Hosting european football

[bornablade]

This all happened before I started going to the Lane. I didn't realise just how big an issue this was at the time. There was certainly a great deal of newspaper coverage.

I always thought that our 3 sided ground was seen as a disadvantage compared to the 'World Cup chosen venue', Hillsborough.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Time for a reminder that Sheffield United are the eighth most successful club in the World Football Club Championship. We have competed in a magnificent 168 games.

Sheffield United Football Club vs The World

The Carrier Bag Firm informs us about the World Championship of 'winner stays on'.

www.thepinch.uk

 

[Revolution]

Debateable. It offered a route into the UEFA Cup, and clubs needed to qualify for it, but most top clubs declined. Palace qualified in a relegation season, and lost to Samsunapor.

‘Welcome to hell’: Palace’s one-match European tour - News - Crystal Palace F.C.

www.cpfc.co.uk

Regardless, their stadium only holds about 25k and we have won more domestic honours than them, so it would be hard to argue that Palace are the 'bigger' club.

I’m not sure I agree re our and Palace’s relative “sizes”. Over our whole history, yes, but over the last 10 seasons, are we really “bigger”? If we were competing for a player with them, would that player think we were bigger? It’s very subjective.

 

[S64 Blade]

It is a travesty we’ve never competed in any proper European competitions. Unsurprising, I suppose, given that since the mid 70s we’ve historically speaking, been crap.

This is another reason that we need to become a more established top flight side. We’re only on our 7th season there since Tony Currie was playing for us, which isn’t really good enough.

The quick return this time gives me hope we can re-address this, even if we yo-yo a bit.

 

[Working Class Hero]

Crystal Palace have never played in Europe. When we are in the PL we average more than they do but there is no doubt they have done better than us in the last decade but I don’t know if that makes them “bigger”.

The same can be said for Charlton but since we were both relegated in 2007 we have enjoyed the better history.

Crystal Palace did play in the Intertoto Cup. I know it was considered a bit of a Mickey Mouse european tournament but it's still more than us, and it was effectively a UEFA Cup qualifier.

Palace have had it good recently but they've spent well below half the amount of seasons in the top flight that we have, as have Charlton. They've also only won one FA Cup between them, so it's a stretch to call either of them bigger in my book.

 

[Revolution]

Crystal Palace did play in the Intertoto Cup. I know it was considered a bit of a Mickey Mouse european tournament but it's still more than us, and it was effectively a UEFA Cup qualifier.

Palace have had it good recently but they've spent well below half the amount of seasons in the top flight that we have, as have Charlton. They've also only won one FA Cup between them, so it's a stretch to call either of them bigger in my book.

As I said in my post above, agree 100 per cent re whole history. Are we “bigger” over the last 10 seasons though?

Charlton, definitely not. They are at their lowest ebb for nearly 50 years and their whole history is “worse” than ours.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Debateable. It offered a route into the UEFA Cup, and clubs needed to qualify for it, but most top clubs declined. Palace qualified in a relegation season, and lost to Samsunapor.

‘Welcome to hell’: Palace’s one-match European tour - News - Crystal Palace F.C.

www.cpfc.co.uk

Regardless, their stadium only holds about 25k and we have won more domestic honours than them, so it would be hard to argue that Palace are the 'bigger' club.

Sheff United have spent the bulk of their history in the top flight. 63 season in total.
Where as Palace are traditionally a lower division side and have only spent 24 season in the top flight.

We've won far more honours than Palace.
We've won the league, whereas Palace highest ever finish is 3rd.
We've won the FA cup 4 times where as Palace have ever won the FA cup.
Our average attendances and highest ever attendance has always been far higher than Palace.

There's several "big club" stats and we better them in every stat, apart from European competition.

 

[Working Class Hero]

Let's not forget by the way, that we would probably have qualified for Europe in 2020 were in not for a bleeding pandemic.

Add to that the above UEFA debacle in the 60s and how we missed out in 1975, we can consider ourselves very unlucky to never have qualified.

I can also think of at least four cup semi finals where we were unlucky to go through, which would also have seen us qualify for the UEFA Cup.

It's all very Sheffield United.

 

[Working Class Hero]

As I said in my post above, agree 100 per cent re whole history. Are we “bigger” over the last 10 seasons though?

No, but I don't think you can just go off the last 10 years, that's just a purple patch. And they have played in Europe anyway so it's a moot point haha.

 

[Revolution]

No, but I don't think you can just go off the last 10 years, that's just a purple patch. And they have played in Europe anyway so it's a moot point haha.

It's very subjective, and it changes over time in my view. As you say, it's moot.

 

[Sheffsteel]

As I said in my post above, agree 100 per cent re whole history. Are we “bigger” over the last 10 seasons though?

Charlton, definitely not. They are at their lowest ebb for nearly 50 years and their whole history is “worse” than ours.

Size of a club is never based on the last 10 years though, otherwise Brighton and even Brentford would be big clubs.
Recent history has a weighting but obviously a clubs whole history is still very relevant too.

In most "big club" surveys we usually come 17th to 19th biggest club in England, always (as expected) above Palace, Charlton, Brighton and Brentford.

 

[Dkc]

I’m not sure I agree re our and Palace’s relative “sizes”. Over our whole history, yes, but over the last 10 seasons, are we really “bigger”? If we were competing for a player with them, would that player think we were bigger? It’s very subjective.

Not subjective at all. You wouldn't say Bournemouth, Fulham or Brentford are bigger clubs than us, despite their wealth and top flight status. Same goes for Palace. We're bigger by all indicators apart from current wealth.

 

[Revolution]

Not subjective at all. You wouldn't say Bournemouth, Fulham or Brentford are bigger clubs than us, despite their wealth and top flight status. Same goes for Palace. We're bigger by all indicators apart from current wealth.

Size of a club is never based on the last 10 years though, otherwise Brighton and even Brentford would be big clubs.
Recent history has a weighting but obviously a clubs whole history is still very relevant too.

In most "big club" surveys we usually come 17th to 19th biggest club in England, always (as expected) above Palace, Charlton, Brighton and Brentford.

I must have missed the release of the "big club" rules.

It's all very subjective, and we all sound a bit like Wednesday fans when we are claiming we are bigger than Brighton.

 

[Programmechap2]

Not subjective at all. You wouldn't say Bournemouth, Fulham or Brentford are bigger clubs than us, despite their wealth and top flight status. Same goes for Palace. We're bigger by all indicators apart from current wealth.

I tend to agree, but look at it in my lifetime (born 1966) . Palace have had 24 top flight seasons, been in 2 FA Cup finals and their highest position was 3rd.

United have had 15 too flight seasons, not been in any finals and their highest position was 6th.

On that basis, you'd have to say Palace are the bigger club on recent history.

 

[Programmechap2]

I tend to agree, but look at it in my lifetime (born 1966) . Palace have had 24 top flight seasons, been in 2 FA Cup finals and their highest position was 3rd.

United have had 15 too flight seasons, not been in any finals and their highest position was 6th.

On that basis, you'd have to say Palace are the bigger club on recent history.

You could also add Palace only spending 3 seasons in the 3rd tier in that period, the last being 1977, as opposed to Uniteds 12 years in the lower tiers, the last being 2017.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It's very subjective, and it changes over time in my view. As you say, it's moot.

Agree it's slightly subjective....but disagree that it's very subjective.
Data/ statistics/ facts are taken into consideration. It's not just based on opinion.

You can't pick and choose what dates to ignore, it should all be taken into account.
History are events that happened, so mean something.

The subjectiveness amounts to what level of importance do you apply to recent history....agree the more recent the more relevant.
There should be a sliding scale where the further away (pre war) something happens then the lower the weighting.

 

[Dkc]

I must have missed the release of the "big club" rules.

It's all very subjective, and we all sound a bit like Wednesday fans when we are claiming we are bigger than Brighton.

The only 'big club' rule is common sense. If you think smaller clubs currently in the PL are bigger than us (and presumably Leeds, Sunderland etc) then you're on your own, as the replies to your post demonstrate.

Regardless - Blades are the biggest European club never to play in a European competition.

 

[Revolution]

The only 'big club' rule is common sense. If you think smaller clubs currently in the PL are bigger than us (and presumably Leeds, Sunderland etc) then you're on your own, as the replies to your post demonstrate.

Regardless - Blades are the biggest European club never to play in a European competition.

I don't think that. I don't think Bournemouth are bigger, or Luton.

But there is an argument that Palace are. And Brighton are currently a "big" club. Look at their post-promotion record. Look at their crowds. Look at the money they spend.

Brighton have finished in the top 10 in 2 successive seasons. When did we last do that? 1966-67.

I'm 50. We've finished in the top half of the top division 3 times in my life.

I just don't understand how people can be so definitive on such a subjective question.

 

[Dkc]

I tend to agree, but look at it in my lifetime (born 1966) . Palace have had 24 top flight seasons, been in 2 FA Cup finals and their highest position was 3rd.

United have had 15 too flight seasons, not been in any finals and their highest position was 6th.

On that basis, you'd have to say Palace are the bigger club on recent history.

No, you'd have to say that they have had more on-field success. Using your criteria Wimbledon are also a bigger club than us.

You need to look at stadium, support, tradition and overall history, not just recent success on the field.

 

[Ricardo Mantelban]

What about Sunderland being bigger.

 

[noire]

Sunderland have played in Europe.

So the competition now is between us and Charlton? I think we would win this dubious accolade.

 

[Revolution]

Sunderland have played in Europe.

So the competition now is between us and Charlton? I think we would win this dubious accolade.

Agree with that.

 

[Sheffsteel]

The only 'big club' rule is common sense. If you think smaller clubs currently in the PL are bigger than us (and presumably Leeds, Sunderland etc) then you're on your own, as the replies to your post demonstrate.

Regardless - Blades are the biggest European club never to play in a European competition.

There has to be a criteria regards what facts are considered regards determining a big club
....agree there should be a level of common sense but everyone has different common sense....so it's better to aim to be more quantifiable.

The most common factors considered are
1: Historical average attendance
2: Highest ever attendance
3: Even size/ capacity of a stadium is an indicator of size of club.
Often thought if a club was a build a brand new stadium, then the capacity would be an indicator of fanbase.
4: Fanbase, this one can be more subjective, is it based in shirt/ merchandise sales, website activity, social media followers.
For example Palace fans might say they are bigger than us because they have a bigger fanbase, who knows?
Away support can be an indicator of fanbase because some clubs have fans spread around the UK, so always have high away numbers, no matter what.

Agree with Revolution in that...surely current and more recent data should carry an extra weighting compared to stuff that happened pre war.
The more recent....the bigger the weighting. Our record since the Premier League started in 1992 is pretty poor.....both Sheffield clubs have underperformed..in fact Yorkshire as a whole has been terrible in recent years.

Other big club factors are
5: Honours won, league positions more important than cups
6: Seasons in the top flgiht
7: Wealth
8: Potential, this is another subjective one, usually based on local population, hence why clubs like Bristol City, Plymouth, Cardiff are sometimes referred to
as "big clubs" when the historical data suggests they are all small clubs. Virtually all London clubs, could claim to be big due to their potential.

Minor big club factors
9: Seasons played in Europe/ reputation
10: Largest transfer paid/ latest transfer received
11: Number of internationals etc etc.

 

[Revolution]

Here is a list of teams who have won one of the 3 domestic trophies or European trophies since we last won one:

Manchester City
Manchester United
West Ham United
Liverpool
Leicester City
Arsenal
Chelsea
Wigan Athletic
Swansea City
Birmingham City
Portsmouth
Tottenham Hotspur
Middlesbrough
Blackburn Rovers
Aston Villa
Everton
Leeds United
Sheffield Wednesday
Nottingham Forest
Wimbledon
Luton Town
Coventry City
Oxford United
Norwich City
Ipswich Town
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Southampton
Derby County
Sunderland
Stoke City
Swindon Town
Newcastle United
West Bromwich Albion
Queens Park Rangers
Burnley
Bolton Wanderers
Blackpool
Charlton Athletic
Preston North End
Cardiff City
Huddersfield Town

And here is a list of teams who have won nothing but have reached a major final since we last did it in 1936:

Watford
Crystal Palace
Hull City
Bradford City
Fulham
Millwall
Tranmere Rovers
Oldham Athletic
Brighton and Hove Albion
Rochdale
Rotherham United

How depressing.

 

[Working Class Hero]

Can anyone offer up a bigger club than Charlton Athletic from across Europe?

 

[Revolution]

Can anyone offer up a bigger club than Charlton Athletic from across Europe?

I've been wracking my brains but I'm not sure there is a comparable side.

I've heard it said before that Genoa, who haven't won anything since the 1930s, have a similar record of non success to us since the War, but they have made the UEFA Cup twice so they are out.

Arminia Bielefeld have played 19 Bundesliga seasons since it started in 1963, have won nothing before or after, and I don't think they've been in Europe. Their ground holds 27,000 but I would think they are a bit more obscure than us.

 

[noire]

Arminia Bielefeld have played in the Intertoto (albeit before it was an official UEFA tournament).

 

[Revolution]

Arminia Bielefeld have played in the Intertoto (albeit before it was an official UEFA tournament).

That was when it was basically used to replace the pools during the summer months!

 

[Programmechap2]

Here is a list of teams who have won one of the 3 domestic trophies or European trophies since we last won one:

Manchester City
Manchester United
West Ham United
Liverpool
Leicester City
Arsenal
Chelsea
Wigan Athletic
Swansea City
Birmingham City
Portsmouth
Tottenham Hotspur
Middlesbrough
Blackburn Rovers
Aston Villa
Everton
Leeds United
Sheffield Wednesday
Nottingham Forest
Wimbledon
Luton Town
Coventry City
Oxford United
Norwich City
Ipswich Town
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Southampton
Derby County
Sunderland
Stoke City
Swindon Town
Newcastle United
West Bromwich Albion
Queens Park Rangers
Burnley
Bolton Wanderers
Blackpool
Charlton Athletic
Preston North End
Cardiff City
Huddersfield Town

And here is a list of teams who have won nothing but have reached a major final since we last did it in 1936:

Watford
Crystal Palace
Hull City
Bradford City
Fulham
Millwall
Tranmere Rovers
Oldham Athletic
Brighton and Hove Albion
Rochdale
Rotherham United

How depressing.

Of current league clubs who have ever won anything I think only Barnsley (1912) and Notts County (1894) have to go further back than United for their last trophy.

 

[Programmechap2]

Of current league clubs who have ever won anything I think only Barnsley (1912) and Notts County (1894) have to go further back than United for their last trophy.

And Bradford City (1911)