Kyle Walker and Phil Jagielka

[cooperblade]

From the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/10/kyle-walker-england-hero

Kyle Walker has spent his week feeling star-struck. There was the slightly awkward moment when the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge strode across the pristine playing surface on the elite practice pitch at St George's Park to meet the England squad and, in his own words, "a boy from Sheffield shook hands with royalty". The small talk might have felt rather contrived, but at least that fleeting set-piece for the cameras had been stage-managed. It is actually the boyhood hero with whom Walker now rubs shoulders who leaves him tongue-tied.

The Tottenham Hotspur full-back's obsession with Phil Jagielka was forged in the Steel City. It dates from the days when Walker sat in the stands at Bramall Lane and chorused the home player's name with the rest of the Sheffield United faithful, the youngster who was then making his name under Neil Warnock hoisted to iconic status by a half-volleyed injury-time equaliser from 35 yards against Terry Venables's Leeds in a League Cup tie a decade ago. These days the pair are England team-mates expected to line up alongside each other against San Marino on Friday. Walker may regret his honesty, and the veneration apparently never extended to tacking a poster of his hero to his bedroom wall, but his secret is still out.

"I'm a Sheffield United boy so, growing up, it was Brian Deane and then, when I fell back into defence, it was Phil," he said. "He was a hero of mine. I was jumping up and down in the Family stand, where they put the youth team, when he scored that goal against Leeds. He took it down on his chest, half-volleyed it and it's flown in. And I was the ball boy behind the net when he went in goal [against Arsenal in a Premier League fixture in December 2006 which the hosts won 1-0]. He kept telling me to slow down when I was retrieving the ball. So I have seen some sights with him.

"He was at the club when they went up to the Premiership and I signed my scholarship, but he moved on to Everton just as I was coming through. I've never told him he was a hero of mine, so don't make his head too big, but to come here and play with him, to sit with and eat with him is an honour. Sometimes he tries to get me a bowl of soup at dinner and I have to say to him: 'You can't be doing that. Let me get you some soup.' Just sitting next to him having dinner's pretty good."

The respect feels quirky, if also refreshing: a case of a club's youth-team product having inspired those graduates still working their way up a productive system with the Blades. And yet it does also offer an indication of progression within the England set-up. Walker will earn his first competitive cap against San Marino in the absence of the suspended Glen Johnson, and will have the opportunity to stake a claim to retain his place for Tuesday's far more daunting trip to Poland. The Spurs right-back's form is impressive at club level, a galloping presence going forward who, like most young full-backs in the Premier League, is admittedly still seeking to add to his defensive game. That assurance, hopefully, will come with experience.

But, having missed out on a place at Euro 2012 with a toe injury, Walker is now established as direct competition for Johnson, ahead of Micah Richards and with Chris Smalling and Phil Jones – who have both featured for England at right-back even if they are centre-halves at heart – now injured. San Marino will offer little threat and will be vulnerable to his raids down the flank. This is a chance to impose himself in an anticipated mismatch, even if his own assessment of relatively rapid progress – Kyle Naughton, with whom he was transferred to White Hart Lane for a joint deal worth around £9m, was supposed to been the immediate "contender" of the pair – remains realistic.

"I've done nothing: I'm 22 and I've done absolutely nothing in my career so far," he said. "I had a good last season, winning young player of the year, but that's just the start and, hopefully, I can go on. I'm young. I want to improve. I want to become the best I can be. Gary Neville is here on the coaching staff, a player I looked up to and watched often in the past, and someone who gives me tips. I'm excited to be working with him and playing with the players I am.

"My defending is improving every week. It's just about experience and learning off the likes of Joleon Lescott, Phil Jagielka and Gary Cahill. Glen Johnson is a world-class right-back, someone I've got a lot to do [to displace], but hopefully my time will come. I have to be patient. And then there's Ashley [Cole]. To have nearly 100 caps, he must be doing something right so you try and be a sponge, pick up on what he's doing and take it into your own game. Watching him play, seeing what he has achieved … that's what I want to achieve, too."

That his first competitive opportunity should come in what should prove an uncompetitive qualifier does not detract from the sense of occasion. San Marino may have lost 108 of their 114 games, a team out of its depth on this stage, but Walker cannot see past a cap and his chance to impress. "Who wouldn't be excited? From the age of seven, this is what I've wanted to do: play for my country. I don't treat games any differently, whether it's Manchester United, Real Madrid or San Marino. We have to show them respect and do the job, not showboat and show off."
Heaven forbid Jagielka attempts an early step-over. The full-back at his side might offer up a tongue lashing, childhood idol or not.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

Don't normally read the Grauniad, so would have missed it, thanks for that coops.

George

 

[Kendal]

Was THAT goal really 10 years ago? Doesn't seem that long!
Its good to see he's got his feet on the ground and realises he's not done anything yet. Just a shame both have moved on. But even if we were still in the premiership and had them playing together, neither would be anywhere near the England squad.
Hopefully the pair will make a good partnership for England. having both come through the same junior setup, they're quite likely to be on a similar wavelength. Jags is getting on a bit now though.

 

[Balham]

Was THAT goal really 10 years ago? Doesn't seem that long!
Its good to see he's got his feet on the ground and realises he's not done anything yet. Just a shame both have moved on. But even if we were still in the premiership and had them playing together, neither would be anywhere near the England squad.
Hopefully the pair will make a good partnership for England. having both come through the same junior setup, they're quite likely to be on a similar wavelength. Jags is getting on a bit now though.

Jagielka "getting on a bit"? He's 30!

 

[BusheyBlade]

And I was the ball boy behind the net when he went in goal [against Arsenal in a Premier League fixture in December 2006 which the hosts won 1-0]. He kept telling me to slow down when I was retrieving the ball.

I was hiding behind the sofa that Saturday evening. I've never known a second half drag on so long!

The link in that article has highlights of the game with Jags goal and Nuddy winner. I still remember the game so clearly, I drove up for it and was knackered the following day after about an hour of sleep. But it was incredibly worth it!

 

[Kendal]

Jagielka "getting on a bit"? He's 30!

Missed the smiley didn't I! plenty of posters on here seem to think early 30s is past it when talking about possible new signings.

 

[Tuns]

Was THAT goal really 10 years ago? Doesn't seem that long!
Its good to see he's got his feet on the ground and realises he's not done anything yet. Just a shame both have moved on. But even if we were still in the premiership and had them playing together, neither would be anywhere near the England squad..

Think both could have played for England with us. Somehow we had got ourselves into a position where we could have been a half decent club before in time honoured fashion it all went tits up for us.

If we'd stayed up we could have kicked on with sensible buys and decent kids coming through, comfortably top 10 attendances with sensible ground expansion given the demand from home and away fans.

A top eight spot was feasible. I don't think we would have held them back unless Warnock proved incapable of developing them to their full potential, which I guess was entirely possible.

 

[Darren]

Think both could have played for England with us. Somehow we had got ourselves into a position where we could have been a half decent club before in time honoured fashion it all went tits up for us.

If we'd stayed up we could have kicked on with sensible buys and decent kids coming through, comfortably top 10 attendances with sensible ground expansion given the demand from home and away fans.

A top eight spot was feasible. I don't think we would have held them back unless Warnock proved incapable of developing them to their full potential, which I guess was entirely possible.

Jags got a England B cap just before he left us and I think its right that he would have played in the full team the following season even if he had still been with us.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Think both could have played for England with us. Somehow we had got ourselves into a position where we could have been a half decent club before in time honoured fashion it all went tits up for us.

If we'd stayed up we could have kicked on with sensible buys and decent kids coming through, comfortably top 10 attendances with sensible ground expansion given the demand from home and away fans.

A top eight spot was feasible. I don't think we would have held them back unless Warnock proved incapable of developing them to their full potential, which I guess was entirely possible.

Jags got a England B cap just before he left us and I think its right that he would have played in the full team the following season even if he had still been with us.

Not a chance in my opinion.

Clubs like Stoke and Fulham have been hovering around the top half of The Premiership for years and how many of their teams are England regulars? Reserves from the "big" clubs (e.g. Smalling, Jones, Cleverly, Shelvey) will always get selected ahead of players from clubs like Sheffield United.

Deano was one of the top English strikers in the top division for years but would any manager other than Graham Taylor have picked him? Even then he only got a few token friendlies when the big club's players were "resting".

 

[Balham]

Not a chance in my opinion.

Clubs like Stoke and Fulham have been hovering around the top half of The Premiership for years and how many of their teams are England regulars? Reserves from the "big" clubs (e.g. Smalling, Jones, Cleverly, Shelvey) will always get selected ahead of players from clubs like Sheffield United.

Fulham's team from the 2-2 draw at Southampton:

• 01 Schwarzer - Australia
• 03 Riise - Norway
• 05 Hangeland - Norway
• 06 Baird - N. Ireland
• 18 Hughes - N. Ireland
• 27 Riether - Germany
• 07 Sidwell - England (Karagounis - Greece )
• 16 Duff - Rep. of Ireland
• 31 Kacaniklic - England (Richardson - England )
• 11 Ruiz - Paraguay
• 20 Rodallega - Colombia

Of the 15 players on the pitch, 3 would qualify for England. Sidwell failed at the top level and is understandably nowhere near the England team while Richardson has 8 caps and Kacaniklic is an U-21 international with a bright future.
Stoke's team from the 0-0 at Liverpool

• 01 Begovic - Bosnia
• 02 Cameron - USA
• 04 Huth - Germany
• 12 Wilson - Rep. Ireland
• 17 Shawcross - England
• 06 Whelan - Rep. Ireland (Whitehead - England)
• 15 Nzonzi - France
• 16 Adam - Scotland (Edu - USA )
• 21 Kightly - England (Etherington - England )
• 19 Walters - Rep. Ireland
• 25 Crouch - England

This time, 4 Englishmen. One has 42 caps (Crouch) but is being overlooked in favour of Carroll at the moment. Shawcross has a chance now that Terry has retired; Kightly and Whitehead aren't good enough.
You've named Jones (Man U regular when fit) and Smalling (ditto): would you honestly choose Shawcross over either of them?
I'd also say that Cleverley is considerably better than Whitehead and it's been acknowledged that Shelvey is only in the senior squad "for the experience".

If a player is good enough, they'll become an England regular, no matter who they play for. It's just more likely that the players good enough will be at a top team and in a squad rotation system. I don't know whether Jagielka would have made the grade had he stayed with United as we would have probably continued to play him at centre-midfield, which isn't his best position.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Fulham's team from the 2-2 draw at Southampton:

• 01 Schwarzer - Australia
• 03 Riise - Norway
• 05 Hangeland - Norway
• 06 Baird - N. Ireland
• 18 Hughes - N. Ireland
• 27 Riether - Germany
• 07 Sidwell - England (Karagounis - Greece )
• 16 Duff - Rep. of Ireland
• 31 Kacaniklic - England (Richardson - England )
• 11 Ruiz - Paraguay
• 20 Rodallega - Colombia

Of the 15 players on the pitch, 3 would qualify for England. Sidwell failed at the top level and is understandably nowhere near the England team while Richardson has 8 caps and Kacaniklic is an U-21 international with a bright future.

Stoke's team from the 0-0 at Liverpool

• 01 Begovic - Bosnia
• 02 Cameron - USA
• 04 Huth - Germany
• 12 Wilson - Rep. Ireland
• 17 Shawcross - England
• 06 Whelan - Rep. Ireland (Whitehead - England)
• 15 Nzonzi - France
• 16 Adam - Scotland (Edu - USA )
• 21 Kightly - England (Etherington - England )
• 19 Walters - Rep. Ireland
• 25 Crouch - England

This time, 4 Englishmen. One has 42 caps (Crouch) but is being overlooked in favour of Carroll at the moment. Shawcross has a chance now that Terry has retired; Kightly and Whitehead aren't good enough.

You've named Jones (Man U regular when fit) and Smalling (ditto): would you honestly choose Shawcross over either of them?
I'd also say that Cleverley is considerably better than Whitehead and it's been acknowledged that Shelvey is only in the senior squad "for the experience".

If a player is good enough, they'll become an England regular, no matter who they play for. It's just more likely that the players good enough will be at a top team and in a squad rotation system. I don't know whether Jagielka would have made the grade had he stayed with United as we would have probably continued to play him at centre-midfield, which isn't his best position.

I agree that most good players will eventually move to a "big" club at which point they will potentially become an England regular.
Smalling and Jones are prime examples. Neither was considered good enough for England while playing for Fulham and Blackburn. Literally weeks later after moving to Man Utd, they were selected for the England squad.
Cahill hardly got a look in while he was with Bolton. Now he's at Chelsea, he's a regular.

"If a player is good enough, they'll become an England regular, no matter who they play for"

It's an interesting claim. I'm strugging to think of (m)any England "regulars" who don't play for big clubs.
Presumably there must be loads?

 

[Kendal]

It's an interesting claim. I'm strugging to think of (m)any England "regulars" who don't play for big clubs.
Presumably there must be loads?

Jags & Everton?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

"If a player is good enough, they'll become an England regular, no matter who they play for"

It's an interesting claim. I'm strugging to think of (m)any England "regulars" who don't play for big clubs.
Presumably there must be loads?

That surely is also because if a player is good enough to play regularly for England, he's probably going to be a) either at a Top club or b) highly desired by the top clubs

David James wasn't at a top club when he was the Undisputed No 1

 

[Sothall_Blade]

That surely is also because if a player is good enough to play regularly for England, he's probably going to be a) either at a Top club or b) highly desired by the top clubs

Exactly, which is why neither Jagielka or Walker would have had the same England career if they'd stayed with is, even if we were in The Premiership.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

That surely is also because if a player is good enough to play regularly for England, he's probably going to be a) either at a Top club or b) highly desired by the top clubs

David James wasn't at a top club when he was the Undisputed No 1

Fair enough, though I think that was more a case of neither him nor his rivals being good enough to play for a top club

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Exactly, which is why neither Jagielka or Walker would have had the same England career if they'd stayed with is, even if we were in The Premiership.

Hang on, i'm not agreeing with you

What i'm saying, is if you're good enough to be playing for England you will a) be at a top club already, or b) being looked at by the top clubs. If jags had stayed with us had we stayed up, someone would have put a mammoth bid in for him.

It's not that players from unfashionable clubs don't get picked, it's just that the best players don't tend to play for unfashionable clubs....

Walker may not have even got a look in with us were we still in the premier league when it was his time. It was only becuase he shone at a lower tlevel that he was snapped up. He'd probably have been an understudy to some carthorse if we'd still been in the top flight...

 

[Samantha]

Was THAT goal really 10 years ago?.

THAT goal was 6th November 2002 - my 19th birthday. A birthday 'present' that I will never, ever forget!

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Hang on, i'm not agreeing with you

What i'm saying, is if you're good enough to be playing for England you will a) be at a top club already, or b) being looked at by the top clubs. If jags had stayed with us had we stayed up, someone would have put a mammoth bid in for him.

It's not that players from unfashionable clubs don't get picked, it's just that the best players don't tend to play for unfashionable clubs....

Walker may not have even got a look in with us were we still in the premier league when it was his time. It was only becuase he shone at a lower tlevel that he was snapped up. He'd probably have been an understudy to some carthorse if we'd still been in the top flight...

And in almost every case the move to a big club has to come first or the regular international career doesn't happen

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I think it's more of a case that once you've got a couple of caps under your belt, you're more on the big clubs radar. I don't think it's a case of you have to be at a big club to be an England regular, more of a case of if you're good enough to be playing on the international stage, you're more likely to be playing for a top club.

Like i said, play for England a few times, and you'll probably score a move to a bigger club.

Plenty of the Current Squad and recent callups scored their first few caps at smaller clubs.

Gareth Barry, Stewert downing, Defoe, Crouch, Rooney, Rio Ferdinand, Jagielka, Lampard, Scott parker, Darren Bent, Bobby Zamora, Gary Cahill etc.

There's also the factor that you have to prove yourself worthy of a callup, and prove that your worth a start instead of the (more experienced) players that are currently playing there.

The players who look at England players and think "I could do better" should probably be instead thinking "Why am i not playing for a big club like them?" Because club managers don't worry about transferring players from unfashionable teams do they?

 

[Tuns]

Not a chance in my opinion.

Clubs like Stoke and Fulham have been hovering around the top half of The Premiership for years and how many of their teams are England regulars? Reserves from the "big" clubs (e.g. Smalling, Jones, Cleverly, Shelvey) will always get selected ahead of players from clubs like Sheffield United.

Deano was one of the top English strikers in the top division for years but would any manager other than Graham Taylor have picked him? Even then he only got a few token friendlies when the big club's players were "resting".

I think Walker is so talented his England call up would have been inevitable even with us.

I worshipped Deano but I wouldn't put him in the same bracket at international level.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Would a 17 year old Theo Walcott have been selected for the 2006 World Cup ahead of Senior players if he had been a Southampton player not an Arsenal Reserve?

Would Matt Le Tissier have won more than 8 England Caps if he'd moved from Southampton to a "big" club?

Was Joe Shaw not the "Best uncapped Centre-Half in England"?

Did Alan Woodward deserve to get an England cap? Tony Currie more than he did?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

The Walcott decision was to be frank, a littel bonkers, but then again, so was Sven

Le Tissier was seen as a luxury player by both the big clubs and the english management. Didn't run far enough. His showreel looks fantastic, but i bet his OPTA stats were pretty shit had he been italian, the azzuri would have probably built the team around him.

Moving to a big club didn't help Steve Bruce did it?

 

[Darren]

Would a 17 year old Theo Walcott have been selected for the 2006 World Cup ahead of Senior players if he had been a Southampton player not an Arsenal Reserve?

Would Matt Le Tissier have won more than 8 England Caps if he'd moved from Southampton to a "big" club?

Was Joe Shaw not the "Best uncapped Centre-Half in England"?

Did Alan Woodward deserve to get an England cap? Tony Currie more than he did?

Come on, we need some proper stats. I demand % of England caps won by players from Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal since 2004.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Would a 17 year old Theo Walcott have been selected for the 2006 World Cup ahead of Senior players if he had been a Southampton player not an Arsenal Reserve?

Would Matt Le Tissier have won more than 8 England Caps if he'd moved from Southampton to a "big" club?

Was Joe Shaw not the "Best uncapped Centre-Half in England"?

Did Alan Woodward deserve to get an England cap? Tony Currie more than he did?

I can't really comment on Shaw, except to say "best uncapped centre-half" could also read as "Best of the players not good enough to play for england" -- See Steve Bruce as another example.

Were woodward and currie better than the players in the england team at the time, and did they fit into the style of the National manager at the time? -- See Matt Le Tissier as an example of this.

 

[Revolution]

Would Matt Le Tissier have won more than 8 England Caps if he'd moved from Southampton to a "big" club?

Probably, but it would also have helped if he'd actually played well for England when he did get the chance. I well remember his poor display against Italy in the 1998 qualifiers, for example.

 

[Guesty]

Would a 17 year old Theo Walcott have been selected for the 2006 World Cup ahead of Senior players if he had been a Southampton player not an Arsenal Reserve?

Would Matt Le Tissier have won more than 8 England Caps if he'd moved from Southampton to a "big" club?

Was Joe Shaw not the "Best uncapped Centre-Half in England"?

Did Alan Woodward deserve to get an England cap? Tony Currie more than he did?

Legendary (to me anyway) Post Punk band and Tranmere Rovers fans Half Man Half Biscuit described Len Badger as 'England's finest ever uncapped Right Back'. In fact they even got in a London taxi and when the Cabbie mentioned he'd had Badger as a fare some night previously, the band all asked if they could touch the cab reverently on the bonnet as they left!

 

[Darren]

Legendary (to me anyway) Post Punk band and Tranmere Rovers fans Half Man Half Biscuit described Len Badger as 'England's finest ever uncapped Right Back'. In fact they even got in a London taxi and when the Cabbie mentioned he'd had Badger as a fare some night previously, the band all asked if they could touch the cab reverently on the bonnet as they left!

Both Badger and Woodward did get a look in in the England set up. Badger player for the under 23's on many occasions an both of them played for the Football League (effectively the England B team of the Ramsey era). One can only assume that Ramsey did not think they could make the step up to the senior team.

 

[Guesty]

We had a entire flank made of players widely thought to be the best uncapped players in their respective positions of their era! That's quite a distinction, albeit a dubious one.

England not playing with Wingers can't have helped Woodward's case.

 

[LA Blade]

Watched the game here...

 

[Sheff de party]

Was THAT goal really 10 years ago? Doesn't seem that long!

Hopefully the pair will make a good partnership for England. having both come through the same junior setup, they're quite likely to be on a similar wavelength. Jags is getting on a bit now though.

Two people who came through a youth set up 10 years apart and havent played together before last night? bound to be in perfect synergy