Just a thought but....

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SwissBlade said:
I'm not posting as much on here because of the time differences but keeping in contact and up until signing marlon king I was waking up at 3-4am to listen to midweek games, and late night for sat games. not every game but a few. Being someone who's worked away for the last ten years I've spent a lot of time judging games and performances based on what I hear/ read and watch on highlights and connecting it with what i see when i go to games. Obviously I can't comment on individual performances but I'm also picking up things from several on here who's opinions I trust.

The absurd suggestion that I'm not allowed an opinion is just daft. I'm perhaps detached from things in some ways but it perhaps also gives a more objective view.

The view I expressed on here was that we fired a man after less than a quarter of a season. Fair enough it's a results business. But I've said it many times before. If you're going to sack the man, you've got to have a better man ready to hit the ground running. When was the last time we did this? Wilson or Blackwell perhaps.

Sack weir on a Friday or sack him after the cov game, but have the new man in on Monday.

Right now were sat more than a week into his sacking and we'll have a bunch of players being guided by weir, carsley, Morgs, Wadsworth, the new man, his coach.

This club will never get stability like this. We're bloody awful at employing managers, but by god were shite at firing !
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I agree with the timing being a bit wrong, however I think we should have done it before we did, however had someone lined up to do it. As it is, I don't think it's worked out too badly considering what has happened before.

To me it was like a slow death with Weir, and I don't go to as many away games I do, however everyt ime I read a twitter update from Foxy you could see every ounce of him trying to say something positive. It's not like we had a good spell under Weir to compare it against. It was horrible at home games as nobody wanted Weir to fail but they knew the right thing had to be done. It honestly felt like the right thing to do however felt like we were stabbing a brother in the back when it was done.
 
SwissBlade said:
The view I expressed on here was that we fired a man after less than a quarter of a season. Fair enough it's a results business. But I've said it many times before. If you're going to sack the man, you've got to have a better man ready to hit the ground running. When was the last time we did this? Wilson or Blackwell perhaps.
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I'd normally agree, but not in this case. We were better off without Weir, even if we'd put a Monkey in charge. And I mean that, seriously things were that bad and going backwards.

Bang average management and a kick up the arse will see a quick improvement. So we've still gained.

In terms of the speed of the sacking, it's a quick one. But he's had an entire pre season, quite a bit of financial backing, 10 league games that left us bottom of division 3, and 3 cup games against even lower division opposition, none of which we could beat over 90 minutes.

In this case, there was excessive information available already to tell us he was incompetent, and 20,000 people availiable who could do a better job from day 1.

Adrian Heath was nearer to Alex Ferguson than he was to David Weir.

UTB
 
sheffielder said:
I agree with the timing being a bit wrong, however I think we should have done it before we did, however had someone lined up to do it. As it is, I don't think it's worked out too badly considering what has happened before.

To me it was like a slow death with Weir, and I don't go to as many away games I do, however everyt ime I read a twitter update from Foxy you could see every ounce of him trying to say something positive. It's not like we had a good spell under Weir to compare it against. It was horrible at home games as nobody wanted Weir to fail but they knew the right thing had to be done. It honestly felt like the right thing to do however felt like we were stabbing a brother in the back when it was done.
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Fair enough on Weir, I don't believe that he had time, but had he got a couple of results he might've survived. Speed was perhaps an example of this. He really didnt get us playing inspiring stuff but managed to dig a couple of wins out, yet he then got picked up for Wales and managed to build something there.

I also felt that the Weir sacking only masks the problems. It doesn't really address the real issues. We're making the same mistakes with loans again and again. Bunn and Coady, see Poleon and the kid from Man U. Marlon King is a unique one because of his baggage, but he's also another kitson. Talented but old and fat.

So what will the next man get? The same? Will he get a chance to bin players like McMahon and Williams and bring in better, younger, fitter players from this level?

I hope that Clough comes in and builds us back up again, but he MUST be given time to build, almost regardless of results. Sad sad times
 
alcoblade said:
I'd normally agree, but not in this case. We were better off without Weir, even if we'd put a Monkey in charge. And I mean that, seriously things were that bad and going backwards.

Bang average management and a kick up the arse will see a quick improvement. So we've still gained.

In terms of the speed of the sacking, it's a quick one. But he's had an entire pre season, quite a bit of financial backing, 10 league games that left us bottom of division 3, and 3 cup games against even lower division opposition, none of which we could beat over 90 minutes.

In this case, there was excessive information available already to tell us he was incompetent, and 20,000 people availiable who could do a better job from day 1.

Adrian Heath was nearer to Alex Ferguson than he was to David Weir.

UTB
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And all this is great if things improve...Wilson had a bad second season, but I bet with hindsight you'd pick him over weir. The point I'm making is that whilst the grass may seem greener, we've invested a lot in Weirs regime onły to kick it into touch. Forget the money of HRH, were still living within our means here, so we can't buy our way out.

The new man comes in for Saturday and he can't do anything, perhaps some loans but we know how they work out. Then there is another change of system...
 
SwissBlade said:
And all this is great if things improve...Wilson had a bad second season, but I bet with hindsight you'd pick him over weir. The point I'm making is that whilst the grass may seem greener, we've invested a lot in Weirs regime onły to kick it into touch. Forget the money of HRH, were still living within our means here, so we can't buy our way out.

The new man comes in for Saturday and he can't do anything, perhaps some loans but we know how they work out. Then there is another change of system...
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Agreed. Change is costly and you want to avoid it. So the emphasis should be on getting it right, not holding on to mistakes.

One problem with Weir, who most of us including me wanted, was lack of track record. It was inplausible that we would be as shite as we've become, but when that happened, we had to balance the risk of 4th division football with where we thought he'd take us. This is where track records count. If they've done it before then it's easier and more sensible to keep the faith.

It's inconcievable that managers like Evans, Johnson, Cox, Warnock, - given time, don't know how to get teams promoted. They've proved it enough times for it to not be luck. This is whyt I'm so luke warm on Clough.

I don't buy into the philosophy that you dictate an exact fixed style (Swansea), then limit your options to those managers who are both available and believe in it no matter what success they can actually demonstrate. It's too restrictive, too text book, and goes against the realities of third division football and what can be achieved.

A more open scope of buy young, upcoming, athletic, technically skillful etc - will allow the players to mould into just about any system.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Agreed. Change is costly and you want to avoid it. So the emphasis should be on getting it right, not holding on to mistakes.

One problem with Weir, who most of us including me wanted, was lack of track record. It was inplausible that we would be as shite as we've become, but when that happened, we had to balance the risk of 4th division football with where we thought he'd take us. This is where track records count. If they've done it before then it's easier and more sensible to keep the faith.

It's inconcievable that managers like Evans, Johnson, Cox, Warnock, - given time, don't know how to get teams promoted. They've proved it enough times for it to not be luck. This is whyt I'm so luke warm on Clough.

I don't buy into the philosophy that you dictate an exact fixed style (Swansea), then limit your options to those managers who are both available and believe in it no matter what success they can actually demonstrate. It's too restrictive, too text book, and goes against the realities of third division football and what can be achieved.

A more open scope of buy young, upcoming, athletic, technically skillful etc - will allow the players to mould into just about any system.

UTB
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I'm not disagreeing about experience but I'm sure Weir put his plans across and hoped to get the time to implement them. Ok enough on Weir, were awaiting a new man...

Clough has some experience and Derby will have been interesting for him. He's been involved in Derbies and stabilised Derby if never actually being a challenger at the top end. Not sure he's had to dig a team out of the shite but he's had to build confidence in a side lacking it and translate it into results.

Is he the right man? I'd personally prefer a Warnock type, a motivator, but Clough has worked hard at derby and stabilised, which is what I've banged on about a lot recently. So I suppose he ticks that box :)

Is that enough? Well he worked at the arse end of football previously with burton so that might help.

He must be given time to make things work and stabilise!
 
SwissBlade said:
I'm not disagreeing about experience but I'm sure Weir put his plans across and hoped to get the time to implement them. Ok enough on Weir, were awaiting a new man...

Clough has some experience and Derby will have been interesting for him. He's been involved in Derbies and stabilised Derby if never actually being a challenger at the top end. Not sure he's had to dig a team out of the shite but he's had to build confidence in a side lacking it and translate it into results.

Is he the right man? I'd personally prefer a Warnock type, a motivator, but Clough has worked hard at derby and stabilised, which is what I've banged on about a lot recently. So I suppose he ticks that box :)

Is that enough? Well he worked at the arse end of football previously with burton so that might help.

He must be given time to make things work and stabilise!
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From what I have read and heard I don't think you should underestimate his bottle. Whether he is as stubborn as Warnock remains to be seen
 
sheffielder said:
Where was Warnock managing when he was 47?
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Couldn't say mate, Scarborough I'd guess. But I'm not aware there's factual correlation between a manager's age and success - but the success to the number of years doing it is clearly relevant. 1 promotion from division 6 in 15 times of asking means we've got almost as many questions to ask as we had about Weir. A poor 10 games and the same questions will start, and they will be relevant.

Fact is, given who we're linked with then this is probably as good as it gets. Once appointed, I'm behind him - but on both an excitement and expectation scale, we've hit the floor with this one. And we've a clear understanding about what we can expect from "game changing".

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Couldn't say mate, Scarborough I'd guess. But I'm not aware there's factual correlation between a manager's age and success - but the success to the number of years doing it is clearly relevant. 1 promotion from division 6 in 15 times of asking means we've got almost as many questions to ask as we had about Weir. A poor 10 games and the same questions will start, and they will be relevant.

Fact is, given who we're linked with then this is probably as good as it gets. Once appointed, I'm behind him - but on both an excitement and expectation scale, we've hit the floor with this one. And we've a clear understanding about what we can expect from "game changing".

UTB
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No we haven't. Not remotely. We'll only gain a clear understanding over the next 12 months or so.
 
Pinchy said:
No we haven't. Not remotely. We'll only gain a clear understanding over the next 12 months or so.
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Yes, the same as if they appointed me, you, or some other nobody.

UTB
 
sheffielder said:
Where was Warnock managing when he was 47?
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At 47 I think he was at Plymouth, where he took them to promotion.

Before that, he had already taken Scarborough into the football league, won 2 promotions at Notts County (one being to the top flight), and had also got a promotion at Huddersfield.
 

oldblade said:
At 47 I think he was at Plymouth, where he took them to promotion.

Before that, he had already taken Scarborough into the football league, won 2 promotions at Notts County (one being to the top flight), and had also got a promotion at Huddersfield.
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Right tosser weren't he?
 
oldblade said:
At 47 I think he was at Plymouth, where he took them to promotion.

Before that, he had already taken Scarborough into the football league, won 2 promotions at Notts County (one being to the top flight), and had also got a promotion at Huddersfield.
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Any idea what the ethos was like at Notts County when he took them into the premier league?

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Any idea what the ethos was like at Notts County when he took them into the premier league?

UTB
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Come on, I expected better than that. He took them up to the old Division 1. If NW had got to the ethos right, he would have taken them to the Premier League, even though it didn't come into existence until a year later.
 
Darren said:
Come on, I expected better than that. He took them up to the old Division 1. If NW had got to the ethos right, he would have taken them to the Premier League, even though it didn't come into existence until a year later.
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Of course that's right, they refused to invent it because he was rude to referee's.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Of course that's right, they refused to invent it because he was rude to referee's.

UTB
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Incidentally, when Bassett was 47 he had six promotions to his name despite having only managed 10 seasons. That included taking Wimbledon from the 4th to the 1st in 4 seasons and United fron 3rd to 1st in successive seasons.

Still, he was a dinosaur who had no idea how to play the right way.
 
SouthEssexBlade said:
Just a quick question. Aside from an FA Cup in 1988 has a team playing hoof ever actually won anything?
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Doubtful, because hardly any teams do (unless you ask Pinchy), because if you've got the top players, you don;t need to be reliant on percentages.

I think you knew that already....:)

UTB
 
SouthEssexBlade said:
Just a quick question. Aside from an FA Cup in 1988 has a team playing hoof ever actually won anything?
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Didn't everyone play a variation of 'hoof' at one time? A big target man, couple of nippy wingers. Ball moved out to the wings and then into the box ASAP for a knock down or headed attempt on goal. That's how I remember most teams used to attack.
 
SouthEssexBlade said:
Just a quick question. Aside from an FA Cup in 1988 has a team playing hoof ever actually won anything?
Click to expand...

For goodness sake, don't ask a pertinent question like that! The Hoofers are enjoying an impromptu self-congratulation party [Lord knows why] and you've just spoiled it!

Their simplistic thought processes are easy to predict though. Wait for it....bandage your sides to stop them splitting.....They'll claim Man United and Bayern Munich as the natural successors to Wimbledon....

Have they no shame, you ask?

Well......actually, no.
 
oldblade said:
Didn't everyone play a variation of 'hoof' at one time? A big target man, couple of nippy wingers. Ball moved out to the wings and then into the box ASAP for a knock down or headed attempt on goal. That's how I remember most teams used to attack.
Click to expand...

It's starting.......

I did warn you!
 
Pinchy said:
For goodness sake, don't ask a pertinent question like that! The Hoofers are enjoying an impromptu self-congratulation party [Lord knows why] and you've just spoiled it!

Their simplistic thought processes are easy to predict though. Wait for it....bandage your sides to stop them splitting.....They'll claim Man United and Bayern Munich as the natural successors to Wimbledon....

Have they no shame, you ask?

Well......actually, no.
Click to expand...

Straw man no 1078

UTB
 

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