Baldock in the last minute on Saturday was more than Souza's done all season.
There's a reason why Norwood continues to play as he is the only potential fulcrum in the midfield.
It's generally the folk who know little about football that see him as our main problem.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Sorry but the first part of that comment clearly identifies Souza, not Norwood. He's offering nothing.
It isn't 9 times out of 10 but even if it were the pass to Baldock in the last minute on Saturday was more than Souza's done all season.
There's a reason why Norwood continues to play as he is the only potential fulcrum in the midfield.
It's generally the folk who know little about football that see him as our main problem.

Norwood continues to play because Hecky thinks he's still capable and/or he doesn't have faith in the other options.

We tried coping without Norwood ten times last season, and won all ten. Why don't you want to see if that change can bring different dynamics to a team that is currently looking like dying a slow death, similar to our last season in the PL?

 

[SUFCScorecard]

Norwood continues to play because Hecky thinks he's still capable and/or he doesn't have faith in the other options.

We tried coping without Norwood ten times last season, and won all ten. Why don't you want to see if that change can bring different dynamics to a team that is currently looking like dying a slow death, similar to our last season in the PL?

I don't think the plan was to rely on Norwood this season. Unfortunately injuries/recruitment have dictated that he has to play. He still offers a lot, but his well known weaknesses are still there. The club has been trying to move on from Norwood since they bought Berge, but Norwood keeps on showing his usefulness either by being available or reliable in what he offers (v.good in champ, nearly good enough in the PL).

Norwood is at his best for us against a team that sits back and lets us play.....basically no-one in the PL. He is very good at dictating play when given the space, and much better defensively than his detractors give him credit for.

Unfortunately we have to play him until January because of a lack of options. Souza is a total bust and shouldn't be anywhere near the 1st XI (In fact if you offered me 3m in January I'd bite your hand off and laugh all the way to the bank).

Hamer should be deeper, but we still need bodies in midfield, and Norwood is 80% of a PL midfielder which is better than any the other alternatives.

 

[Charlieblade]

I don't think the plan was to rely on Norwood this season. Unfortunately injuries/recruitment have dictated that he has to play. He still offers a lot, but his well known weaknesses are still there. The club has been trying to move on from Norwood since they bought Berge, but Norwood keeps on showing his usefulness either by being available or reliable in what he offers (v.good in champ, nearly good enough in the PL).

Norwood is at his best for us against a team that sits back and lets us play.....basically no-one in the PL. He is very good at dictating play when given the space, and much better defensively than his detractors give him credit for.

Unfortunately we have to play him until January because of a lack of options. Souza is a total bust and shouldn't be anywhere near the 1st XI (In fact if you offered me 3m in January I'd bite your hand off and laugh all the way to the bank).

Hamer should be deeper, but we still need bodies in midfield, and Norwood is 80% of a PL midfielder which is better than any the other alternatives.

I don’t see Norwood as the player he was. He was replaced by Doyle at championship level.

Replace him with Hamer as CDM, and use Norwood sparingly for a late cameo from the bench.
Regarding midfielders, we can use McAtee, Bogle, Osborn, or even Ahmedhodzic or Trusty to fill those gaps..

Even as big Hecky supporter, I recognize the need to shake things up a bit, even if he doesn’t.

 

[Revolution]

I don't think the plan was to rely on Norwood this season. Unfortunately injuries/recruitment have dictated that he has to play. He still offers a lot, but his well known weaknesses are still there. The club has been trying to move on from Norwood since they bought Berge, but Norwood keeps on showing his usefulness either by being available or reliable in what he offers (v.good in champ, nearly good enough in the PL).

Norwood is at his best for us against a team that sits back and lets us play.....basically no-one in the PL. He is very good at dictating play when given the space, and much better defensively than his detractors give him credit for.

Unfortunately we have to play him until January because of a lack of options. Souza is a total bust and shouldn't be anywhere near the 1st XI (In fact if you offered me 3m in January I'd bite your hand off and laugh all the way to the bank).

Hamer should be deeper, but we still need bodies in midfield, and Norwood is 80% of a PL midfielder which is better than any the other alternatives.

I think that is a very optimistic view of the current state of Norwood’s game.

I disagree with your last sentence. I was against him being re signed for fitness reasons but a fit Osborn is a better option than Norwood (or Souza) as he actually moves around and has energy.

 

[Torrix1889]

Sorry but the first part of that comment clearly identifies Souza, not Norwood. He's offering nothing.
It isn't 9 times out of 10 but even if it were the pass to Baldock in the last minute on Saturday was more than Souza's done all season.
There's a reason why Norwood continues to play as he is the only potential fulcrum in the midfield.
It's generally the folk who know little about football that see him as our main problem.

As Bergen Blade says below, when Norwood was dropped for Doyle last year it turned our season around as Boro were closing in...

Norwood continues to play because we don't have a Doyle option this year, no other reason...

He may be better if we dropped Souza, (or the other way around) but there's very little evidence to support either option.

Still, if you are happy watching Norwood play aimless balls, failing to beat the first man from crossess and corners and being outpaced by a snail then crack on....you do know more about football than the rest of us anyway...

 

[Blademan89]

To be fair to Norwood his style of play and effectiveness has become redundant ever since we stopped playing overlapping centerbacks and high wingback. It's no coincidence that his game has been on a slide ever since the style of play had changed.

He gets the ball now turns and who does he have to pass too ? No one is showing or wants to show, everyone hides behind their man. Wingback have become more like deep sitting full backs... so he gets the ball looks up and nothing then he's getting pressed quickly by 1 or 2 men and has no choice but to clip ot down channel in hope someone runs onto it.. can't blame him wither when only option of a pass is souza.

Now I'm not saying he should be starting or playing, the opposite actually. Hes perfectly fine to be on the bench as an option and to add depth, but it's the style of play and tactics (or lack of) that has exposed his weaknesses (athleticism, defending etc).

Which brings us back to the management and the style of play and tactics he sets out.

 

[s20Blade]

Why oh why does he sit deep just in front of the defence? God knows how many we've conceded as a result of him losing the ball there.

 

[sufc323]

To be fair to Norwood his style of play and effectiveness has become redundant ever since we stopped playing overlapping centerbacks and high wingback. It's no coincidence that his game has been on a slide ever since the style of play had changed.

He gets the ball now turns and who does he have to pass too ? No one is showing or wants to show, everyone hides behind their man. Wingback have become more like deep sitting full backs... so he gets the ball looks up and nothing then he's getting pressed quickly by 1 or 2 men and has no choice but to clip ot down channel in hope someone runs onto it.. can't blame him wither when only option of a pass is souza.

Now I'm not saying he should be starting or playing, the opposite actually. Hes perfectly fine to be on the bench as an option and to add depth, but it's the style of play and tactics (or lack of) that has exposed his weaknesses (athleticism, defending etc).

Which brings us back to the management and the style of play and tactics he sets out.

Spot on. He's great at what he can do and we'll look back at him as one of, if not the best midfielder we've had in the past 30 years, but right now his style of play is holding us back and did in the last season in the Prem.

It's no coincidence that we looked more athletic and dynamic when he got dropped for Doyle in March, but the issue now is who do we have to replace him? Personally, I'd drop Hamer further back as he was at Coventry and give the midfield anchor role to Souza and let him be a Monty and do all the dirty work.

 

[Conroy]

As Bergen Blade detailed more eloquently than I ever could, there is no longer any outlet for Norwood compared to last season, no one who is composed on the ball such as Berge, Ndiaye or Doyle and you need these type of players around you and we lose the ability to keep the ball higher up the pitch.

I know for a fact that because I was a shit outfield player, I'd be the last option to pass to, and I think we have something similar here to a certain degree.

Norwood is not to blame, it's the reduction in quality around him which is and the decision not to sign Doyle is a key factor as Norwood can put a tackle in; I can see the reason in letting Berge and Ndiaye go from a financial perspective and maybe in hindsight we could have squeezed those few extra points out of games if we'd have kept them...but that's history.

Conclusion: No one in current squad can replace Norwood in our current style.
Answer: Not a clue...

 

[Blademan89]

Spot on. He's great at what he can do and we'll look back at him as one of, if not the best midfielder we've had in the past 30 years, but right now his style of play is holding us back and did in the last season in the Prem.

It's no coincidence that we looked more athletic and dynamic when he got dropped for Doyle in March, but the issue now is who do we have to replace him? Personally, I'd drop Hamer further back as he was at Coventry and give the midfield anchor role to Souza and let him be a Monty and do all the dirty work.

To be honest, whilst ever our wingback are playing like fullbacks and getting pinned back then I don't think we should be playing with 2 dms.. as when we get the ball there's no outlet to attack and our team is not blessed with pace to play counter attacking.

I agree hamer needs to be played in the position he excelled in last couple of seasons, to try an shoehorn him else where is criminal, as its not working and he was our "marquee" summer signing and his position should be prioritised, rather than trying to have Norwood and souza play dm together.

The idea of the 2 dms is so the wingback can be brave and play High up the pitch and neither are doing that (also doesn't help that the dms are not mobile enough to get across and cover them).

This is one of the main reasons we are currently watching us lump it long to a 5ft 8 striker (who's not a hold up player). There's no other outball.

 

[Pintor75]

The lack of a left sided player leaves anyone playing left back totally exposed, as seen on Saturday, Bournemouth seemed to run at us diagonally knowing that our weakness was in the middle, two players Norwood & Souza who are like tankers turning, therefore Thomas gets dragged in to cover and hey presto!
the worrying thing is I can see Hecky bringing Fleck in to try and plug this gap