If you buy enough 3rd division players, that's where you end up

[Champagneblade]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

On the other hand, of the regular team last season, half have played at Championship level. Seems to me that we're following the Bournemouth blueprint although I do agree that we need at least one experienced head in defence, Jags of course

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

Coaching from the couch . Blades Galactico . Eh Wilder not doing it right then. No pause or reflection , Wilder knows the players , tactics for success in his First Visit to the Championship in management .

 

[raul]

Think the OP makes a legitimate point - and well done for sticking your face into the fire by making it- but even without signing anyone last year's team is nowhere near a relegation one.

If CW is looking to sign known players to enhance what he's got then short term that'll do for me.

Medium and longer term once the novelty / momentum wears off? I'd hope he steps out of his comfort zone and starts looking at better players ( this assumes a commensurate budget is made available) but let's do step 1 first.

 

[McGrath]

Every other transfer market blueprint has failed.

 

[Boxer Blade]

Coaching from the couch . Blades Galactico . Eh Wilder not doing it right then. No pause or reflection , Wilder knows the players , tactics for success in his First Visit to the Championship in management .

I think its a reasonable question Bos, he aint havin a go at Wilder and he trusts Wilder like we all do but it is a thought not a criticism, I would like to see a couple of signings that excite me from a higher division however if we dont I like everyone else will not worry because its wlder and Knill.

 

[mancunianblade]

Depends on how you define division 3 I suppose..

I mean contractually Fleck has been a division 3 player for 3 years is that what he is though? I'd take a league one/two player of the year at a good age on reasonable wages everyday of the week over a 30 something PL/Championship squad player who has been around the block and isn't really bothered anymore, in fact spends most of his time trying to build a "brand" that usually includes his number that no one cares about.

These types of players are looking for contracts to set themselves up for retirement the players we are signing may see is as only a stepping stone, I'm fine with this in order for us to be a stepping stone these players have to exceed expectation our perform all other targets and move on for a strong fee.

 

[finlaytheblade]

I think its a reasonable question Bos, he aint havin a go at Wilder and he trusts Wilder like we all do but it is a thought not a criticism, I would like to see a couple of signings that excite me from a higher division however if we dont I like everyone else will not worry because its wlder and Knill.

Feel sure we will sign at least one from Prem or championship he will have targets but getting the bulk of signings early stops us maybe having to pay inflated fees.
Dipping our toes in the top division means all clubs will expect more including the Southends ,we are getting value for money at present but clubs play hard ball when you start splashing the cash

 

[Tezza1889]

Fantastic op..

Planting the feet back on the ground for everybody, the signings are for me spot on, we are looking to consolidate in the championship, yes we might need a McCall type (etc) to calm the nerves when it gets tough, but we need to focus on stopping up as the first target, that will be a successful season, anything else is a bonus... and should be viewed as precisely that...

 

[Blade58]

The players Wilder is bringing in are capable of playing at a higher level in his opinion and as he always maintains, it's about value for money. He won't get every signing right, but my money is on the majority making the step up.

Any fker can do it the Carlost way, which in effect highlights the managers inability. Buy, buy, buy the most expensive players and that guarantees the club promotion........................wrong!

 

[JohnDenver]

I expect we'll sign a player or two from a higher bracket before we're done. But these are the tough signings where the risks are greater. It was a long time ago now that £5m bought us Darius Henderson and Ched Evans who were a big part of our relegation disaster. £5m these days has much less purchase power...

 

[fireblade]

Not many players begin their careers in the Prem League, they break through in the lower leagues, and those who do well get noticed and earn a move. Wilder, backed up by his scouting network have identified the better prospects (that meet our requirements) and are busy bringing them to the Lane. This will provide the solid foundations on which to build.
Still think there is more to come, including loans from the Prem, but at the moment satisfied with how things are moving.
Docherty, although entertaining, never really achieved expectations at Man U.
Shankly on the other hand did, and he wasn't afraid to buy from lower league.

 

[TJB.]

£5m these days has much less purchase power...

Indeed. That'd get you less than half of Jordan Rhodes.

Which is actually about as useful as having the full man.

 

[Revolution]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

Like raul I am glad you said this, because I have been thinking along the same lines.

I am torn between two ideas: the idea that the signings to date are a little underwhelming, and the idea that Wilder proved me wrong last season and did a fantastic job, and he can be trusted to get this right.

I also agree with raul that to a certain extent it isn't that big an issue because we are likely to finish mid table at worst in my view (Revolution jr takes a different view and says that the Championship is harder than the end of season fare we watched would suggest), but then again would better players push us towards the top 6?

I have one question for those who have been watching our dealings closer than I have: how many of our signings to date will be in the first XI on the first day of the season? I genuinely have no idea (save that Baldock is a decent player from memory) and would welcome the views of others. If the answer is one or none, we have more to do.

 

[Harrisblade]

But also remember - "you don't win anything with kids"
Big name pronouncements don't necessarily mean anything at all!

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Wilder knows best. There is no right way to recruit. Dozens of teams sign players from their level every year and either get nowhere or get relegated. As well, we can't judge players from below the Championship until they have had a chance to prove themselves. I would rather create a name than sign one. Most of the current seasoned Championship players will have been unkown to the football world at one time.

The squad we already had at the end of last season stands a fighting chance so it doesn't concern me.

 

[tomtheblade]

It depends on who you're buying. Players approaching or in their 30s who have been in the lower divisions their entire careers, who have never been prominent for any club, I think we can reasonably say are '3rd division players'. It's a fair assessment.

Players who are young, say 25 and under, have been prominent for their clubs - player of the year, very highly regarded or captains, we can say have the characteristics of talent that can play to a higher level. Seems to me that Wilder is picking from the second camp, rather than the first.

Looking at our managers background in the game, he has been working on shoestring budgets for years at small clubs with tiny budgets. His mind will naturally be focused on squeezing the very best value for money in every possible situation, and out of every player and potential deal. My guess is that he, like many fans, thinks that the fees and wages flying around in the upper Champ/Prem are disproportionate to the actual talent being paid for, and would rather look elsewhere.

I would be concerned if the current policy was not updated every season based on our finishing position and ambitions, but in our current position I think it's the right way to go.

 

[Norderner]

Can tell it's the close season. Because some silly old drunken piss artist said it, it must be true? BTW, is best 2 players at the time were coppell, hill, both signed from 3rd division tranmere and millwall. Pearson, his centre forward was from 2nd division dull titty. That's just off the top of my head, without going through the rest of his team!

 

[Worksop II]

If Chrissy were buying some players with Championship experience last season .......

Then some PL experience should be starting to appear in the squad for this Season

 

[DazBlade88]

I think what Wilder is doing is make sure he adds the depth early. He knows we need competition in every position and he's added that so far.

He's targeted a more proven Championship player in Ryan Bennett but he went elsewhere; so he has shown that he is looking at that type of player as well. I still think we've got some so called 'bigger' signings to come down the spine of the team. At least two centre halves, another central midfielder and I have a feeling we may look for a younger striker on loan from the Premier League.

 

[Bath Blade]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

Wasn't it also Tommy Docherty who said something along the lines of always sign players making a step up rather than making a step down, presumably because they're more motivated.

 

[Paulus]

We/re on the way up but we aren/t there yet so established performers at their peak at Championship level will still need convincing to leave what they have and move to us and by convincing in reality that means pushing the boat out financially. CW has clearly said he doesn't like a team where most players are financially at one level and one or two are in a different league - utter common sense in my view. That leaves 2 alternatives for recruitment, big players on their way down who still love playing and are willing to cut their wages in order to do that. This can work out fine and has done so for us in the past, Stuart McCall being a stand out example bringing his class and experience to us but it can also be a disaster if the player's character and motivation is wrong Lee Hendrie (and many others) spring to mind. If we do bring in a player like this I trust CW to be absolutely clear on making sure their reasons for coming here are the right ones. If it works out that way with Jags then win win as far as I'm concerned because he was a class act when he was with us and seems to have stayed that way despite being a top player in the madhouse of the PL surrounded by more utter pillocks than you can shake a stick at.

The second alternative is what CW is doing, targeting some of the stand out players at L1 and L2 level and backing them to make the step up. As others have pointed out this can be a winning strategy with for example Bournemouth picking up the likes of Harry Arter and Callum Wilson to fuel their rise up the leagues. Back to the OP I think that Docherty's quote is correct if a club is picking up average L1 players but I don't think that is what CW is doing, he's cherry picking and I think him and his team know exactly what they are looking for. It/s all about the ability to judge a player and from his signings so far it strikes me that CW is one of if not the best around at the moment finding affordable talent.

 

[WORKSOPBLADE]

The answer to this thread lays here,as well as CW.

https://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/paul-mitchell-our-signings-success.52909/

Trust in him for the signings with the background checks to player attitudes key.

This will apply to players at ALL levels/experience and ensures motivation factors and personality symmetry are equally important as ability.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Think the OP makes a legitimate point - and well done for sticking your face into the fire by making it- but even without signing anyone last year's team is nowhere near a relegation one.

If CW is looking to sign known players to enhance what he's got then short term that'll do for me.

Medium and longer term once the novelty / momentum wears off? I'd hope he steps out of his comfort zone and starts looking at better players ( this assumes a commensurate budget is made available) but let's do step 1 first.

Good post raul, that summarises the present and future, hopefully under Wilder.

All any of us can do is watch and then wonder at what exactly lies behind our current transfer policy. Amongst a few vocal posters the desire to see players from a higher level sign to us is understandable, but we're in the land of the unknown, and I don't see that we can do much more than trust in Wilder's approach to signing players who appear right for that step up from their current lower division status, who hopefully will be eager to grasp this opportunity and impress both the Blades' fans and themselves.

The little I know about Wilder is that he's a decent judge of a player. What impressed me about last season's signings was that in the main they were a cut above what we've been used to seeing wear a red and white shirt. I'd become accustomed to players who would underwhelm, players like Woolford, the depressingly average Sammon, or most knackered of all, Hammond. Not one amongst them capable of playing the type of football we saw under Chris Wilder (and I'm not omitting the work of Alan Knill), but all of them capable of struggling against the type of team that Wilder is clearly capable of creating. Whether we have another season like the last one, well only time will reveal. What I do know is that under the direction of Chris Wilder and Alan Knill we appear to have a management team cut from very different material to what we've been used to, something we should be grateful for. I know that type of statement can often be confused with blind faith, but given what we experienced last season I think, for once, we deserve an optimistic mindset, even if it's only for the first few months of the new season.

 

[I should coco]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who might never have said 'If you shag enough of your physio's wives.....'.

Scottish-tosspot-wanker who only ever fluked an FA Cup win. He can copulate right off.

 

[Nasik Blade]

Matt Lowton
Stephen Quinn
Nick Blackman
Harry Maguire
Jamie Murphy

All bought from us when we were a 3rd Div club and they've all gone on to more than hold their own in the Championship/Prem. You could throw in Che too but I'm not convinced he's had a stella season last yr so the jury is out on that one.

There are players who can easily step up, the question will be if we've picked the right ones.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Wasn't it also Tommy Docherty who ran off with the team phyio's wife?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Great OP Champers, and it certainly captures where I am with it all. There are certainly diamonds in the rough to be found in the lower leagues, however unlike those higher in the leagues we can less afford for these to go wrong. Wilder deserves a significant amount of faith and I would personally love it if he builds a solid side entirely from the lower teams which is competitive in this league. As much as anything else it would show there is a real alternative to the attitudes of a lot of the higher Championship sides who pay a fortune to lower than average Premiership player cruising for a pay day.
That said, I just can't share the optimism by some on here who think last years team would already be competitive by maintaining that level. I thought that too often we squandered good opportunities in the last third through poor decision making, control or execution, but more of a concern for me was our defensive shape and organisation which was found out by a few teams and we conceded a lot more than we should.
To keep that in perspective we were significantly better than our opposition, and if they scored it wasn't a problem as we could always back ourselves to get at least 2, and you set up to win against the league you are in. So, maybe we won't be as open this year, and we will see better defensive organisation certainly from a positioning point of view and our attacking talent, a year wiser, will step up.
This is obviously what I hope happens, as well as the Championship being much poorer than I give it credit for, and with our players hunger for success they will delivering the exciting and passionate play our fans can thrive off.
I hope this happens, but I have underlying concerns, not based on the manager or even the current set of players and signings, but on simply being a Blade.

 

[Silent Blade]

Wasn't it also Tommy Docherty who ran off with the team phyio's wife?

 

[SwissBlade]

I believe it was Tommy Docherty who came out with this one.

On an individual basis, I'm happy with Wilder's signings to date.

All sensible acquisitions, right age, profile of players that can improve and that are better than their current circumstances. Plus they fit into a reasonable wage structure.

I just wonder whether the above adage holds water and we should be looking at some quality of a higher level of experience.

Even the remaining targets are the best of where we have come from - Leonard, Holmes, Reeves. You could argue Mackay-Steven in the SPL is no higher than League One.

Playing Devil's Advocate a little here, because I do like what Wilder has done, but is there a point where we do need to go out and pay to get the quality of someone who is seasoned at this level or above?

It's a good question, but you can't take the quote in isolation.

What is a 3rd Division Player
As others have said, whilst some of our players are third division players, because thats where they've played most recently. But what is a 3rd Division player? Many players, particularly of British origin are "products" of the academies of premier league clubs and find themselves in the 2nd and 3rd tiers because they don't get the chance when success and money available in the top division pushes so many of these players aside.

Clouded by money
When we appointed Robson i said that we should not give him money, but see what he does with a relegated side which he inherited. Its too easy to throw money at a problem in football and if that doesn't work, chuck some more at it.

Jordan Rhodes is a perfect example. Is he £9.5 Million better than Ched? They both scored a lot in League 1 and had good attributes, plus Ched had scored goals at Norwich. Ched, on paper is a bigger gamble.

Our Unique situation
In Wilder, we have a manager who's a 4th and 3rd Division title winner, inexperienced in the 2nd tier, but with plenty of experience and knowledge of players in the lower division. Picking up bargains and remoulding them to fit our style.

I think nowadays, because managers don't know the lower leagues that well, just the academies, they snap up all the youngsters with a scatter gun approach and then let them go free when things don't work at 21/22.

I don't have a problem with Wilder picking up players from 3rd and 4th Div. However, they need to be ready for August and they need to buy into what we have at the club already. There is strength in the fact that throughout last season we had set backs, but we didn't panic.

My only concerns of the side from last season:
- Potential Defensive frailties - We conceded more goals that those around us. Does that mean against better sides we will struggle defensively?
- Clinical finishing - Are we technically good enough? We created a lot of chances last season, but are we going to see fewer chances created and therefore fewer goals in the Championship?
- Technical Ability - Some very good players like Freeman, Billy, Ched, Fleck and Coutts, will the rest be found out?
Fitness and Organisation - This is a major strength of the Wilder side, but is it enough in the Championship? Will we be up against sides as well organised and as fit as us?
Pace - Do we have enough to exploit and get behind teams?

We will only get answers to these questions in Sept/ Oct once the side has settled into the season... We'll find out then if 3rd Division players are good enough