If you buy enough 3rd division players, that's where you end up

[Ricky]

Ideally we will sign a couple of proven players who'll strengthen the first 11.

But if the value isn't there, I'd rather us sign more unproven players instead. I'm relaxed about it. We won't get relegated either way.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

Agree. Wilder has shown he can generate great team spirit. That is still really important but now we are competing with clubs spending millions we do need better quality. It does feel like our Board are hoping we do well on the cheap rather than showing any meaningful ambition. Disappointing when ST sales show that once again us fans are doing our bit. Personally I still think our best hope is the Chinese investment coming to something but I've not heard anything on that for a long time.

 

[Champagneblade]

Also makes me wonder at this level, whether the club has to invest a little more and be more creative in the scouting department.

As has been alluded there are certainly diamonds in the rough and targeting those who have won POTY at their club in recent times shows they are towards the top end of that level and we hope ready to step up from Leagues One and Two.

When you look at the top two divisions, knowledge of players is so much more visible now that it was in previous years. Even the likes of Solanke are well know names yet have seldom featured for their clubs. Getting someone who is brilliant but ill-judged by their manager seems harder these days because there are so many opinions available on players who even play infrequently. Steeling a march on a team because you've seen something they haven't seems to occur less often. I remember when we signed Littlejohn. Gone are the days when you walk out at 2.45pm and ask who that is warming up. So little is kept under wraps.

At some point, I think Wilder and Knill may need to look beyond these shores. And judging by his signing record this is not so much of a familiar territory. There is going to be a saturation point where in Leagues One and Two the swamp has been dredged and so has Scottish football. In signing Haynes, retaining the likes of Allan and Christie, Celtic are stockpiling what there is worth having up there. You've the lad at St Mirren, but can you expect more than what Thomas would give for instance?

Maybe in a sense we were ahead of our time with the Ferencvaros thing, but now Europe has opened up a little, even though we are about to close it somehow(!), perhaps taking a looks at some of the better players from the European leagues with less TV coverage. The likes of Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Greece, Cyprus, Scandinavia etc. I'm not suggesting all, and there is added risk of language and culture but there is perhaps a bigger chance if you see a gem, some of the rivals at our level are less aware. Just a thought, but I do see limits to just UK players and believe Wilder sooner or later needs to turn another tap on to keep the supply of players fresh.

Again, not a criticism, just a direction I think he and Knill will need to look at to continue evolving.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

All Wilder needs to do is sprinkle the team with his magic stardust and we will go forward and upward.

 

['Doc' Pace my hero]

The clever bit is signing the players that are too good for the 3rd division !!

 

[Maidenhead]

- Potential Defensive frailties - We conceded more goals that those around us. Does that mean against better sides we will struggle defensively?

Good post SwissBlade

Could I be so bold as to suggest that we conceded more goals than those around us because we set out to win more games, rather than not lose them, than those around us?

It will be interesting to see how we approach games against the supposedly "better" teams than ourselves next season.

I have to say that I'm looking forward with optimism although there are some that would say that I'm always optimistic, far too much so to be a proper Blade

 

[Booker4]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

It might be years ago but I don't remember Deane, Booker, Roberts, Bryson, David Barnes and Colin Hill doing too badly for us back in 1988-90. We did sprinkle the above with a few signings from the top flight but none of them were regulars. Bradshaw, Gannon and Agana were the three . There was only Mark Morris and Paul Wood who cost significant money, who arrived from the now Championship. I think its about buying the right quality and I'm not concerned where they come from.

 

[Maidenhead]

Think the OP makes a legitimate point - and well done for sticking your face into the fire by making it- but even without signing anyone last year's team is nowhere near a relegation one.

If CW is looking to sign known players to enhance what he's got then short term that'll do for me.

Medium and longer term once the novelty / momentum wears off? I'd hope he steps out of his comfort zone and starts looking at better players ( this assumes a commensurate budget is made available) but let's do step 1 first.

Spot on.

If you don't build on firm foundations then your building will eventually topple over.

Lots of examples of this at all levels of the game.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I wouldn't worry about the Docherty quote. If it is genuine (I think it is, but didn't find it in a quick google search), it will have been either to put pressure on a chairman for money, or excusing one of his periods of failure. He could be funny, but he was not a great manager.

 

[steve26272]

Indeed. That'd get you less than half of Jordan Rhodes.

Which is actually about as useful as having the full man.

is that the half that doesn't start their biggest game of the season,or the half that won't take a penalty?

 

[Champagneblade]

It might be years ago but I don't remember Deane, Booker, Roberts, Bryson, David Barnes and Colin Hill doing too badly for us back in 1988-90. We did sprinkle the above with a few signings from the top flight but none of them were regulars. Bradshaw, Gannon and Agana were the three . There was only Mark Morris and Paul Wood who cost significant money, who arrived from the now Championship. I think its about buying the right quality and I'm not concerned where they come from.

Agree, but with exceptions most teams could compete. There was probably not a huge wage differential between the top three divisions. If you were a top player in the third tier, you might earn more than a middling player in the second tier.

Now the disparity is huge. There are players in the second tier who earn more than the entire playing budget of clubs in the third. It therefore lends itself more to natural selection and players hurrying up to find their level as opposed to remaining and learning their trade.

Just my view of course, but the money in the game has created such disparities that didn't exist at the time of Deane, Agana, Bradshaw etc. You take a PL reserve and they are probably on 15k-25k per week, when we've been paying probably close to 5k per week. It's a huge step.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Worthy O.P. but I'd say at this stage it's all about budgets, style of play, balancing the squad and having realisitic targets for an assault on the Premier League.

In the past we have wasted so much money on experienced players from the Prem and the Championship. Yes McCall was a jewel but he had the right cahracter and personality that drove him to keep on achieving; plenty did not.

There are various forces at play, all creating pressure on the manager - Pathway for Youth, development of Youth, Fan expectation, crowd patience levels, player motivation when not playing in the first team, ,budgets, the Board expectation.

I am happy to see us strengthening the depths in our squad with quality players still hungry to achieve because they have not had the breaks to get the chance to perform in the Championship. It exactly its the bill for me. Add a couple of quality young loanee defenders and we are already there if we capture Leonard or Holmes or both.

It's the Pathway for Youth that bothers me and there are no easy answers. I honestly think Whiteman would earn his place in the first team if he were to stay with us this season. Reed has to go out on loan and will come back Player of the Season at a club in League 2, just like Whiteman did at Mansfield in half a season. A loan away seems spot on for Brooks at this stage.

If he had stayed Calvert-Lewin might not have played for us last season and maybe he would not have been on the bench more than a handful of times either; no other youngsters were.

This is a massive dilema. We need to show young lads that we are serious about the Pathway but we feel under so much pressure results-wise that there is no room for it yet. Suppose if we are mid-table with nowhere to go then the youngsters will get a chance but is that enough? We should always have two youngsters on the bench IMO, even if it's just for the experience but let's beright - these kids can play and would let nobody down if they played the last half hour regularly.

The Pathway for Youth was in Wilder's brief when he was appointed but I'm not sure anybody at the club knows exactly what such a 'Pathway' entails.

Alan Biggs recently asked if the time had come for either or both Sheffield clubs start keeping their talented youngsters. Good question. Can we keep Brooks? Whiteman and Reed are quality too. We need to show great faith in them and a commitment to develop them at the right pace. Reed wasted last year and Whiteman wasted half a year. Calvert-Lewin gained great experience in the Premier League first team on the bench and in big games, experience he wouldn't have gained in League 1 with us perhaps; I know it is a 'perhaps' but there is reasonable doubt let's say.

 

[I should coco]

In the past we have wasted so much money on experienced players from the Prem and the Championship.

That ought to be on a plate above the tunnel as the teams come out.

Our version of 'This is Anfield', well......sort of.

 

[Maidenhead]

Agree, but with exceptions most teams could compete. There was probably not a huge wage differential between the top three divisions. If you were a top player in the third tier, you might earn more than a middling player in the second tier.

Now the disparity is huge. There are players in the second tier who earn more than the entire playing budget of clubs in the third. It therefore lends itself more to natural selection and players hurrying up to find their level as opposed to remaining and learning their trade.

Just my view of course, but the money in the game has created such disparities that didn't exist at the time of Deane, Agana, Bradshaw etc. You take a PL reserve and they are probably on 15k-25k per week, when we've been paying probably close to 5k per week. It's a huge step.

Just because they're paid more money it doesn't necessarily mean they're better players though.

We've hardly been a shining example of financial prudence for a long time prior to last season and that approach got us nowhere.

There's a lot to be said for equality which leads to harmony and togetherness in the dressing room, something that money can't buy.

I remember Kevin Sinfield saying after a Rhinos grand final win that "every member of this squad could go elsewhere and earn more money but we enjoy playing together and winning things".

Whilst there has to be flexibility within a wage structure there most definitely has to be a structure, and players need to know where they are and where they fit within that structure.

I loved Wilder's comment when he said "we're not going to have one player up here and another down there" (with appropriate hand movements), the idea is to move the whole structure incrementally upwards.

On such firm foundations is long term success built.

 

[GrayBlade]

I think its a reasonable question Bos, he aint havin a go at Wilder and he trusts Wilder like we all do but it is a thought not a criticism, I would like to see a couple of signings that excite me from a higher division however if we dont I like everyone else will not worry because its wlder and Knill.

Totally agree with that although I would also add that that I personally can get more excited about us signing a lower league player with (hopefully) the ability to kick on, but get pretty apathetic about the prospect of signing some tried and trusted players from the higher divisions.

I think the likes of Hammond, Woolford and Sammon finally did it for me.

 

[BushBlade]

Also makes me wonder at this level, whether the club has to invest a little more and be more creative in the scouting department.

As has been alluded there are certainly diamonds in the rough and targeting those who have won POTY at their club in recent times shows they are towards the top end of that level and we hope ready to step up from Leagues One and Two.

When you look at the top two divisions, knowledge of players is so much more visible now that it was in previous years. Even the likes of Solanke are well know names yet have seldom featured for their clubs. Getting someone who is brilliant but ill-judged by their manager seems harder these days because there are so many opinions available on players who even play infrequently. Steeling a march on a team because you've seen something they haven't seems to occur less often. I remember when we signed Littlejohn. Gone are the days when you walk out at 2.45pm and ask who that is warming up. So little is kept under wraps.

At some point, I think Wilder and Knill may need to look beyond these shores. And judging by his signing record this is not so much of a familiar territory. There is going to be a saturation point where in Leagues One and Two the swamp has been dredged and so has Scottish football. In signing Haynes, retaining the likes of Allan and Christie, Celtic are stockpiling what there is worth having up there. You've the lad at St Mirren, but can you expect more than what Thomas would give for instance?

Maybe in a sense we were ahead of our time with the Ferencvaros thing, but now Europe has opened up a little, even though we are about to close it somehow(!), perhaps taking a looks at some of the better players from the European leagues with less TV coverage. The likes of Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Greece, Cyprus, Scandinavia etc. I'm not suggesting all, and there is added risk of language and culture but there is perhaps a bigger chance if you see a gem, some of the rivals at our level are less aware. Just a thought, but I do see limits to just UK players and believe Wilder sooner or later needs to turn another tap on to keep the supply of players fresh.

Again, not a criticism, just a direction I think he and Knill will need to look at to continue evolving.

Championship clubs are already scouting Europe. Look at Huddersfield. That's why Norwich have gone for a German manager, for his knowledge of European markets.

 

[JJBlade]

A lot of the Premier League players of the future will start their careers in the lower leagues

It's just a case of picking the best ones

AND THEN PAYING THE RELATIVELY MINISCULE AMOUNTS THAT THEIR CLUBS WANT FOR THEM

 

[Barney]

I suspect he will have a few players with championship experience lined up.

 

[Champagneblade]

Just because they're paid more money it doesn't necessarily mean they're better players though.

We've hardly been a shining example of financial prudence for a long time prior to last season and that approach got us nowhere.

There's a lot to be said for equality which leads to harmony and togetherness in the dressing room, something that money can't buy.

I remember Kevin Sinfield saying after a Rhinos grand final win that "every member of this squad could go elsewhere and earn more money but we enjoy playing together and winning things".

Whilst there has to be flexibility within a wage structure there most definitely has to be a structure, and players need to know where they are and where they fit within that structure.

I loved Wilder's comment when he said "we're not going to have one player up here and another down there" (with appropriate hand movements), the idea is to move the whole structure incrementally upwards.

On such firm foundations is long term success built.

I totally agree with your first statement in particular though as a general rule you would say higher wages attract better players and better players command higher wages. Key being to not pay high wages to those undeserving. Unfortunately my point was that even someone with limited appearances for a top level club is being paid extortionate figures that it creates almost a glass floor for them to be recruited lower down.

Wilder would make a great Communist with his latter comments and I think it is a great idea, his thoughts on equality, not Communism! It would get harder to maintain the higher up he and hopefully we go.

E.g. You find yourself with 200k remaining in your wage budget and Cristiano Ronaldo wants to join you. Would you decide not to take him despite being World Class because you don't want to have Billy Sharp feel undervalued? A case exaggerated beyond belief, but on a smaller scale, we are on the cusp of some very challenging financial decisions as we look to upgrade the team.

Unless we become the club that primarily recruits the best of the league below or bargains who are not yet earning too much to be unaffordable from the top flight and hope the spirit and key recruitment are enough. You could argue Barnsley have done this to great effect in recent years and the lad from Southampton (Mr 1-0) is a good example. You could also put a case forward that Peterboro do this very well in giving non-League players a window to shine and then to boot they are also prudent sellers. Add this to our gates and you have a winning formula. But everyone would like to buy low, sell high and still have an improving team.

The challenge is getting the balance of all three right.

 

[Houston_Blade]

It remains to be seen if we're assembling a decent Championship squad, however I'd rather have a united dressing room free of the supposedly required egos than sign 1 prick who turns up to training in a Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren etc, eats 25% of the wage budget and causes disunity in the squad.

 

[Boxer Blade]

Totally agree with that although I would also add that that I personally can get more excited about us signing a lower league player with (hopefully) the ability to kick on, but get pretty apathetic about the prospect of signing some tried and trusted players from the higher divisions.

I think the likes of Hammond, Woolford and Sammon finally did it for me.

I understand what you are saying gray, Hammond,woolford and Sammon fill you with dread but to be fair for every one of those three there are successes, Wilder would never have brought those three to the club but dosnt mean you still dont shop there, interesting and exciting times ahead though

 

[Davie Blade]

On the other hand, of the regular team last season, half have played at Championship level. Seems to me that we're following the Bournemouth blueprint although I do agree that we need at least one experienced head in defence, Jags of course

Who my Everton friends tell me he is on £80k a week.

 

[SwissBlade]

Good post SwissBlade

Could I be so bold as to suggest that we conceded more goals than those around us because we set out to win more games, rather than not lose them, than those around us?

It will be interesting to see how we approach games against the supposedly "better" teams than ourselves next season.

I have to say that I'm looking forward with optimism although there are some that would say that I'm always optimistic, far too much so to be a proper Blade

Yeah i think you're probably right. The way we set up (Back 3 and two wing backs) lends itself to being more attacking, but it comes with some downsides.

I hope that we set up the same in the Championship as it certainly benefits the likes of freeman and lafferty, as well as allowing Coutts and Fleck time on the ball, with lots more space.

Another possible cause of the goals conceded was the side settling in and getting to know each other, as well as perhaps being more cautious earlier in the season, hence the end of the season scoring more freely (or at least it seemed that way).

If you look to the MK Dons and Bradford games at the end of the season, this is as controlled and dominant as we could expect any game to be... which leads me to start another thread...

 

[JayGreen17]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

Yes there is and in my view we need tried and tested defenders at this level, it's going to be the difference between lower reaches of this division to mid to top 6 for me. Central defence is a problem currently in my view, even last year at times we looked vulnerable.

 

[Yoonited]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

It's a pretty sweeping statement though by Docherty.Not all third division players spend their career in it because of the extra talent they have and are subsequently rewarded by astute managers in higher divisions purchasing them.
Harry Maguire was a third Division player who is now a Prem player. I think the valid question you ask "but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above"? is probably best answered by Chris n Alan while we are left to speculate. I think they might have had it nailed since last season.

I see us as an incomplete Jigsaw whose pieces are being carefully selected with time and patience. I'd also rate Chris to become more successful than Docherty whose career arguably went downhill after Man-Ure and he only won a Cup or two there ???

I had the unexpected pleasure of bumping into Chris earlier this week on Division St and the energy and positivity , not to mention mischief he exudes is palpable.We have an absolute diamond and I know I am slightly off topic now but I trust him implicitly to get most signings spot on. I also think Ched will surprise many. Simply cannot wait.

Cannot for the life of me imagine it feels so exciting in South Barnsley. Trepidation is my bet.
UTB

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Who my Everton friends tell me he is on £80k a week.

In which case he should have earnt enough in the last 10 years to not be requiring a massive contract at his beloved Blades

 

[I should coco]

Trepidation is my bet.

Delusional is mine.

Biggest club in Yorkshire, no the North of England, no the Solar System.

All the other big clubs (but not as big as Wendy), want them back in the Premier. They have the best fans, make up all their own songs and we just want to be like them.

 

[McGrath]

Why are we assuming the transfer policy is just to sign lower league players?

The seasons start is still 2 months away and the Transfer Window does not close for 2 and a half so why don't we just wait and see what happens before we start worrying!

 

[Woodwardfan]

Just because they're paid more money it doesn't necessarily mean they're better players though.

We've hardly been a shining example of financial prudence for a long time prior to last season and that approach got us nowhere.

There's a lot to be said for equality which leads to harmony and togetherness in the dressing room, something that money can't buy.

I remember Kevin Sinfield saying after a Rhinos grand final win that "every member of this squad could go elsewhere and earn more money but we enjoy playing together and winning things".

Whilst there has to be flexibility within a wage structure there most definitely has to be a structure, and players need to know where they are and where they fit within that structure.

I loved Wilder's comment when he said "we're not going to have one player up here and another down there" (with appropriate hand movements), the idea is to move the whole structure incrementally upwards.

On such firm foundations is long term success built.

Well said

Reward success, not just being here and not trying or not playing.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Dean Hammond?