Learning from history

[Bergen Blade]

That midfield would see us plummet down the league.
Baxter is more of an attacking threat failed in a holding/ defensive role
Coutts or Hammond more effective than Basham.
Scougall has got to go.

A similarly balanced midfield made us the second best team in this league in spring 2014, behind Wolves.




The problem with Coutts, Hammond and Baxter is their shared inability to cover ground. I think we'd struggle to get enough forward movement and get close to opposition players. How would you try to address that?

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bergen Blade did Done play on the right of a three when we brought him from Rochdale? I thought he was playing as a central striker?

I think he played in several different roles for Rochdale. I think he's got really good potential cutting inside from the right and having efforts on goal with his left foot though:

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Bergen, I think you make some good points regarding the team balance. My only concern is that I don't see that 3 man midfield as being equal to the 2014 one. I think Coady is far better than Basham and that Doyles defensive side gave Scougall more license than he would have in your suggested set up. I'd be inclined to play the same side but with Hammond in ahead of one of Baxter or Scougall letting one of those plays as a number 10. I think Hammond could do the Doyle role but better. I think Basham does the Coady role but worse and I think Scougall or Baxter can do the number 10 role to the same standard. I like the front 3 and I think Sammon and JCR are better sub options than Porter and Davies for if we change to 442 like we used to in games that season.

 

[Balham]

A similarly balanced midfield made us the second best team in this league in spring 2014, behind Wolves.

View attachment 14252


The problem with Coutts, Hammond and Baxter is their shared inability to cover ground. I think we'd struggle to get enough forward movement and get close to opposition players. How would you try to address that?

That's all very well but we only scored 22 goals in those 19 games. That is down to the lack of mobility in midfield and paucity of options up front. We've addressed the latter with the addition of Sharp and emergence of Adams but we are crying out for a mobile central midfielder.

Baxter or Coutts plus Basham or Hammond plus a proper box-to-box man in the middle and we're flying....

NB - I appreciate that we only conceded 8 goals in that time too!

 

[BushBlade]

I think he played in several different roles for Rochdale. I think he's got really good potential cutting inside from the right and having efforts on goal with his left foot though:

Could say the same about Che though. My concern is that we signed Done to play centrally and he might not want to play wide in a three.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Could say the same about Che though. My concern is that we signed Done to play centrally and he might not want to play wide in a three.

I don't think he's likely to get chosen ahead of Sharp and he's not the type to complain, judging by this interview:

 

[Bergen Blade]

That's all very well but we only scored 22 goals in those 19 games. That is down to the lack of mobility in midfield and paucity of options up front. We've addressed the latter with the addition of Sharp and emergence of Adams but we are crying out for a mobile central midfielder.

Baxter or Coutts plus Basham or Hammond plus a proper box-to-box man in the middle and we're flying....

NB - I appreciate that we only conceded 8 goals in that time too!

One of the main points with the suggested team was to make it more mobile, hence only one of Coutts, Baxter (and Hammond) in the same midfield. No new signings allowed! The list of box to box players show our options, and our central midfielders with poor stamina don't qualify. Before we try players in new positions I'd like us to give Scougall and Basham a chance.

 

[BushBlade]

I don't think he's likely to get chosen ahead of Sharp and he's not the type to complain, judging by this interview:

What else is he going to say?

 

[Rudders]

Need some mobility at CH otherwise the defensive line drops deeper and deeper.

Craig Short was world class at getting us out and defending further up the field. Although the defence was slow that year it was very strong and powerful in the air. We also had a very slick offside trap. Our super solid defence was one of the main reasons we got promotion. Until then and in seasons since we have defended way to deep, attracting teams onto us.
Its annoying as its just basic organisation. The same goes for our constant conceding at corners this years.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bergen, I think you make some good points regarding the team balance. My only concern is that I don't see that 3 man midfield as being equal to the 2014 one. I think Coady is far better than Basham and that Doyles defensive side gave Scougall more license than he would have in your suggested set up. I'd be inclined to play the same side but with Hammond in ahead of one of Baxter or Scougall letting one of those plays as a number 10. I think Hammond could do the Doyle role but better. I think Basham does the Coady role but worse and I think Scougall or Baxter can do the number 10 role to the same standard. I like the front 3 and I think Sammon and JCR are better sub options than Porter and Davies for if we change to 442 like we used to in games that season.

Doyle had a sweeping up role, which suited him. Hammond could do that as well, but his playmaking looks ordinary (too) and that means we require more from the two box to box players (no real number 10 in my team). Basham isn't as good as Coady offensively, so we need more in terms of playmaking from the deep midfielder to achieve similar balance.

 

[Bergen Blade]

What else is he going to say?

I see Done as a mediocre winger. And he's certainly not the creative wide type a la Williamson or Quinn. An inside forward role where he's encouraged to get into the box and link up with Sharp, leaving the responsibility of width to the full back, should suit him well.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Doyle had a sweeping up role, which suited him. Hammond could do that as well, but his playmaking looks ordinary (too) and that means we require more from the two box to box players (no real number 10 in my team). Basham isn't as good as Coady offensively, so we need more in terms of playmaking from the deep midfielder to achieve similar balance.

I get the reasoning I just think that

a) in the absence of Maguire at CB, the midfield has to be better defensively and
b) There's not enough positional discipline or physicality with Basham/Baxter/Scougall.

I'd play Hammond in the Doyle role. I think, given time, he will prove to be better than Doyle there and that Baxter or Coutts might offer more than Scougall to make up for the fact that Basham can't offer nearly as much going forward as Coady.

I don't think Scougall is effective in a team that is on the front foot trying to break physical sides down. I think he only really works when hitting teams on the break.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

Doyle had a sweeping up role, which suited him. Hammond could do that as well, but his playmaking looks ordinary (too) and that means we require more from the two box to box players (no real number 10 in my team). Basham isn't as good as Coady offensively, so we need more in terms of playmaking from the deep midfielder to achieve similar balance.

See the logic of your formation & personnel (& fully agree with the need for focus on that exceptional front three), but reckon there are big problems with your midfield despite agreeing about Baxter being better served by the withdrawn role you suggest.

Basham, for me, has been a major disappointment in midfield this season (especially so as I was amongst those calling for him to be returned to midfield towards the end of last season) - on this season's showing, he's far worse than Coady defensively as well as offensively. He's been a marginal, peripheral figure. And the words "marginal" & "peripheral" have come to define Scougs in my eyes - he doesn't do enough in a creative, attacking sense as a no.10-type & offers virtually nothing defensively.

Maybe, if Basham was let off the leash (as in your suggested formation) as a box-to-box midfielder to use his dynamism & energy. And maybe Scougs would offer more as part of a two man advanced midfield. But I just think Bash's lack of quality on the ball is beginning to shine through, & I think that Scougs has far too much of a tendency to hide & not take on responsibility.

I'm just hoping that Hammond - though he's shown very little sign of it yet - is going to bring the energy & gusto to the table that Nigel enthusiastically suggests he will in this week's pre-match interview. It could make all the difference if Hammond could provide those missing elements of drive & forward momentum in the midfield area.

 

[Bergen Blade]

See the logic of your formation & personnel (& fully agree with the need for focus on that exceptional front three), but reckon there are big problems with your midfield despite agreeing about Baxter being better served by the withdrawn role you suggest.

Basham, for me, has been a major disappointment in midfield this season (especially so as I was amongst those calling for him to be returned to midfield towards the end of last season) - on this season's showing, he's far worse than Coady defensively as well as offensively. He's been a marginal, peripheral figure. And the words "marginal" & "peripheral" have come to define Scougs in my eyes - he doesn't do enough in a creative, attacking sense as a no.10-type & offers virtually nothing defensively.

Maybe, if Basham was let off the leash (as in your suggested formation) as a box-to-box midfielder to use his dynamism & energy. And maybe Scougs would offer more as part of a two man advanced midfield. But I just think Bash's lack of quality on the ball is beginning to shine through, & I think that Scougs has far too much of a tendency to hide & not take on responsibility.

I'm just hoping that Hammond - though he's shown very little sign of it yet - is going to bring the energy & gusto to the table that Nigel enthusiastically suggests he will in this week's pre-match interview. It could make all the difference if Hammond could provide those missing elements of drive & forward momentum in the midfield area.

Basham has struggled most games when he's been part of a holding two. With a slightly deeper playmaker doing all the passing from deep and not given license to go forward, what is he supposed to do?

From a defensive perspective it's been difficult for him too. He can't chase and press like he wants to, if the rest of the midfield aren't doing the same (this requires great work rate and not all our midfielders can do it well). Basham's simply not been able to get stuck in where the midfield battle is, as he's been too deep. His role has not been ideal for him.

If Basham had one holding player behind him and another who's good at pressing alongside him I think he would be much more effective, get tackles in and we'd stop teams running straight through us. I wouldn't expect superb through balls, but as part of attacking waves, keeping up the momentum of attacks, adding movement and a presence in the box (like at Swindon and Doncaster) I think he could do well.

 

[BushBlade]

I see Done as a mediocre winger. And he's certainly not the creative wide type a la Williamson or Quinn. An inside forward role where he's encouraged to get into the box and link up with Sharp, leaving the responsibility of width to the full back, should suit him well.

Well if NA plays him there, we'll see.

 

[BushBlade]

Doyle had a sweeping up role, which suited him. Hammond could do that as well, but his playmaking looks ordinary (too) and that means we require more from the two box to box players (no real number 10 in my team). Basham isn't as good as Coady offensively, so we need more in terms of playmaking from the deep midfielder to achieve similar balance.

Agree about Doyle but NA has just signed Hammond, presumably after shouting at the board to sort it out.
So he's going to play him, just as he's going to play Sharp.
If you're putting Sharp at CF over Done because that's what NA will do, you have to play Hammond as well.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Agree about Doyle but NA has just signed Hammond, presumably after shouting at the board to sort it out.
So he's going to play him, just as he's going to play Sharp.
If you're putting Sharp at CF over Done because that's what NA will do, you have to play Hammond as well.

No, at the moment I would also play Sharp up front. Agree that Hammond signing will reduce the chances of my suggestion being tried. Scougs is not even on the bench at the moment and we have reverted to 4-4-2. Let's hope whatever Adkins is planning will work.

 

[BushBlade]

No, at the moment I would also play Sharp up front. Agree that Hammond signing will reduce the chances of my suggestion being tried. Scougs is not even on the bench at the moment and we have reverted to 4-4-2. Let's hope whatever Adkins is planning will work.

Yes, let's hope so.

Ultimately, my point is that with the existing players, it's very difficult to find a formation that suits them all and gets the best out of them. In this case it's because we've changed managers too frequently. We were in a similar situation with Blackwell when we had players like Evans ( most suited to 442) and Britton (only suited for 3 in cm) but Blackwell managed to do it to himself.

 

[blade67]

Best bet with what we've got IMO:

Howard
Brayford Basham Edgar Harris
Baxter Coutts
Hammond
Adams Sharp Done

Gets the essentials in place: the dangerous front 3 of Adams/Sharp/Done, Baxter in deep-lying creative role (with potential to interchange with a more advanced Hammond), & the attacking full-back prowess of Brayford & Harris.

Hammond playing an advanced harrying role.

Basham dropped back into his best position.

Potential on the bench to alter things - JCR as winger, Sammon as big man, Reed as more aggressive partner for Baxter.

Swap Hammond with Baxter and I agree this looks the best side we can put out (assuming that J Wallace isn't going to figure)

I think Hammond is really a replacement for Doyle but hopefully a level or two higher and Baxter needs to be operating as far from our defence as possible. His passing style is high risk and high reward at times and that needs to be conducted near their penalty area not ours.

Final comment on the team you have picked, only 1 of those defenders is available for selection today and that is perhaps at the heart of our problems, until they become fit the defence looks like

Freeman- Collins - Basham - K Wallace

Roll on January when I'm hoping NA can perform a bit of a cull and add a couple of players to solve long term problems in the heart of the side

 

[blade67]

Below are three of our most successful teams in recent history, all with good balance and certain things that they did really well.



Warnock's promotion team 2005/06:

4-4-2

Kenny
Bromby Morgan Short Unsworth
Ifill Monty Jags A.Quinn
Shipperley Kabba​

• An experienced, strong side, went out to win the battle and also had the quality to edge matches
• Notable squad members:
  • Geary/Kozluk (right back) - added pace/energy
  • Gillespie (right wing) - better crossing/passing, less dribbling
  • Tonge (central or left midfield) - added creativity
  • Armstrong (left midfield) - added energy and aggression in front of Unsworth
  • Webber - replaced Kabba when he ran out of steam
• Tall and physically strong defence
• Very hard working central midfield - ball winner and box to box combo
• Creativity and through balls from A.Quinn
• A very direct winger in Ifill made us less predictable
• Classic target man/quick striker combination
• Good squad, other team members came in and made great contributions

Wilson's 2011/12 side before Evans was put in prison:

4-4-2:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins LFJ
Williamson McDonald Doyle S.Quinn
Cresswell Evans​

• Great composure and technique in the side, could outpass teams
• A fabulous finisher in Evans
• Notable team members:
  • Flynn - gave a bit more width in some games
  • Porter - added aerial ability
• Team coped without great pace/dribblers
• Skilful, overlapping full backs
• Playmaker/anchor man combo in midfield, neither too advanced
• Creativity out wide, no out and out wingers
• Experience and goalgetter combo up front

Clough's giant killing and table climbing 2013/14 side:

4-3-3/4-1-4-1:

Howard
Brayford Maguire Collins Harris
Doyle
Coady - - - Scougall
Flynn - - - - - - - - - - - - Murphy
Baxter

​

• A great counter attacking and mobile side
• Essentially a 4-5-1, even without an out and out striker (Baxter was a false 9)
• But great forward movement from virtually every player
• Notable squad members:
  • Porter - scored quite a few as sub
  • McGinn - did the holding role well when Doyle was out
• Doyle anchoring, flanked by Coady/Scougall in box to box roles
• Quick and direct wingers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At times the past couple of seasons it's been difficult to see what we're supposed to be really good at. We are lacking something, whatever we've tried. When we've addressed something, another weakness has appeared.

I think there's potential in the current team, especially with the likes of Done, Adams and Sharp, but how do we compose the team to make effective use of these assets? Midfield selection still looks a bit difficult. Before we dismiss the current bunch and pray for better replacements in January, let's focus on how we can make the most of what we've got, and maybe we can use the above well-balanced teams for inspiration?

Just re -read the whole thread and a couple of things come to mind along with an alternative option.

1 Only one of those teams actually got promoted and it played with a centre half (Jags) and Monty in CM. In effect two athletes and no playmaker. The team is full of strength and pace.
2 Given midfield is being identified throughout this thread, one option is to play Sammon, miss out the midfield, get the ball forward early and play of his knock downs where our best players are located.

I think this would give our opponents lots of problems, affect their set-up and shape and give players like Adams space to operate.

Howard
freeman - collins - Edgar - wallace
Adams - Hammond - Basham - Done
Sharp - Sammon

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Just re -read the whole thread and a couple of things come to mind along with an alternative option.

1 Only one of those teams actually got promoted and it played with a centre half (Jags) and Monty in CM. In effect two athletes and no playmaker. The team is full of strength and pace.
2 Given midfield is being identified throughout this thread, one option is to play Sammon, miss out the midfield, get the ball forward early and play of his knock downs where our best players are located.

I think this would give our opponents lots of problems, affect their set-up and shape and give players like Adams space to operate.

Howard
freeman - collins - Edgar - wallace
Adams - Hammond - Basham - Done
Sharp - Sammon

There's some sense in that but...Did you just advocate Route One?

 

[blade67]

There's some sense in that but...Did you just advocate Route One?

Yes Tin hat is on and to be honest not bothered if I get some stick

What I want to see is a team that creates chances, competes hard and looks solid at the back. Keith Edwards has been saying something similar, the only difference is that if we actually started doing this Keith would be moaning about us not keeping possession, whereas I wouldn't