Movement at Crewe

[1danewhitehouse]

Perhaps we should have signed Jason Holt? His off the ball movement was excellent. Shame he was so poor with the ball.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Great analysis Bergen.
This might already have been discussed, but I'd welcome your thoughts on Conor Sammon. I've been saying for weeks that I could'nt understand why he was dropped as I think he is the ideal foil for Sharp. I admit I don't get to see the away games but every time he's played at home I've been impressed.

When he signed him and Sharp I thought that Adkins would be trying to compose a team that would really fit Sharp's goalscoring qualities. Sammon has some of the attributes that Sharp lacks, i.e. some speed, height, and with his work rate he could make the runs that would cause disorder in opposition defences, for Sharp to exploit.

I think he did that ok, but a few things made Adkins reconsider

• Sammon's lack of goals
• home defeats to Bury and Colchester with them two starting
• struggling to compose a strong enough midfield with 4-4-2
• Done returning

I think Adkins wanted small strikers against Crewe's centre halves who were 6'4 and 6'5, but if Adkins sticks with 4-4-2 he'll no doubt try Sammon and Sharp together sooner or later.

Personally I struggle to find a midfield selection that looks well balanced in a 4-4-2.

 

[Rodders]

When he signed him and Sharp I thought that Adkins would be trying to compose a team that would really fit Sharp's goalscoring qualities. Sammon has some of the attributes that Sharp lacks, i.e. some speed, height, and with his work rate he could make the runs that would cause disorder in opposition defences, for Sharp to exploit.

I think he did that ok, but a few things made Adkins reconsider

• Sammon's lack of goals
• home defeats to Bury and Colchester with them two starting
• struggling to compose a strong enough midfield with 4-4-2
• Done returning

I think Adkins wanted small strikers against Crewe's centre halves who were 6'4 and 6'5, but if Adkins sticks with 4-4-2 he'll no doubt try Sammon and Sharp together sooner or later.

Personally I struggle to find a midfield selection that looks well balanced in a 4-4-2.

I thought Sammon and Sharp could have forged a brilliant partnership, as you say they complement each other so well. One that looks always capable of getting goals, not seen since probably Cresswell and Evans, or even Deane & Fjortoft. Sadly Sammon was sacrificed due to our abysmal midfield and now we look disjointed in both.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I thought Sammon and Sharp could have forged a brilliant partnership, as you say they complement each other so well. One that looks always capable of getting goals, not seen since probably Cresswell and Evans, or even Deane & Fjortoft. Sadly Sammon was sacrificed due to our abysmal midfield and now we look disjointed in both.

I also think Sharp&Sammon is a bit similar to Evans&Cresswell, but we'll struggle to compose a similar midfield to what we had back then.

 

[Guesty]

Perhaps we should have signed Jason Holt? His off the ball movement was excellent. Shame he was so poor with the ball.

More than on the ball, it was when the opposition had the ball that he was at his poorest. The home play-off game against Swindon was is death knell at the lane, we might as well have played a traffic cone in the centre of the park.

 

[robbiez666]

we had four potential strikers playing on Saturday.

Done hasn't played there for long so partially excuses. The problem is, when Sharp makes a run, as you've shown, no one runs into the space. Baxter is just bloody lazy. fullstop. That kind of line-up should work well as when the two up top run the channels they drag a CB out. It's up to the winger on the other side or CM to run into that space. They don't. They stand around waiting for Christmas. It's either the lack of a footballing brain or laziness. I'm going with the latter.

Both Baxter and Adams appeared to be not holding the width and dropping inside. Therefore, just causing the centre to be overrun. No one makes runs or runs with any purpose. No one reads the game and takes a chance.

When the defence have the ball the midfield are static, when the midfield have the ball the forward players and fullbacks are static. It's all static. It's like watching Arsenal parade around and pass sideways when they're having one of there 'no one wants to shoot' spells. Arsenal have the players who can make something out of nothing though.

You need to work to make openings. they're playing against poor CBs. Ched used to pull them all over the shop. Most of our current crop are just content to wait for the ball to be played to their feet and then lay off an easy pass. They need to be forced in training to pass and move and always be on their toes. They shouldn't really stop unless the ball is out of play. In youth football, we used to have a training session where, if you were static, you'd be punished. I dread to think what they do in training. Short sideways passing by the look of it.

Ours barely ever start.

 

[Bergen Blade]

We must keep trying to find something that works. Agree 100%.

Scougalls deficiencies were less apparent or less of a problem then because he had a good defence behind him and more help in midfield - 5 across the middle and at times a false 9 too. Now we have a porous defence and less bodies in the middle. We cannot hide his weaknesses. The consensus seems to be he brings less to the table than any other CM. I would prefer to try and build around players with more upside (though they aren't much better).

I'm advocating the same formation now, but within a setup that focuses slightly more on creating more, attacking more. We'll soon be able to field 4 of the same back 5, all of whom have played football at a higher level than the current. With more work rate in front of them I'm hopeful their job will get easier than it has been.

Scougall didn't have a great game at Oldham, but he did get the assist; he was the one who played the through ball to Wallace who set up Sharp for a sitter; and he missed a sitter himself, hitting the post after a run into the box. Both Basham's goals for us have been from making runs into the box, and there's potential in him to get more. Those two aren't great at spraying passes around from deep, but we are crying out for their movement and work rate at the moment.

 

[BushBlade]

I'm advocating the same formation now, but within a setup that focuses slightly more on creating more, attacking more. We'll soon be able to field 4 of the same back 5, all of whom have played football at a higher level than the current. With more work rate in front of them I'm hopeful their job will get easier than it has been.

Scougall didn't have a great game at Oldham, but he did get the assist; he was the one who played the through ball to Wallace who set up Sharp for a sitter; and he missed a sitter himself, hitting the post after a run into the box. Both Basham's goals for us have been from making runs into the box, and there's potential in him to get more. Those two aren't great at spraying passes around from deep, but we are crying out for their movement and work rate at the moment.

I don't know why we faff about trying to play a passing game with a 442 formation when most of our opponents just stick five in midfield. NA has brought in Sharp and Sammon so he's committed to playing 442.
I think he's got two options, play Baxter as a proper 10 to feed Sharp like Keogh did at Scunny, if he's insisting on playing some variance of 433, or play Sammon and Sharp but go more direct and get the ball to them more quickly.

 

[Lane Ender]

Personally I think we over-play ,too many passes and we lose momentum. Maybe oK in the next league ( I don't like it myself though) ,reminiscent of Weir at the moment ,but now we have attackers and we have to get the ball to them earlier and use the width.

Like we did for the first half dozen games then
Why did we change it?

 

[judge]

He was tripping, ready to run in behind, but there never were rarely any space to run into after the first ten minutes, and only failed attempts at through balls. Against Millwall he played wide midfield in a 4-4-2, not a position that suits him, in my opinion, and therefore not a good reason to write him off. He was ineffective against Crewe, but I think our poor tempo and poorly balanced midfield made it difficult for him.

oh not again.,first baxter now done will our players ever learn ?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Why can't we wait and see what happens if we get the balance right some day, before writing these players off?

Exactly

 

[Sharpestblade]

I think Adkins had the balance right earlier in the season when the ball was played forward very quickly by-passing the opposition midfield. Surely this is the way forward now ie. as soon as the runs are made the ball needs releasing forward. Our front 4 are more than good enough to score against most defences. No point in keeping possession in our own half and risk conceding goals, much better to play in their half and build pressure.

 

[Blade56]

 

[groveblade]

I think people are going over the top with ridiculing and abusing the players. It is too simplistic to complain about a lack of effort. It is ignorant to say they're all crap. We lack balance, and at the moment mobility is the main problem.


I really like your rational and positive approach, Bergen. I also completely agree that a lack of mobility and pace in midfield is a glaring deficiency at the moment. I was at Crewe though, and it was impossible for me personally to keep a lid on my frustration at such a crap, disinterested, spineless and lazy performance. (I waited 'til after the final whistle to criticise though - although from 5 mins into the 2nd half I was shouting for Adkins to change things, and extolling more effort from the players - as they absolutely sleepwalked into defeat.....) Many around me were doing the same.

As I think some of the points I've quoted from you are things I'm currently potentially "guilty" of - I'd offer the following:

"I think people are going over the top with ridiculing and abusing the players"

Yes - I agree - but it is borne of frustration and watching many under par performances. (apart from the brain dead idiots, who are always like that (hyper critical and nasty), regardless of what division in and how we're playing).

It is too simplistic to complain about a lack of effort.

Don't agree with you here at all - in too many games we're outpaced, out-tackled, outfought = lack of effort pure and simple - these same players played so well in the cup runs - so what's happening in run of the mill league games?? At times it can be over complicated to go into the ins and outs of tactics too much.

It is ignorant to say they're all crap

Completely agree, and all players have a spectrum of performance and the challenge is to get them as close to the top as often as possible (lots of our players have played well at this level/in division above/in cup runs) BUT it's not ignorant to say they're often playing crap...we're underperforming badly at the moment and that's very worrying...

We lack balance, and at the moment mobility is the main problem.

Agree again - can't understand Coutts and Hammond and Baxter in same midfield!!! But even then, with a more determined winner's attitude, we should still be beating Crewe....

Anyway, onto the next battle and UTB!!

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

It is too simplistic to complain about a lack of effort.

I agree with your agreeing but I disagree with your disagreeing: Who wasn't trying against Crewe?

 

[groveblade]

I agree with your agreeing but I disagree with your disagreeing: Who wasn't trying against Crewe?

Firsty - I didn't say that anyone "wasn't trying" - but I am saying that there could have been much better effort:

Howard - should have been much more desperate and faster to get the ball back when we're losing late on. (remember Paddy Kenny?)
Basham - not being hard and strong enough and also not concentrating on basic long balls and letting his man run him down channels = lack of concentration/hardness = lack of effort/desire
Collins - as above
Baxter, Coutts, Hammond - not running about enough, forwards, backwards or sideways. Also taking easy options too often = lack of effort/guts/will to win
Sharp and Done (2nd half) - lack of good movement and too easy to be marked = lack of effort and thought.
Adams - could do with a bit more fitness but I'm not really blaming him as too often in 2nd half team got ball out to him and then seemed to just think "go on teenager, dig us out of the shit we're in"....

I count thinking and concentrating as a big part of the effort involved in a football match.

 

[jt64]

I think Adkins wanted small strikers against Crewe's centre halves who were 6'4 and 6'5, but if Adkins sticks with 4-4-2 he'll no doubt try Sammon and Sharp together sooner or later.

Personally I struggle to find a midfield selection that looks well balanced in a 4-4-2.

Yeah, I'm struggling to think of that myself. In lieu of never happening lineups that exclude Sharp (Sammon/Adams, Sammon/Done, Sammon lone centre forward) I would very much like to see Sammon and Sharp up top together but thinking how you can provide both width and not get crushed in midfield at the same time.

Maybe (assuming we have two other centre backs) we can have Basham sitting deep as a 6, with little/no forward responsibilities, Hammond/Baxter just ahead of him with Reed or Scougall as an attacking midfielder. Width comes purely from the full backs - now that we have Harris and Flynn available as alternatives to Freeman/Wallace with Brayford to return, we might be able to get two of them that can get forward and provide a cross?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Firsty - I didn't say that anyone "wasn't trying" - but I am saying that there could have been much better effort:

Howard - should have been much more desperate and faster to get the ball back when we're losing late on. (remember Paddy Kenny?)
Basham - not being hard and strong enough and also not concentrating on basic long balls and letting his man run him down channels = lack of concentration/hardness = lack of effort/desire
Collins - as above
Baxter, Coutts, Hammond - not running about enough, forwards, backwards or sideways. Also taking easy options too often = lack of effort/guts/will to win
Sharp and Done (2nd half) - lack of good movement and too easy to be marked = lack of effort and thought.
Adams - could do with a bit more fitness but I'm not really blaming him as too often in 2nd half team got ball out to him and then seemed to just think "go on teenager, dig us out of the shit we're in"....

I count thinking and concentrating as a big part of the effort involved in a football match.

Thanks for the response.

Howard's lack of urgency is very frustrating.

Basham - he ended up near us at one point and outfought and outthought his direct opponent in a potentially dangerous situation - that was the closest I saw him all afternoon. Generally though I think he puts himself about but is surprisingly weak in challenges. There's also a moment on the highlights where they get a very good chance and Basham I think blocks it. He certainly emerges in the ball and moves forward quickly wanting to get on with the game. I don't understand the point about letting his man run down channels. Not saying it's not valid - just that I don't really know what it means. Whatever it is with Bash I don't think it's lack of effort.

Collins - I think he plays at his limit emotionally and technically. This is not a criticism. I think he's done well this season.

The midfield: Baxter, as demonstrated in his celebration after he scored last week, has really changed into a much more committed player. There were also one or two off the ball incidents on Saturday. He might not have the agility but I think his level of commitment can't be faulted - not something I would have said last season.

Coutts - played with more urgency than usual (not hard) but sometimes I get the feeling it's all a bit beneath him. You can see this in the warm-ups where he doesn't really commit. This might be acceptable if he was strolling through games lighting the place up, but he's not. I do think he's slowly moving up the gears but he's still only in about second.

Hammond - who knows what's going on there? Maybe he's underestimated the difficulty of the job. I think the margins are small. If Usain Bolt sauntered (for him) down the track in 11s he wouldn't make regional qualifying never mind gold medals and world records. Maybe in microcosm Hammond is experiencing what a big team experiences in a cup game: a level of commitment compensating for (relatively minor) technical shortcomings/differences. Given his record you'd hope he'd change up soon. (The same seems to have happened with Edgar.) Someone should've been marking the player who scored - it looked like that someone was Hammond.

Someone had posted about recruiting eager and hungry young players from divisions below. That comes with its own risks but you can see the appeal when some of the players from higher divisions are not performing. Hopefully if it's tight at the end of the season - here's hoping - then that experience will tell in our favour.

More generally in midfield I don't mind (far from it) when we don't play the ball forwards: I'd rather keep it and wait for a better pass than take a chance and concede possession. I think we lost control looking for killer passes on Saturday. Not the first time it's happened. I think we're a better team when we keep the ball, but we're moving rapidly away from that and I think it doesn't suit us. May be wrong on this but it's how I see it: I like it when we've got the ball.

I think Sharp's movement is generally very good: he pops up all over the place. And I don't think his effort or commitment to the cause can reasonably be questioned.

Done: for me he's an enigma - and I've posted on this a few times. I'd add to this the chasing down of the keeper - loudly approved of in some quarters - which he's not had to do this so much recently just wasted his energy and meant he was offside (and knackered) if we did gain possession. Futile.

I tend to go with Bergen's analysis: the players are good and bad at different things. We've not yet got the right combination to, er, accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I'm glad several posters have taken the debate further, including what individual players offer and do not offer. I think most of us agree about the need for more movement, and maybe also that the selected midfielders at Crewe are incapable of giving us that movement, even if they're trying their hardest?

groveblade , fully understand that it's different being there and watching a poor performance compared to wathing the video the next day. When I sit down and watch a game we've lost I've put the frustration and disappointment behind me and just want to see what went wrong and what we should be doing differently. I ffw when gk take their time at goalk kicks.

Regarding players' effort, even in the clips it shows Coutts 'wanting' it. When he hasn't got the ball he comes short and with his hand gesture shows that he wants the ball. He did this constantly, all game, and probably thinks this is effective and his role in the team, his way of showing effort. When this is also Hammond and Baxter's natural game, we don't get enough forward movement, no tempo, no penetration. The pace we had in the forward position was wasted, as we ended up passing it around in midfield. Crewe got men behind the ball all the time and were very comfortable.

I think Harris got frustrated with our midfielders' lack of movement in the second half. First he ignored Coutts coming short, and bypassed him, finding Flynn. Then he did the same, but went on a long diagonal run immediately after, as if to show the pedestrian midfielders how to do it - pass and make a forward run, at least once in a while! Then Harris tried another forward pass, but hit the referee which set Crewe up for a dangerous break. Then he stopped taking these initiatives as well.

 

[sheffielder]

Reed and Scougall in the midfield.

Stuff of nightmares.

Hang on, you have identified about what is wrong with us, however Reed in particular passes with tempo and tracks runners when he doesn't have the ball.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Hang on, you have identified about what is wrong with us, however Reed in particular passes with tempo and tracks runners when he doesn't have the ball.

Indeed he does - some on here do not see a footballer or like Reed and think they are wrong.

We haven't seen much of Reed but he had a decent game away v Burton - Burton (as most teams are) are very well organised, but Reed was certainly trying to move the ball on and doesn't (IMHO) hide when played in CM.
Yes he might be small but at least he is very willing to accept the ball, will take a touch and wants to move it forward. Lack of movement at times doesn't help any of the CM midfield players.

I am asking the question now - is it the coaches who are wanting this slow passing style - jeez, it's Clough MK 2 at present.

UTB

 

[LSF]

Indeed he does - some on here do not see a footballer or like Reed and think they are wrong.

We haven't seen much of Reed but he had a decent game away v Burton - Burton (as most teams are) are very well organised, but Reed was certainly trying to move the ball on and doesn't (IMHO) hide when played in CM.
Yes he might be small but at least he is very willing to accept the ball, will take a touch and wants to move it forward. Lack of movement at times doesn't help any of the CM midfield players.

I am asking the question now - is it the coaches who are wanting this slow passing style - jeez, it's Clough MK 2 at present.

UTB

I would say in answer to your last question posed - yes!
I would imagine most players prefer playing a high tempo, move the ball forward and quickly, but the current fashion is not that way.
I don't think players at this level are particularly adept at Ball retention sideways and back until something happens in front.
To me, its foreign the their nature playing this way, and currently, it shows..

 

[Barney]

Hang on, you have identified about what is wrong with us, however Reed in particular passes with tempo and tracks runners when he doesn't have the ball.

You must be watching different games to me then. Reed does nothing other than pass the ball sideways/backwards in a nervous, hurried fashion the instant he receives it. Don't know how he got a call up from the U21's, yet another waste of a wage.

 

[Bergen Blade]

You must be watching different games to me then. Reed does nothing other than pass the ball sideways/backwards in a nervous, hurried fashion the instant he receives it. Don't know how he got a call up from the U21's, yet another waste of a wage.

A couple of decent passes for you:

 

[Barney]

A couple of decent passes for you:

2 out of how many misplaced, nervous passes?

As long as he makes one more decent pass in March 2016, he should be good for another 2 years I reckon.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Good OP, sorry I haven't time to read the thread and sorry if the following has already been said.

I'm fully in favour of Coutts and Hammond in deep midfield but the whole key to that is movement from the full backs as soon as they are in possession. Both full backs should immediately supplement midfield to compensate for the deep possession that Hammond and Coutts will provide. If the opposition want to press that high upfield then bring it on and shift it quickly to either full back or Baxter or Adams who should be creating space for themselves all the time, along with Done and Sharp.

I played in good teams and bad teams. Playing in a good team you have 2/3 options every time you have the ball. In a bad team none. With 2/3 options, every player can move the ball quicker. With more men upfield we can always pick up more scraps.

Pushing up the full backs exposes the remaining back 2 but Hammond and Coutts are deep enough to fill in and cover.

I feel sure Adkins chose Flynn and Harris for the above reasons and quite right too IMO.

As for defensively, Baxter, Adams, Sharp and Done have to do their bit but are largely out of the equation when the opposition break sporadically. However 4 back plus the keeper should be plenty to cover breakaways. Give the foul away if need be and don't hesitate.

Failing to break down teams who play 10 behind the ball is a problem for the top Prem teams not just us. I can only suggest we mix up play more and attack through the middle not just down the flanks, get to the by-line rather than cross hopefully from deep, bring on Sammon very early and take the high route into the area more and always feeding off the "leaps".

 

[super_pig]

Agree again - can't understand Coutts and Hammond and Baxter in same midfield!!! But even then, with a more determined winner's attitude, we should still be beating Crewe....
Anyway, onto the next battle and UTB!!

can't understand Coutts, Hammond and Baxter period. you can chuck in McEvely, Flynn and Howard whilst you are there

 

[Bergen Blade]

2 out of how many misplaced, nervous passes?

As long as he makes one more decent pass in March 2016, he should be good for another 2 years I reckon.

Don't agree with you. His touch, accuracy and composure is good for someone his age and his vision is getting better. His limitations are first and foremost physical and he needs to be encouraged to pass it forward even more. He had a poor second half of last season, but has had several decent games this season, showing an improved range of passing and taking more responsibility.

 

[Bergen Blade]

can't understand Coutts, Hammond and Baxter period. you can chuck in McEvely, Flynn and Howard whilst you are there

Are we still blaming McEveley for every defeat whether he's playing or not?

 

[sheffielder]

You must be watching different games to me then. Reed does nothing other than pass the ball sideways/backwards in a nervous, hurried fashion the instant he receives it. Don't know how he got a call up from the U21's, yet another waste of a wage.

Not sure you watch games to be honest. He looks anything but nervous to me (or many on here by the looks of it)