Loyalty Points

[axel smeets]

It comes up where demand exceeds allocation, so quite naturally isn’t going to. To suggest it only comes up in the derby completely ignores the situation for away games when we got promoted 2 years ago. It would be nice if we actually looked at the options available to improve it rather than simply maintain it as it is ignoring criticisms it receives.

It didn’t come up very often 3-4 years ago, did it? What is wrong with the points system as it currently stands?

 

[spongebobblade]

Back in the day people who went to Plymouth Away for arguments sake retained their stubs and were given first choice for the big games - how about more points for longer distance midweek away games?

^^^^^ This
For example, tickets were readily available for Ipswich (week before Xmas, long distance) as well as Reading and Swansea (long distance & on sky). These are perfect opportunities to reward the more ‘diehard’ supporter and a chance for the younger ones to make inroads on their total with a reward of say 300 points? Would anyone begrudge this? Instead we would rather give roughly the same amount of points if we watch Barnet at home in the cup. At least give people a chance to catch up!!

 

[essexblade73]

You can between parent and child. They let me also do brother to brother at same time. If that’s your situation then I suggest taking it up with them again.

Ta. I called and explained to them it was for my lad who is on my friends and family list and was told no!

 

[AWetFlannel]

Never fails to make me chuckle how these loyalty points threads appear when we play Parson Cross Rovers but never do for Ipswich or Reading on a Tuesday night.

That's because I got a ticket for Reading and Ipswich away, but then others who didn't go to them games have been able to get tickets for Pigs and Leeds ahead of me.

Got no beef for the system, it works very well. Is annoying though to watch when I just miss out that so many people have got tickets with less loyalty points than me by 'borrowing'.

 

[axel smeets]

That's because I got a ticket for Reading and Ipswich away, but then others who didn't go to them games have been able to get tickets for Pigs and Leeds ahead of me.

Got no beef for the system, it works very well. Is annoying though to watch when I just miss out that so many people have got tickets with less loyalty points than me by 'borrowing'.

Yes, I take your point, but you can’t ever stop that happening, can you? I have 54k points, what is to stop me from buying a ticket and giving it to someone with 15k points?

 

[Fanny magnet]

It's not fair I have hardly any points and don't even want a ticket but surely the system should be changed so that I can have tickets delivered to my door just in case I want them ?

Typical United scaring proper fans like me away

 

[axel smeets]

That's because I got a ticket for Reading and Ipswich away, but then others who didn't go to them games have been able to get tickets for Pigs and Leeds ahead of me.

Got no beef for the system, it works very well. Is annoying though to watch when I just miss out that so many people have got tickets with less loyalty points than me by 'borrowing'.

Of course you got a ticket for Reading and Ipswich away, because you could be arsed to spend the money and the time to go. All some posters seem to want is not to go to these games but rock up at Leppings Lane. Then its toys out of the fucking pram time.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

What is wrong with the points system as it currently stands?

I’m not sure if you’ve just dipped in at page 4 here and ignored past threads on this, but essentially:

• It benefits those that were around on the system from the start in 2006 – if you weren’t alive then, or following United then, or followed United but didn’t get a customer number till the club insisted on it in recent years, tough.
• With no process of removing points (eg only taking points from the last 5 years) it makes it very difficult for newer supporters to reach the totals required for the upper bands to give them a chance of getting tickets when tickets are limited.
• It theoretically allows those with historically good totals pre-L1 that may have avoided watching us regularly in L1 to still have a good chance of getting tickets, slightly making a mockery of the term ‘loyalty’
• It makes it genuinely unattainable for loyal supporters that may have only been watching us for 5 years or so but attended regularly home and away to get to games like the derby. That means people that have never had the experience continue to not have, while those that have been before get to go again.
• All of the above will be exacerbated in future years if left unchanged.

There’s already a great suggestion from Rusty view on having at least some portion of tickets in these situations available via a ballot, so at least those with no usual hope of going might have the opportunity. I’m sure there are other suggestions of improving it out there too if it’s actually given some thought.

 

[jt64]

I still have no real idea why they start releasing tickets to certain tiers of points at certain times/days, surely that just creates spots at around 9am where the web servers are under high load and or "your number in the queue is (pause) 42", surely it's much better to have a 3-4 day period where anyone can apply for tickets, then once it's closed if supply is more than demand, if we have 3,000 tickets the 3,000 people with most points get them. This also has the side effect of "but I was waiting for my mate to have enough points then I missed one", if they would have got one then their application is there and you can be seated together as you wanted, and if not, you still get one (or decline it if you want your group to all go or nobody does).

Don't know what gleadless is on about re: only 2-3 didn't go to general sale, Pigs/Rotherham/Leeds/Forest all didn't, and I'm pretty certain at least West Brom/Derby/Norwich all didn't either

 

[AWetFlannel]

Yes, I take your point, but you can’t ever stop that happening, can you? I have 54k points, what is to stop me from buying a ticket and giving it to someone with 15k points?

True, which is why I didn't say something should be done to prevent it.

Still fancy a moan.

 

[axel smeets]

I’m not sure if you’ve just dipped in at page 4 here and ignored past threads on this, but essentially:

• It benefits those that were around on the system from the start in 2006 – if you weren’t alive then, or following United then, or followed United but didn’t get a customer number till the club insisted on it in recent years, tough.
• With no process of removing points (eg only taking points from the last 5 years) it makes it very difficult for newer supporters to reach the totals required for the upper bands to give them a chance of getting tickets when tickets are limited.
• It theoretically allows those with historically good totals pre-L1 that may have avoided watching us regularly in L1 to still have a good chance of getting tickets, slightly making a mockery of the term ‘loyalty’
• It makes it genuinely unattainable for loyal supporters that may have only been watching us for 5 years or so but attended regularly home and away to get to games like the derby. That means people that have never had the experience continue to not have, while those that have been before get to go again.
• All of the above will be exacerbated in future years if left unchanged.

There’s already a great suggestion from Rusty view on having at least some portion of tickets in these situations available via a ballot, so at least those with no usual hope of going might have the opportunity. I’m sure there are other suggestions of improving it out there too if it’s actually given some thought.

The argument now seems to be then, that if say you are in your mid 30s like me, you're going to have more loyalty points than someone who was born 15 years later than me.

Therefore, people in their 30s, 40s and 50s should be penalised to help people in their late teens and early 20s get to Hillsborough or whichever game has demand exceeding supply?

I’m afraid there is nothing the club can do about the year in which someone was born.

Also, will these current 18-25 year olds feel the same in 15 years time when people who are currently 5 are asking them to strip their own loyalty points so that they can attend Rotherham away?

Historically good totals pre league one would be the 06-11 era of 5 years, which is roughly the same span as the League One era of 11-17. If someone has been really loyal from 11-17, they will have outstripped or overtaken someone who had a ST in the 06-11 era. Especially considering the JPT games which we never had in 06-11.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

Plenty of fans stuck by the team home and away in the L1 years . I don't see why those years should be knocked off by an arbitrary five year plan. Makes a mockery of "loyalty" doesn't it.

Very well said.

There are people in the system since it started. Who didn't disappear in L1.

Very well said again.

My son and his mates are 18 and have 40k plus points.

Yep, mine too. They’ll be at the game tomorrow, and rightly so, having flogged around Bury, Crewe, Oldham, Port Vale, Burton and the rest, during the 6 years—ok, 5 years, given that the last one was ace—of L1 away shite. (Plus all the home shite).

 

[spongebobblade]

The argument now seems to be then, that if say you are in your mid 30s like me, you're going to have more loyalty points than someone who was born 15 years later than me.

Therefore, people in their 30s, 40s and 50s should be penalised to help people in their late teens and early 20s get to Hillsborough or whichever game has demand exceeding supply?

I’m afraid there is nothing the club can do about the year in which someone was born.

Also, will these current 18-25 year olds feel the same in 15 years time when people who are currently 5 are asking them to strip their own loyalty points so that they can attend Rotherham away?

Historically good totals pre league one would be the 06-11 era of 5 years, which is roughly the same span as the League One era of 11-17. If someone has been really loyal from 11-17, they will have outstripped or overtaken someone who had a ST in the 06-11 era. Especially considering the JPT games which we never had in 06-11.

So what happens to someone who is, let’s say 10years old now and missed out on the first 3 years of points? How will they ever catch up? The problem will only get worse! Now is a perfect time to introduce a , let’s say 10 year rolling system. If you’ve been a regular in the dark days of league 1,you’ve nothing to worry about if you continue your support. If you only jumped on the premiership bandwagon and then disappeared then there’s leaves an opportunity for the recent loyal and YOUNGER supporter to make inroads as well as my suggestion to reward trips like Ipswich, Reading and Swansea this year with greater and more significant numbers of points

 

[LoughboroBlade]

The argument now seems to be then, that if say you are in your mid 30s like me, you're going to have more loyalty points than someone who was born 15 years later than me.

Therefore, people in their 30s, 40s and 50s should be penalised to help people in their late teens and early 20s get to Hillsborough or whichever game has demand exceeding supply?

As someone in my mid-30s that’s been to the Rust Bucket twice, yes I’d be very happy for newer (not necessarily younger) fans that probably get to games more regularly than me now to have the opportunity to experience that for the first time.

 

[spongebobblade]

Very well said.



Very well said again.



Yep, mine too. They’ll be at the game tomorrow, and rightly so, having flogged around Bury, Crewe, Oldham, Port Vale, Burton and the rest, during the 6 years—ok, 5 years, given that the last one was ace—of L1 away shite. (Plus all the home shite).

Fully agree with the sentiment of league 1 sufferers. My daughter went everywhere in league one and points were easy to come by but because she was a little too young before that is now paying the price for our success despite doing all the usual trips she can now (Reading, Swansea, Ipswich etc....)
She will do one of these trips (150pts) then be back to square one when the part time away follower will jump on tickets for Rotherham, Leeds and Pigs. It needs tweaking to help the really young fan without hurting the truly loyal ones possibly like my post above?

 

[axel smeets]

So what happens to someone who is, let’s say 10years old now and missed out on the first 3 years of points? How will they ever catch up? The problem will only get worse! Now is a perfect time to introduce a , let’s say 10 year rolling system. If you’ve been a regular in the dark days of league 1,you’ve nothing to worry about if you continue your support. If you only jumped on the premiership bandwagon and then disappeared then there’s leaves an opportunity for the recent loyal and YOUNGER supporter to make inroads as well as my suggestion to reward trips like Ipswich, Reading and Swansea this year with greater and more significant numbers of points

Yes, but it is only an issue when we play the likes of PCR, Rotherham, Leeds etc away. Not when we play at Griffin Park or Loftus Rd on a Tuesday night.

The idea of a 10 year rolling points system is an interesting one, and might well work. But the loyalty points scheme has been tested in 3 divisions, so I don't see how people can say that it is not working. We have attracted and held onto a significant amount of young people in the city in the last 10 years or so. I don't think they are going to walk away from the club because they can't get a ticket to go to Castle Greyskull on Monday night and 60 year old Fred who has watched the Blades since he was 10 and has had a season ticket since 1973, can.

Also, it is impossible for a 10 year old now, who has missed out on 3 years of points to catch up, because he wasn't born when they were introduced. I got my first ST in 1999, when I was 16. If the points system had been in place since 1990, when we were promoted to the top division, could I have argued that it was unfair to me? How far do we go back, worrying about keeping every fucker happy, when the reality is, there is nowt that you can do about it?

 

[axel smeets]

As someone in my mid-30s that’s been to the Rust Bucket twice, yes I’d be very happy for newer (not necessarily younger) fans that probably get to games more regularly than me now to have the opportunity to experience that for the first time.

If you had enough points, then why not buy a ticket and sell it through the use of an innovative procedure such as....a ballot?
Then someone would have benefitted.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

But the loyalty points scheme has been tested in 3 divisions, so I don't see how people can say that it is not working.

For games that go to general sale, the scheme is basically an irrelevance, which was the case for most of our L1 games. For those games, frankly having no phased release at all according to tickets would have had little difference on its effectiveness. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that games where we can’t sell our allocation are an issue. The test of whether it works should always be for the games where demand exceeds the tickets available – which is when the issues kick in.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

If you had enough points, then why not buy a ticket and sell it through the use of an innovative procedure such as....a ballot?
Then someone would have benefitted.

I’d really the process was managed by the club rather than me operating a ballot for my individual ticket...

It’s a moot point anyway, as my 23,000 currently entitle me to nothing

 

[axel smeets]

For games that go to general sale, the scheme is basically an irrelevance, which was the case for most of our L1 games. For those games, frankly having no phased release at all according to tickets would have had little difference on its effectiveness. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that games where we can’t sell our allocation are an issue. The test of whether it works should always be for the games where demand exceeds the tickets available – which is when the issues kick in.

Now, you see, this is where we might differ. I can't see why, if 3950 are willing to buy tickets to go to Swine Cottage on Monday night, the same aren't prepared to buy tickets to go to Portman Rd, Ashton Gate, Loftus Rd and Griffin Park, and demand should always exceed supply. But the reality is, people can't be arsed a lot of the time. You can't have your bread buttered on both sides as the saying goes.

 

[spongebobblade]

Yes, but it is only an issue when we play the likes of PCR, Rotherham, Leeds etc away. Not when we play at Griffin Park or Loftus Rd on a Tuesday night.

The idea of a 10 year rolling points system is an interesting one, and might well work. But the loyalty points scheme has been tested in 3 divisions, so I don't see how people can say that it is not working. We have attracted and held onto a significant amount of young people in the city in the last 10 years or so. I don't think they are going to walk away from the club because they can't get a ticket to go to Castle Greyskull on Monday night and 60 year old Fred who has watched the Blades since he was 10 and has had a season ticket since 1973, can.

Also, it is impossible for a 10 year old now, who has missed out on 3 years of points to catch up, because he wasn't born when they were introduced. I got my first ST in 1999, when I was 16. If the points system had been in place since 1990, when we were promoted to the top division, could I have argued that it was unfair to me? How far do we go back, worrying about keeping every fucker happy, when the reality is, there is nowt that you can do about it?

Your points have probably just agreed with me that a 10 year rolling system would work. As long as Fred keeps going, he’s nothing to worry about has he? Where as Fred’s brother who was loyal in the good old days but couldn’t be arsed to go for 5 years in league 1 because we were shit now regrets it!!
NOW is the perfect time to introduce it

 

[axel smeets]

Your points have probably just agreed with me that a 10 year rolling system would work. As long as Fred keeps going, he’s nothing to worry about has he? Where as Fred’s brother who was loyal in the good old days but couldn’t be arsed to go for 5 years in league 1 because we were shit now regrets it!!
NOW is the perfect time to introduce it

Fred will have nowt to worry about. His brother Tommy, on the other hand, can get fucked. But, that's not the point. It is very rare that demand exceeds supply, and when it does, that is when the points scheme does its job. It has only really happened this season at Rotherham, SUFC, and Leeds and Forest. They are 4 clubs that are all within a 1hr drive/train journey from Sheffield. The fact of the matter is, that people want to go to these places, but aren't always prepared to go to Ipswich, Reading and Bristol City to make sure that they can.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Your points have probably just agreed with me that a 10 year rolling system would work. As long as Fred keeps going, he’s nothing to worry about has he? Where as Fred’s brother who was loyal in the good old days but couldn’t be arsed to go for 5 years in league 1 because we were shit now regrets it!!
NOW is the perfect time to introduce it

For the sake of argument, what genuinely would be the effect on the current 40k plus lot if the total was a rolling 5 years rather than 10? On a personal point of view this would significantly worsen my overall total, but for the sake of a slightly fairer system I’d be willing to go with it. Those that seem to be in the upper total will at any rate appear to have been going regularly in the last 5 years to continue in the top tier, so other than affecting the historical points horders like myself who is really disadvantaged?

 

[Topplayersleave]

It's also a recipe to simply have more people on maximum points. Making the problem worse.

This is the downside, but clubs like Man Utd manage it, tens of thousands of fans after 3000 away tickets is typical for them every week.
If there isn't a 5 year rolling loyalty points system maybe there should be a maximum that can be attained

Every season the biggest games will mean even higher points are required, this will continue forever and a day.
The same fans will have the most loyalty points and will continue to stretch their lead as they continually gets first choice.
I understand that the loyalist fans deserve that, but it brings its problems as well

The younger fan starting out cannot ever catch up because he cannot get to enough games, and the gap just increases.

If we get to the point where 20000 people have 60000 points all away games would be sold on the internet only, on a first come first served from that group of people basis

It would make shifting away tickets easier and quicker

 

[cooperblade]

My son and his mates are 18 and have 40k plus points.

My son is 14 and is 10k points behind them. Let's assume both our lads continue to get season tickets. If my lad went to 10 away games more a season than your lad (at an average of 100 points per game), it would take him 10 years to catch up.

It's just really hard (impossible) for the young ones to catch up with anyone who goes regularly.

Anyway, not a unique problem to United by any means, I know Wolves fans are constantly debating their system.

P.S. A spare for Leeds would make a young lad very happy...

 

[spongebobblade]

Fred will have nowt to worry about. His brother Tommy, on the other hand, can get fucked. But, that's not the point. It is very rare that demand exceeds supply, and when it does, that is when the points scheme does its job. It has only really happened this season at Rotherham, SUFC, and Leeds and Forest. They are 4 clubs that are all within a 1hr drive/train journey from Sheffield. The fact of the matter is, that people want to go to these places, but aren't always prepared to go to Ipswich, Reading and Bristol City to make sure that they can.

My daughter has been to ALL the distant away games this season yet cannot get to the local ones using her points. For every Swansea there’s others who go to Rotherham, Leeds and the pigs (where they can’t get tickets) and the situation never changes. How about larger rewards for the bigger distances as I’ve suggested? 300pts for Swansea, Reading, Bristol and Ipswich for example? If they put the miles in then reward them and give them the chance. The diehard still won’t suffer

 

[spongebobblade]

For the sake of argument, what genuinely would be the effect on the current 40k plus lot if the total was a rolling 5 years rather than 10? On a personal point of view this would significantly worsen my overall total, but for the sake of a slightly fairer system I’d be willing to go with it. Those that seem to be in the upper total will at any rate appear to have been going regularly in the last 5 years to continue in the top tier, so other than affecting the historical points horders like myself who is really disadvantaged?

I’m not sure to be honest but while the league 1 campaigns can be taken into consideration surely any tweaking should be done now?

 

[cooperblade]

Now, you see, this is where we might differ. I can't see why, if 3950 are willing to buy tickets to go to Swine Cottage on Monday night, the same aren't prepared to buy tickets to go to Portman Rd, Ashton Gate, Loftus Rd and Griffin Park, and demand should always exceed supply. But the reality is, people can't be arsed a lot of the time. You can't have your bread buttered on both sides as the saying goes.

But because of the length of the scheme, a fan who has had a season ticket since 2006 and been to 1 away game every season will have more points than a 10 year old who has had a season ticket for 4 years and done 20 aways in each of those 4 seasons.

Similarly, someone who had a season ticket for 6 years but hasn't been for 5 years would have more points than someone who only been going for the last 5 seasons (and has seen 115 more home games than fan A in the same period).

A rolling scheme would still benefit those who go to Ipswich, Reading etc. It just removes the (unintentional) weighting which is given to age.

 

[axel smeets]

My daughter has been to ALL the distant away games this season yet cannot get to the local ones using her points. For every Swansea there’s others who go to Rotherham, Leeds and the pigs (where they can’t get tickets) and the situation never changes. How about larger rewards for the bigger distances as I’ve suggested? 300pts for Swansea, Reading, Bristol and Ipswich for example? If they put the miles in then reward them and give them the chance. The diehard still won’t suffer

I don't think it is a bad idea at all. If you worked it out on mileage from the lane and increased points as you worked outwards, that would work I think. Perhaps an increase for night games as well? I sympathise with your daughter to a degree. As I have said earlier though, what is to stop someone like me with 54k, buying a ticket for Hillsborough and giving it to my mate who has 25k points? Any system devised would always be open to loopholes like that, and I don't see how you can please everyone.

 

[axel smeets]

But because of the length of the scheme, a fan who has had a season ticket since 2006 and been to 1 away game every season will have more points than a 10 year old who has had a season ticket for 4 years and done 20 aways in each of those 4 seasons.

Similarly, someone who had a season ticket for 6 years but hasn't been for 5 years would have more points than someone who only been going for the last 5 seasons (and has seen 115 more home games than fan A in the same period).

A rolling scheme would still benefit those who go to Ipswich, Reading etc. It just removes the (unintentional) weighting which is given to age.

I simply don't see WHY we should try and put in balances to stop an age bias. I know many will disagree with me, but the scheme was launched 13 years ago this summer, and I really don't see how you can go back so far to appease the coming generation. A person who has had a ST for all of the 13 years, not attended an away game, would have accumulated 35100 points up to summer 2018 (based on 2700 each year since 2006).

You could argue that it is not fair that they have more than a 20 year old who has been an away regular since they were 12, but wouldn't they argue that they have say through 6 years of L1 football? I'm not necessarily saying I agree with that viewpoint, but there are some who would make it, aren't there?

I just think that no matter what you do, you can't please everybody.