It's getting worse

[dc_blade]

Yes, but it would involve doing badly in the Championship. Some people seem to have entered a different world where we are a PL team and should be matching established PL teams. The talk at the end of the promotion season on here was mostly very sensible, talking about the gulf now compared to last time, problems with the finances, grasping the chance even though we may come straight back down, debating whether we're ready for it, whether it's a good idea.
Now it's all outrage and "I'm so embarrassed" because we haven't beaten anyone yet.

Is it because of how we did last season? Maybe. But that's ridiculously unfair. Perhaps if we'd scraped 17th people wouldn't be so shocked now. As usual we're hamstrung by our finances. We've spent reasonably, not amazingly. The signings haven't paid off. It happens, it's disappointing but the reaction to it is stupid.

The players have clearly got problems, Wilder is clearly at a loss as to what to do, although a few thousand armchair manages could tell him. They actually need our support far more now than when we were doing well. I've stopped commenting on which players I think aren't good enough, because it is completely the wrong time to do so. Not that it stops anyone else.

We cannot get away from the fact that we have had a long series of pretty awful managers (and I usually defend a lot of them) combined with the simple fact that there isn't a queue of top managers waiting to jump in. We still don't have the money to buy our way out of trouble, but we have a manager who's committed to us, shown he can do it, knows the set up and the players.
Wilder is by far our best shot at escaping relegation or getting straight back up. So many fans criticise players (and managers) for having no loyalty - look at the reaction to Lundstram not signing a contract ffs - yet look at this message board now. We haven't even gone down yet. I dread to think we could go back to swapping managers every year as the team gets bought and sold to fit different system after different system. Sam Alladyce?! Good grief. Eddie Howe?! Because he did so well relegating his last team? We'll end up with Steve Bruce again.

I know they would all have got more than one point by now. I would have. No one's going to appoint me. They're crap at the moment, but we know they can be better. It's a sport and you are allowed to lose, even be crap at times. Calling for Wilder's head at this time, in the circumstances we're in, is not "just the thing to spur them on". It's petulant, destructive bollocks and I'm worried that the Prince will think it's the view of the fans.

Okay, that's a totally reasonable position. I think the counter-argument goes something like this:

I would've accepted relegation last season for sure. I would've been pretty pissed off if it had been a capitulation like the one we're seeing now, but I did think going into last season that we might struggle quite badly--something along the lines of what Norwich ended up doing.

But since then the core of our promotion squad demonstrated that they are good enough to at least compete at Premier League level. And on top of that we have spent a decent chunk of change--not a fortune by PL standards, it's true, but we have spent 20 million-ish each on one of the top scorers from the Championship the year we went up, the England U21 goalkeeper, one of the most highly rated young strikers in the country, and a young midfield playmaker who was scouted by some of the top teams in Europe. We're not the group of scrappy journeymen we made ourselves out to be when we got promotion from League One.

And yet since January we have played some pretty poor football. Before lockdown we were at least grinding out results, including (frankly, quite lucky) wins over Norwich and Palace. Since lockdown we have by and large been atrocious, both in terms of the style of play and the results we are getting. It's hard to watch. I think it's reasonable to expect better--quite a lot better. As I said up-thread, I don't think relegation this season is a firing offence. But I do worry that a really horrible slog like the one we're seeing now will create a toxic atmosphere and a sense of inertia that will be hard to turn around in the summer after relegation. Sometimes a clearing of the decks and a new face at the helm is necessary to shift momentum--for the good of the club, and irrespective of whatever loyalties we have for the guy currently in charge.

Prince A has come out and said Wilder's job is safe, so I suppose that's that for the moment. We all get behind the team however we can and hope Wilder can turn it around.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Okay, that's a totally reasonable position. I think the counter-argument goes something like this:

I would've accepted relegation last season for sure. I would've been pretty pissed off if it had been a capitulation like the one we're seeing now, but I did think going into last season that we might struggle quite badly--something along the lines of what Norwich ended up doing.

But since then the core of our promotion squad demonstrated that they are good enough to at least compete at Premier League level. And on top of that we have spent a decent chunk of change--not a fortune by PL standards, it's true, but we have spent 20 million-ish each on one of the top scorers from the Championship the year we went up, the England U21 goalkeeper, one of the most highly rated young strikers in the country, and a young midfield playmaker who was scouted by some of the top teams in Europe. We're not the group of scrappy journeymen we made ourselves out to be when we got promotion from League One.

And yet since January we have played some pretty poor football. Before lockdown we were at least grinding out results, including (frankly, quite lucky) wins over Norwich and Palace. Since lockdown we have by and large been atrocious, both in terms of the style of play and the results we are getting. It's hard to watch. I think it's reasonable to expect better--quite a lot better. As I said up-thread, I don't think relegation this season is a firing offence. But I do worry that a really horrible slog like the one we're seeing now will create a toxic atmosphere and a sense of inertia that will be hard to turn around in the summer after relegation. Sometimes a clearing of the decks and a new face at the helm is necessary to shift momentum--for the good of the club, and irrespective of whatever loyalties we have for the guy currently in charge.

Prince A has come out and said Wilder's job is safe, so I suppose that's that for the moment. We all get behind the team however we can and hope Wilder can turn it around.

With all due respect to the Prince and not wanting to suggest he's a liar or untrustworthy, we all know what these sort of statements of confidence in the manager are actually worth. He doesn't have a track record to look back on with this sort of thing either.

I don't know whether you're putting forward "a" counter argument or your counter argument, but in my opinion getting rid of the manager in the hopes of a turn-around is never a good idea. "New manager syndrome" has been debunked numerous times and we've done particularly badly at that game anyway. Robson in for Warnock - oh dear. Firing Wilson when we were on the verge of promotion. McEwan for Porterfield. Adkins for Clough - which on paper even looked a decent decision. When has it ever really worked for us? Kendall for Bassett seems almost a similar situation, but it only worked with financial backing - would we find another Kendall? I can say Warnock in for Heath now Pinchy's not around.
But it's obvious it isn't a guaranteed fix for anything. I wouldn't mind so much if there was a genuine exciting replacement waiting in the wings, I still wouldn't want it to happen, but I'd understand the calls better. As far as I can see, we have the best manager right now, "a change of face" is too vague, too much hit and hope. He has to be given the chance to fail for a while whilst getting our support with the long term expectation of success and establishment in the top tier, which was never going to happen in a season or two. It has far more chance of working than swapping the manager out whenever he goes on a bad run (even this bad).

 

[dc_blade]

With all due respect to the Prince and not wanting to suggest he's a liar or untrustworthy, we all know what these sort of statements of confidence in the manager are actually worth. He doesn't have a track record to look back on with this sort of thing either.

I don't know whether you're putting forward "a" counter argument or your counter argument, but in my opinion getting rid of the manager in the hopes of a turn-around is never a good idea. "New manager syndrome" has been debunked numerous times and we've done particularly badly at that game anyway. Robson in for Warnock - oh dear. Firing Wilson when we were on the verge of promotion. McEwan for Porterfield. Adkins for Clough - which on paper even looked a decent decision. When has it ever really worked for us? Kendall for Bassett seems almost a similar situation, but it only worked with financial backing - would we find another Kendall? I can say Warnock in for Heath now Pinchy's not around.
But it's obvious it isn't a guaranteed fix for anything. I wouldn't mind so much if there was a genuine exciting replacement waiting in the wings, I still wouldn't want it to happen, but I'd understand the calls better. As far as I can see, we have the best manager right now, "a change of face" is too vague, too much hit and hope. He has to be given the chance to fail for a while whilst getting our support with the long term expectation of success and establishment in the top tier, which was never going to happen in a season or two. It has far more chance of working than swapping the manager out whenever he goes on a bad run (even this bad).

Sometimes it's the right decision to sack a manager and sometimes it's the wrong decision. I think that's self-evident. It's a gamble. There are plenty of examples of clubs twisting when they should've stuck, and I agree that there is a culture of short-termism that we'd be sensible to avoid. But there are also examples of managers who have overstayed their welcome and plenty of examples of clubs bringing in a new face to lead them clear of danger--I can think of a handful from the last decade alone.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Sometimes it's the right decision to sack a manager and sometimes it's the wrong decision. I think that's self-evident. It's a gamble. There are plenty of examples of clubs twisting when they should've stuck, and I agree that there is a culture of short-termism that we'd be sensible to avoid. But there are also examples of managers who have overstayed their welcome and plenty of examples of clubs bringing in a new face to lead them clear of danger--I can think of a handful from the last decade alone.

Yes there's always examples to find to prove any point, really. At United we've very clearly had more success and stability by sticking with managers than changing them regularly. Oddly we've changed them even when we weren't doing that badly and unsurprisingly ended up worse for it. But for me we searched for years to find someone like Wilder and now people want to get rid and start that search again. It's short-termism if it's just to get us out of this mess.
Or it's an unrealistic belief that we are now a desirable prospect for a top manager. There aren't good managers out there wanting to come to a skin-flint struggling club with a team of lower division players - we even had managers turn us down when we were a "sleeping giant" type club. Wilder has to stay for this season, if we're relegated it's been a two year, cash-bonus adventure that no one was expecting, then let's see if we're able to smash the Championship.

 

[Rufus Smalls]

Hamburg Blade & dc blade.
Keep this discussion going, it’s the best bit of debate and reasoned argument I’ve read on here in a long time.

 

[DaleHillBlade]

Wilder is clearly at a loss as to what to do,

Great stuff

 

[dc_blade]

Hamburg Blade & dc blade.
Keep this discussion going, it’s the best bit of debate and reasoned argument I’ve read on here in a long time.

Thanks, RS. I think it may have run it’s course now. Hamburg Blade has made a pretty strong case for sticking by Wilder and for the moment at least I think he’s right. I hope I’ve managed to show that it’s possible to make a case for the other side without being “entitled” or a worse supporter.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Hamburg Blade & dc blade.
Keep this discussion going, it’s the best bit of debate and reasoned argument I’ve read on here in a long time.

Thanks for that, though I concede I started off a bit prickly, some of it has got me a bit riled up.
I like a good feisty debate though and thank dc_blade for making it one.

 

[A Storm of Blades]

Yes there's always examples to find to prove any point, really. At United we've very clearly had more success and stability by sticking with managers than changing them regularly. Oddly we've changed them even when we weren't doing that badly and unsurprisingly ended up worse for it. But for me we searched for years to find someone like Wilder and now people want to get rid and start that search again. It's short-termism if it's just to get us out of this mess.
Or it's an unrealistic belief that we are now a desirable prospect for a top manager. There aren't good managers out there wanting to come to a skin-flint struggling club with a team of lower division players - we even had managers turn us down when we were a "sleeping giant" type club. Wilder has to stay for this season, if we're relegated it's been a two year, cash-bonus adventure that no one was expecting, then let's see if we're able to smash the Championship.

To add complexity to a tough situation, I both want rid of Wilder and Wilder to stay. Much like seminal classic Superman 3, I want an unshaven hoofball evil Wilder to be fought and defeated by clean-shaven innovative hero Wilder. Possibly in a junk yard.

 

[Rufus Smalls]

Thanks for that, though I concede I started off a bit prickly, some of it has got me a bit riled up.
I like a good feisty debate though and thank dc_blade for making it one.

Feisty debate is exactly what a football forum SHOULD be used for.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Thanks, RS. I think it may have run it’s course now. Hamburg Blade has made a pretty strong case for sticking by Wilder and for the moment at least I think he’s right. I hope I’ve managed to show that it’s possible to make a case for the other side without being “entitled” or a worse supporter.

Hmmm, but you're not actually calling for his head, which is who that was aimed at. You've said you'd be happy (ok, relatively speaking) to go down as long as we went fighting. So you've argued the point on behalf of others - the problem with that is I don't think the others you're arguing on behalf of are being anything like as reasonable as you are being with your point of view. A bit convoluted, I know.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Feisty debate is exactly what a football forum SHOULD be used for.

Not memes?

 

[Hamburg Blade]

To add complexity to a tough situation, I both want rid of Wilder and Wilder to stay. Much like seminal classic Superman 3, I want an unshaven hoofball evil Wilder to be fought and defeated by clean-shaven innovative hero Wilder. Possibly in a junk yard.

Yes, I get that, it's all part of the same problem. It's as if aliens have abducted our entire team and manager for a league on Alpha Centuri and replaced them with cheap clones made in China.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Out of interest dc_blade, what are your opinions on the sackings of Clough, Wilson - even Blackwell? Just briefly.

 

[Sirius]

Chris doesnt need to step down, the players need to take a hard look at themselves and ask what kind of garbage performances' have they been putting in.

Not even the greatest manager on the planet would get anything from this team, no confidence, no bottle, no fight, no grit, nothing.

We can change the formation all we want, we wont get anything out of them. If the players dont want to be here they should leave in January like Lunny. I want players who want to fight and give it all for our teams shirt.

Angry post game reaction over.

It’s hard to understand why impressive players from last season are now underperforming so badly
The loss of Jack is unfortunate He was part of a very good defence
Surely losing him should not cause others to implode
Every footballer looks after his own interest
To play at a high level. The collective
Performance against the Saints was a disgrace. For some reason standards have dtpppef
Football has changed to such an extent
It is populated by cheating players and officials who leave a lot to be desired
How stupid that someone, miles away from the ground is able tp
Influence a result

At least let’s hope for a the return of an unbiased team of officials. We can then put var and the hangers on where the Sun don’t shine

 

[dc_blade]

Out of interest dc_blade, what are your opinions on the sackings of Clough, Wilson - even Blackwell? Just briefly.

I was happy to see the back of Blackwell because I didn't like the style of football. I thought Speed was an exciting appointment.

I thought at the time that both Wilson and Clough had been slightly hard done by. There's a big caveat, though--it was harder to follow the Blades from overseas back then and I didn't feel as qualified to have a strong opinion. During the end of Wilson's tenure I was also going through a divorce and football wasn't the main thing on my mind!

 

[Hamburg Blade]

I was happy to see the back of Blackwell because I didn't like the style of football. I thought Speed was an exciting appointment.

I thought at the time that both Wilson and Clough had been slightly hard done by. There's a big caveat, though--it was harder to follow the Blades from overseas back then and I didn't feel as qualified to have a strong opinion. During the end of Wilson's tenure I was also going through a divorce and football wasn't the main thing on my mind!

Yes that's true, it was. I thought all of them were fired at the wrong time. Blackwell's football wasn't great, though, so it's easier to be ok with it.

 

[cc1]

"He's got to go". Fuck me.
Some fans deserve Robson, Adkins, Weir, et al.
What the fuck did people expect when we got promoted to the PL? This is what most people thought would happen last year - it's happening now and all this talk of supporting the club through thick and thin has gone out the window. The number of fans who only want to support the club when we're winning is shocking. It's where the term "self entitlement" comes from. Do people even know what support is?
"So we can't criticise the team" is the usual non sequitur. No, that's not what anyone's saying, learn what support is, understand the realities of the situation. This is the fight that we should have had but was kicked down the road. Mistakes have compounded the problem, we've now got a mountain to climb. So let's fire the one manager we've had in over a decade who has actually delivered for us?
I'll say it again.
Fuck me.

Take a bow, sir.

 

[guancheblade]

That's the worst performance this season. The worst performance since I can remember. We are falling apart. It can't go on. I don't think CW will want it to go on. His pride won't allow that. Players look completely shot.

I remember a pretty dire 0-0 against Rovrum under Colin that has yet to be surpassed

 

[blade too long]

you dont know what bad days are unless you saw us lose 4-0 at newport
or had the joy of watching a cup replay at Altrincham when we got away with a 3-0 beating when 6 or 7 was nearer the mark
or losing on a foggy night in aldershot 1-0 , mind you only saw the odd player now and again
Only knew theyd scored because could just make out we were kicking off again

 

[blade too long]

the year we went back down to div 3 had some horrendous displays way worse than this run

1987-88 season​

Date	Match	Result	Score	Competition
20 Oct 1987	Sheffield United v Birmingham City	L	0-2	League Division Two
24 Oct 1987	Ipswich Town v Sheffield United	L	1-0	League Division Two
31 Oct 1987	Sheffield United v Leeds United	D	2-2	League Division Two
04 Nov 1987	West Bromwich Albion v Sheffield United	L	4-0	League Division Two
07 Nov 1987	Sheffield United v Middlesbrough	L	0-2	League Division Two
14 Nov 1987	Bradford City v Sheffield United	L	2-0	League Division Two
17 Nov 1987	Shrewsbury Town v Sheffield United	L	2-0	League Division Two
21 Nov 1987	Sheffield United v Reading	W	4-1	League Division Two
05 Dec 1987	Sheffield United v Huddersfield Town	D	2-2	League Division Two
13 Dec 1987	Crystal Palace v Sheffield United	L	2-1	League Division Two
20 Dec 1987	Sheffield United v Swindon Town	W	1-0	League Division Two
26 Dec 1987	Sheffield United v Aston Villa	D	1-1	League Division Two
28 Dec 1987	Millwall v Sheffield United	L	3-1	League Division Two
01 Jan 1988	Blackburn Rovers v Sheffield United	L	4-1	League Division Two
02 Jan 1988	Sheffield United v Oldham Athletic	L	0-5	League Division Two
16 Jan 1988	AFC Bournemouth v Sheffield United	W	1-2	League Division Two
06 Feb 1988	Stoke City v Sheffield United	L	1-0	League Division Two
13 Feb 1988	Sheffield United v Shrewsbury Town	L	0-1	League Division Two
20 Feb 1988	Sheffield United v Barnsley	W	1-0	League Division Two
27 Feb 1988	Hull City v Sheffield United	W	1-2	League Division Two
05 Mar 1988	Leicester City v Sheffield United	L	1-0	League Division Two
08 Mar 1988	Sheffield United v Manchester City	L	1-2	League Division Two
19 Mar 1988	Leeds United v Sheffield United	L	5-0	League Division Two
26 Mar 1988	Sheffield United v Ipswich Town	W	4-1	League Division Two
02 Apr 1988	Middlesbrough v Sheffield United	L	6-0	League Division Two
04 Apr 1988	Sheffield United v Bradford City	L	1-2	League Division Two
09 Apr 1988	Birmingham City v Sheffield United	L	1-0	League Division Two

gates were shite too

Score	1-0 to Shrewsbury Town
Competition	League Division Two
Attendance	8,227

 

[Camden Blade]

you dont know what bad days are unless you saw us lose 4-0 at newport
or had the joy of watching a cup replay at Altrincham when we got away with a 3-0 beating when 6 or 7 was nearer the mark
or losing on a foggy night in aldershot 1-0 , mind you only saw the odd player now and again
Only knew theyd scored because could just make out we were kicking off again

I know I remember that season. I should said worse display in recent times or under Wilder. But those games you mention shouldn't be a yardstick or excuse present performances.

 

[blade too long]

I know I remember that season. I should said worse display in recent times or under Wilder. But those games you mention shouldn't be a yardstick or excuse present performances.

more present results than perfrmances
weve deserved more in several games
losing 4-0 at newport hardly compares to losing 2-1 at anfield

 

[Camden Blade]

more present results than perfrmances
weve deserved more in several games
losing 4-0 at newport hardly compares to losing 2-1 at anfield

Performances have been awful as well as results. Let's at least be honest. We've got what we deserved.

 

[blade too long]

Performances have been awful as well as results. Let's at least be honest. We've got what we deserved.

so your saying all 16 have been shit ,,,,really
no sorry not having that

your saying all 10 single goal losses were deserved thats bollocks