Legal threat over FFP rules

[Newbury Blade]

Interesting articles by David Conn in the Guardian today.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/26/financial-fair-play-clubs-threat-football-league
http://www.theguardian.com/football...lay-championship-clubs-threat-football-league

The League One club joining the fight against the rules is believed to be Wolves, although we've got more money than them, haven't we? So we would presumably stand to benefit if the rules were eased (because we could afford a big wage bill).

Not that I'm against fair play and the idea of introducing some sense into the bonkers world of football finance.

 

[Flakey]

Its all a question of control. The FA want to keep us in our place, and make the Premiership an exclusive club.

I'm sure if the Premiership could lose the 9 or 10 unfashionable teams, they would happily stop relegation and promotion from the Championship, and invite the top European teams to join, making it one big Champions league division

 

[jezzablade]

Its all a question of control. The FA want to keep us in our place, and make the Premiership an exclusive club.

I'm sure if the Premiership could lose the 9 or 10 unfashionable teams, they would happily stop relegation and promotion from the Championship, and invite the top European teams to join, making it one big Champions league division

I don't think the FA have anything to do with it. I think its the Premier league that want to make the Premier League exclusive, hence they have not gone along with the football league's plan. The Premier League want clubs to spend as much as they can including overspending as they don't have to worry what happens to the club after relegation, but it continues to showcase the Premier League whilst the club is still there with expensive players. I like the football league being sensible and trying to get clubs to act sensibly as they realise clubs come from the communities, and that the communities should continue to have clubs there. The Premier league couldn't give two shits about the communities they just want the cash.

 

[Sharrowblade]

If it is Leicester City who have instructed solicitors to look at legal implications, I would be embarrassed.

Short memories, given the fact the inherent role they played, in the rules that have been brought in over the last 10 years, in attempt to stop overspending.

The bottom line is they are cheating.

One thing I am surprised at, is that championship clubs agreed to share the fines imposed. That will go down well at S6, when Mandy gets the bill for Tony Fernandes and Harry's spending spree at QPR.

 

[itsinyerblood]

I think jezzablade may have a point regarding the Premiership's intentions. Try and compare it to the Catholic church who plan not just in months or years, but often in decades. Now I doubt whether the Prem actually think in terms of how life will be in 10 or 20 year's time, but nothing about their desires would surprise me. The money available at the top table has generated a set of unhealthy appetites, to the point where it's been mooted that a possible breakaway league amongst the top 4 or 5 English teams, the same coming from Italy, Germany, Spain, Holland, and whoever else might be part of this proposal.

I think far too much is made of our game being the best in the world. Without a constant insight into just how good the quality of football is elsewhere, it's difficult to determine the quality available in the Prem. There's part of me that wants SUFC to be part of this club, but it doesn't mean that I approve of their machinations that operate in a way that doesn't give a toss for the lifeblood of the game, the supporter. Recent revelations from Arsenal about the ticket price for a Champions League game against Bayern (correct me if I'm wrong) was between £62-132! I loved the comment of an Arsenal season ticket holder (£1995 if you're interested) who cryptically said, "It's like a girlfriend who doesn't love you back".

Strewth, that is, even in this age of whipping the poor supporter, a phenomenally excessive amount to charge for a game. If that really is a sign of the future then football's bubble will one day burst, and who knows how many so called 'top' clubs would go to the wall through their own financial stupidity. The Prem should think carefully about their own financial mismanagement, but as we've seen, the dubious characters who now own many of the Prem's top club's has been allowed to happen, due to those who sit glibly at the FA who seem more concerned with their own jobs rather than the game's fan base.

Sorry if I've rambled, but the thought of half full stadiums kind of defeats the purpose of what a club is meant to be. New owners should be mindful of the community element of any club, and for SUFC, the core of it's support are hardened fans who hate being fleeced. Take note Jim Phipps, more creative pricing policies are what will ensure healthier attendances.

 

[UnitedBlade]

Interesting articles by David Conn in the Guardian today.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/26/financial-fair-play-clubs-threat-football-league
http://www.theguardian.com/football...lay-championship-clubs-threat-football-league

The League One club joining the fight against the rules is believed to be Wolves, although we've got more money than them, haven't we? So we would presumably stand to benefit if the rules were eased (because we could afford a big wage bill).

Not that I'm against fair play and the idea of introducing some sense into the bonkers world of football finance.

Wolves are considerably richer than we are at the moment. This season they have parachute payments of £16M, which alone is likely to be double our turnover. They will be agitated in that they will have done £32M of their £48M parachute money just to get back to the Championship. They will then realise they possibly have to lose more than £8M a year to get in any sort of position to compete to get back into the PL.

The whole thing would be a complete farce if the FL lost any case. It just then becomes open season for those people with deep pockets to spend until they are promoted.

Footballers (particularly in the Championship) get paid far too much money. It would just be more money to greedy players and agents.

I vote "fuck off you greedy bastards", let's get some order back into finances and make it affordable for the average fan to continue to watch.

 

[jezzablade]

Wolves are considerably richer than we are at the moment. This season they have parachute payments of £16M, which alone is likely to be double our turnover. They will be agitated in that they will have done £32M of their £48M parachute money just to get back to the Championship. They will then realise they possibly have to lose more than £8M a year to get in any sort of position to compete to get back into the PL.

The whole thing would be a complete farce if the FL lost any case. It just then becomes open season for those people with deep pockets to spend until they are promoted.

Footballers (particularly in the Championship) get paid far too much money. It would just be more money to greedy players and agents.

I vote "fuck off you greedy bastards", let's get some order back into finances and make it affordable for the average fan to continue to watch.

And they say it in a Brummy accent.

The Premier league won't get their finances back in order they are more than happy with clubs spending future money in the Prem showcasing the Prem. Three clubs are relegated every year and three clubs replace them, so why do they care if those three that went down go to the wall or spend 13 years trying to rebuild. There are another three clubs willing to spend more than they earn to replace them and so on. They leach every bit of the game to make more and more money. EPPP rules, foreign players reducing the chances of a decent England team, foreign deals so that we can't shorten the season to give English players a breather before tournaments. There is no end to their avarice. I detest them and everything they stand for. And they have the gaul to complain about council pitches being in a state when councils are having to cut back but the Prem can afford to pay Rooney £300K per week even £100K per week of that could have helped Greater Manchester parks have better pitches for the kids of the area. I hate what they have done to this country. And lets face it the Premier League is really Sky which is therefore Murdock. We have stood by and watched this man remove our game from us and give it to the upper middle / high class money people at the xpense of the whole community system that made kids like Sir Tom Finney rest his soul come through the system and play at the highest level. Rant over.

 

[SwissBlade]

More financial rules please! Top down From pl wankers

 

[itsinyerblood]

And they say it in a Brummy accent.

Jezza, excuse the pedant in me, but it's more 'black country' than brummie. A small difference but ask a Wolve's fan and they get very protective of their signature use of language.

 

[jezzablade]

Jezza, excuse the pedant in me, but it's more 'black country' than brummie. A small difference but ask a Wolve's fan and they get very protective of their signature use of language.

Oh.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Oh.

Love your rant by the way, with you all the way there mate.

All good common-sense fella, as you say, avarice is now the dominant drive, and when I hear someone like Rooney say he's pleased his contract is agreed, I bet he is. As long as his like, guided by agents who make the scum of the earth seem like charitable institutions, can look the world in the eye and feel no remorse for being so uninhibitedly greedy, then the further the game pushes itself away from it's supporters.

 

[Bladesway]

I think the only surprise here is that anyone is surprised. The big want to be bigger, the wannabe rich wannabe richer and don't give a fuck about the rest. Where do we fit into this however?

For me, the FFP rules are a force for good. They mean some clubs (of which we may be one) have to cut their cloth. Where it falls on its face is that the Premiership should be the same. It can't work properly unless it is done throughout all of football. But if anyone thinks that corrupt shithole of soullessness that is the EPL will play ball they are kidding themselves.

It is why I don't care if we don't ever grace that glory hole league again. We aren't wanted there unless we come armed with hundreds of millions of pounds and it has nothing to do with the game of football any longer. If we can stop the Championship rotting in the same way then something may yet be saved but I am not sure it hasn't gone that way already.

As usual some twunt of a lawyer will get rich and make his/her point via a technicality and we will all be a little poorer as clubs like Leicester make themselves a nice bed in the Premiership. Only a matter of time before the wankers in the Premiership lock themselves in and you will have to go via special application and invitation. Fit and proper persons is a joke so long as you have the cash you can be a war criminal and run a football club.

 

[Newbury Blade]

OK. I think a lot of us might agree with that. So what if, say, Arsenal, Chelsea, the Manchester clubs and Liverpool did f... off to play in a European league? Leaving the top division more competitive and more like it used to be. We might even aspire to win it again one day as we did in 1898. Would people prefer that to the current situation where the rich are getting richer and only a handful of clubs can ever win?
We could still let Man U etc enter the FA Cup if they asked nicely.

 

[Bladesway]

OK. I think a lot of us might agree with that. So what if, say, Arsenal, Chelsea, the Manchester clubs and Liverpool did f... off to play in a European league? Leaving the top division more competitive and more like it used to be. We might even aspire to win it again one day as we did in 1898. Would people prefer that to the current situation where the rich are getting richer and only a handful of clubs can ever win?
We could still let Man U etc enter the FA Cup if they asked nicely.

No, they leave to form the super league of the "best teams who didn't win their league but still have bags of cash" let them fuck off and rot in hell forever. If Real want to play Man U 14 times a year then great, but like I don't watch the Champions (and those who finish behind them) league, I won't be watching. If you could clear out that layer of super rich shit from the Premiership and their plastic fans from all parts of the world it might just leave the breathing room for the rest of football.

You may get the drift I am quite passionate about this. You would be right.

 

[Jonboy60]

Interesting articles by David Conn in the Guardian today.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/26/financial-fair-play-clubs-threat-football-league
http://www.theguardian.com/football...lay-championship-clubs-threat-football-league

The League One club joining the fight against the rules is believed to be Wolves, although we've got more money than them, haven't we? So we would presumably stand to benefit if the rules were eased (because we could afford a big wage bill).

Not that I'm against fair play and the idea of introducing some sense into the bonkers world of football finance.

Doesn't stop shithouse scudamore raking a million bonus of the back of tv deals. No ffp rules for that obnoxious twat.

 

[Newbury Blade]

No, they leave to form the super league of the "best teams who didn't win their league but still have bags of cash" let them fuck off and rot in hell forever. If Real want to play Man U 14 times a year then great, but like I don't watch the Champions (and those who finish behind them) league, I won't be watching. If you could clear out that layer of super rich shit from the Premiership and their plastic fans from all parts of the world it might just leave the breathing room for the rest of football.

You may get the drift I am quite passionate about this. You would be right.

I'll take that as a "yes".

 

[stringjunior]

I agree with most of this premier league bashing, but describing fans of PL clubs as plastic is a big generalisation. Yes, some will be glory hunters, but many will be like you and I, having supported the club through thin and thin. Living the wrong side of the hill I'm surrounded by City fans who cant quite believe where they are now, after spending years on the Kippax watching shite every week.

 

[jezzablade]

No, they leave to form the super league of the "best teams who didn't win their league but still have bags of cash" let them fuck off and rot in hell forever. If Real want to play Man U 14 times a year then great, but like I don't watch the Champions (and those who finish behind them) league, I won't be watching. If you could clear out that layer of super rich shit from the Premiership and their plastic fans from all parts of the world it might just leave the breathing room for the rest of football.

You may get the drift I am quite passionate about this. You would be right.

I would like it to happen but there are two main problems if it does. Firstly it will resemble the NFL so franchised, the problem being that will create a minor league. So we have the patronising system of being a breading ground for the super clubs, we would be a nurture centre for the "proper clubs". I couldn't bear that but with all the TV going to the super league we would have no choice. Secondly Because it would be franchised there is no way of getting from the bottom to the top through football, it would be invitational, so the big clubs would never let us in so we would have to remain a minor. Probably bringing Liverpool's or someone's players on for them.

Football has always been cyclical and the mighty have fallen. Look at how prolific Liverpool were but they have never won the Premier League. It will change again to another system, it has in Germany, it can here. When people eventually wake up and realise the damage the Prem is doing and take away their power i.e. just stop watching don't buy Sky etc, it will change again. The problem at the moment is that other countries watch Sky and the Premier League is making a fortune from them. I don't have an answer for them. It will change eventually, it takes time.

 

[SandyMcBlade]

The Premier league is no longer English except in name only, the clubs owners managers and the majority of players are from overseas and any British influence is becoming less each year .
But isn't this just a reflection of the way the whole country has been going for years ?..

 

[Bladesway]

Football has always been cyclical and the mighty have fallen. Look at how prolific Liverpool were but they have never won the Premier League. It will change again to another system, it has in Germany, it can here. When people eventually wake up and realise the damage the Prem is doing and take away their power i.e. just stop watching don't buy Sky etc, it will change again. The problem at the moment is that other countries watch Sky and the Premier League is making a fortune from them. I don't have an answer for them. It will change eventually, it takes time.

I wish I had your faith in the system, but I don't. There are cultural differences between us and Germany that make a difference as well. The Germans in my experience value family run business and looking after their own ahead of all, we don't give a shit who owns our football clubs/companies and put short term fixes ahead of long term sustainability. In my opinion its one reason Germany still makes stuff and we don't. The Germans pay £150 per year for a season ticket to watch Bayern and Arsenal fans pay £1000+ Germany caps its wages but this hasn't stifled the national team. We pay anyone whatever they ask for and our national team is shit.

Its a shame but I don't believe we will get better, only worse.

 

[BladeFisher]

Wolves are considerably richer than we are at the moment.

You mean like this?

 

[Kendal]

Posted on a completely unrelated thread. Been a long week.

Where's the basis for a legal challenge? Football isn't an open market. To join in, you have to agree to the rules. If you don't like the rules you can make a case to change them that gets agreed, or you don't join. Our issue with Wet Sham was different in that they broke the rules and therefore breached their contract with the other premier league clubs, which materially harmed us.

We've been forced to cut our cloth because of FFP, and it seems grossly unfair to those teams that have played by the rules to suddenly change them because a couple of brummy teams (Wolverhampton is Birmingham in the same way that Salford & Stockport are Manchester, so they ARE brummies whatever they may want to claim) don't like it because they're going to have to do what we've done over the last few years. Tough titty lads.

 

[Darren]

I think this challenge is on the back of a challenge a Belgian football agent has made against UEFA's fair play rules as being against the EU's competition law - i.e. it is an unwarranted inteference with the operation of the free market.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/...-today-to-start-financial-fair-play-challenge.

Apparently the European case is unlikely to be decided for 5 years and I think it unlikely we will get a decision in an English case before the European one.

Cue rants against the EU and/or football agents....

 

[Selly]

I think this challenge is on the back of a challenge a Belgian football agent has made against UEFA's fair play rules as being against the EU's competition law - i.e. it is an unwarranted inteference with the operation of the free market.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/...-today-to-start-financial-fair-play-challenge.

Apparently the European case is unlikely to be decided for 5 years and I think it unlikely we will get a decision in an English case before the European one.

Cue rants against the EU and/or football agents....

Its always the Belgians isn`t it?

And yes I will rant against the EU, but I will aso rant against successive UK governments.

Sport is meant to be a competition, andit retains our interst because of the element of the unexpected. The vast majoity of fans in this country, and the world, are not "football fans" but fans of Sheffield Uited, Newcastle United, Norwich City etc etc.

This means that, perhaps even moreso than any other area of life, the cubs have a complete monopoly on my support. Birmigham City could make every game £5 to get in, but I wouldn`t change my allegience. Normal market rules do not apply here fo the consumer.

So here come the EU with their case against the PL's "exclusive" rights. And what is the outcom? Sky/ESPN/BT bid even more to secure the rights they want, and the consumer has to get 2 subsciptions rather than 1 if they want to have the flexibility to watch any televised game legally. Competition rules are meant to be there to ensure the consumer dosn`t get ripped off. This does precisely the opposite.

All of this money thus further distorts the market, wideing the gap between those in the PL and the rest, widening the gap between those in the Champions League and the rest.

FFP is actually pretty fundamentally falwed, in that all it will do is cement the current standings of thoe around those "top" tables. No longer will a Russian oligarch or Saudi Oil magnet be able to buy their way into the top table. Any chage at that top table will now be only because someone there has a nightmare season (Moyes I'm looking at you).

Sport is a special case, but sucessive governments (domstic and European) have not recognised that and have seen to treat the clubs as "normal" businesses, when they are anything but that.

Yes the clubs have to operate solvently, and there should be severe sporting sanctions for clubs that don't. But at the moment I as a consumer hve no choice in how I watch our QF with Charlton. I have to subscribe to BT to do so. If that isn`t a monopoly I don`t know what is...

 

[Darren]

Its always the Belgians isn`t it?

And yes I will rant against the EU, but I will aso rant against successive UK governments.

Sport is meant to be a competition, andit retains our interst because of the element of the unexpected. The vast majoity of fans in this country, and the world, are not "football fans" but fans of Sheffield Uited, Newcastle United, Norwich City etc etc.

This means that, perhaps even moreso than any other area of life, the cubs have a complete monopoly on my support. Birmigham City could make every game £5 to get in, but I wouldn`t change my allegience. Normal market rules do not apply here fo the consumer.

So here come the EU with their case against the PL's "exclusive" rights. And what is the outcom? Sky/ESPN/BT bid even more to secure the rights they want, and the consumer has to get 2 subsciptions rather than 1 if they want to have the flexibility to watch any televised game legally. Competition rules are meant to be there to ensure the consumer dosn`t get ripped off. This does precisely the opposite.

All of this money thus further distorts the market, wideing the gap between those in the PL and the rest, widening the gap between those in the Champions League and the rest.

FFP is actually pretty fundamentally falwed, in that all it will do is cement the current standings of thoe around those "top" tables. No longer will a Russian oligarch or Saudi Oil magnet be able to buy their way into the top table. Any chage at that top table will now be only because someone there has a nightmare season (Moyes I'm looking at you).

Sport is a special case, but sucessive governments (domstic and European) have not recognised that and have seen to treat the clubs as "normal" businesses, when they are anything but that.

Yes the clubs have to operate solvently, and there should be severe sporting sanctions for clubs that don't. But at the moment I as a consumer hve no choice in how I watch our QF with Charlton. I have to subscribe to BT to do so. If that isn`t a monopoly I don`t know what is...

I find it highly amusing that, someone who is generally highly in favour of the free market, when it comes to something he really cares about, argues that it is a "special case" where the rules of the free market do not apply

As you say the problem with the free market in football is that, normal rules of supply and demand do not apply to the football fans in that their clubs have an effective monopoly on their support and can thus charge monopoly prices.

If I was a free market zealot, I would say more fool the football fans. They need to be liberated from their irrational attachments. The clubs charging higher and higher prices will eventually do that via the magic of the free market. Thus what we need is a complete liberation of market forces in football to get rid of the stupidty and irrationality currently involved in the game.

 

[axel smeets]

Its always the Belgians isn`t it?

And yes I will rant against the EU, but I will aso rant against successive UK governments.

Sport is meant to be a competition, andit retains our interst because of the element of the unexpected. The vast majoity of fans in this country, and the world, are not "football fans" but fans of Sheffield Uited, Newcastle United, Norwich City etc etc.

This means that, perhaps even moreso than any other area of life, the cubs have a complete monopoly on my support. Birmigham City could make every game £5 to get in, but I wouldn`t change my allegience. Normal market rules do not apply here fo the consumer.

So here come the EU with their case against the PL's "exclusive" rights. And what is the outcom? Sky/ESPN/BT bid even more to secure the rights they want, and the consumer has to get 2 subsciptions rather than 1 if they want to have the flexibility to watch any televised game legally. Competition rules are meant to be there to ensure the consumer dosn`t get ripped off. This does precisely the opposite.

All of this money thus further distorts the market, wideing the gap between those in the PL and the rest, widening the gap between those in the Champions League and the rest.

FFP is actually pretty fundamentally falwed, in that all it will do is cement the current standings of thoe around those "top" tables. No longer will a Russian oligarch or Saudi Oil magnet be able to buy their way into the top table. Any chage at that top table will now be only because someone there has a nightmare season (Moyes I'm looking at you).

Sport is a special case, but sucessive governments (domstic and European) have not recognised that and have seen to treat the clubs as "normal" businesses, when they are anything but that.

Yes the clubs have to operate solvently, and there should be severe sporting sanctions for clubs that don't. But at the moment I as a consumer hve no choice in how I watch our QF with Charlton. I have to subscribe to BT to do so. If that isn`t a monopoly I don`t know what is...

Surely in a free market economy, if BT Sport has paid more than its competitors to screen said FA Cup game, that's the way it is?

 

[Darren]

And from a free market perspective I find it difficult to see your objection re the TV rights.

The TV companies will pay what they think the product is worth to them - i.e. what they think will help them to make a reasonable profit. No-one then forces anyone to buy the product from them and if they price it too high they will go out of business. I can't see how consumers are getting "ripped off". If they don't want to pay to watch the football they can do something else.

Your argument is essentially a socialist one - that the organisers have football have a duty to sell TV coverage of their product at a "reasonable" price because people who want to watch it should not be priced out of so doing.

If anyone suggested this in relation to any other leisure activity, you would reject it with scorn. It's strange you apply it to football.

 

[TarquinDelouche]

Surely in a free market economy, if BT Sport has paid more than its competitors to screen said FA Cup game, that's the way it is?

In a free market economy, he'd have a choice of ways to experience the game. Such as at the venue, at home, at a friend's house, in the pub, on the radio.... oh.

 

[axel smeets]

BT Sport has benefitted from its parent company being deregulated by the rusting lady in the 1980's and being able to raise large sums of capital through things like share issues etc. Consequently, it is able to pay vast sums of money to crush its competitors and screw football fans everywhere, including Charlton fans for the kick off time on Sunday. Which is precisely the kind of free market economy the rusting lady would have wanted.

 

[Darren]

BT Sport has benefitted from its parent company being deregulated by the rusting lady in the 1980's and being able to raise large sums of capital through things like share issues etc. Consequently, it is able to pay vast sums of money to crush its competitors and screw football fans everywhere, including Charlton fans for the kick off time on Sunday. Which is precisely the kind of free market economy the rusting lady would have wanted.

Isn't the fundmental problem is that most of the money in football now comes from people who watch it on TV so the game is organised around them rather than the people like us who fanatically support a particular club and go to matches.

That's the beauty of the free market: the customer (or the majority thereof) is always right.