Hindsight Thread - Did we do enough in the summer?

[SwissBlade]

This popped up on the Kazim thread, so rather than keep taking that thread off topic, lets discuss it on here.

Given the benefit of hindsight, I said at the time that our summer preparations were going well and now that we've seen the accounts and the actual state that the finances are in, I think we did remarkably well during the summer.

Of course so many on here think that everything that the club does is wrong, but apart from the obvious disaster of replacing the manager after two games having given him the full summer to prepare, what could we have done better in terms of preparations for the new season.

- Player Ins/ Outs
- Preseason games
- Tactical focus
- etc etc

 

[Micalijo]

This popped up on the Kazim thread, so rather than keep taking that thread off topic, lets discuss it on here.

Given the benefit of hindsight, I said at the time that our summer preparations were going well and now that we've seen the accounts and the actual state that the finances are in, I think we did remarkably well during the summer.

Of course so many on here think that everything that the club does is wrong, but apart from the obvious disaster of replacing the manager after two games having given him the full summer to prepare, what could we have done better in terms of preparations for the new season.

- Player Ins/ Outs
- Preseason games
- Tactical focus
- etc etc

Sacked Blackwell immediately after end of Ipswich game

Signed some players with pace and height, especially centre-backs but also a quick striker

Got rid of Monty

I find it totally unbelievable you think the summer went well.

 

[raul]

Been honest about the finances in the summer instead of talking the talk in the full knowledge we wouldn't be walking the walk?

Not made promises about no longer relying on the loan market, then relying on the loan market?

 

[SwissBlade]

Sacked Blackwell immediately after end of Ipswich game

Signed some players with pace and height, especially centre-backs but also a quick striker

Got rid of Monty

I find it totally unbelievable you think the summer went well.

Opinions differ Mic

However, like I said, its all relative to where we are now. You have been one of the most vocal posters on here telling us all how skint we are, how we've made mistakes with property and yet you find my post unbelievable.

I don't disagree with you on sacking Mr Blackwell at the end of last season, but that didn't happen so that's not really the point of this thread (we've discussed this part so much on here)

So we brought in Ertl, Bartley and latterly Nosworthy - All with height and none are slow and all three can play centre half. On paper good signings.

I think tactically we prepared poorly, fitness wise we seemed ok, but set pieces are still not right, defensive and attacking.

Agreed about a quick striker, but can you think of one that was available within our budget?

 

[beightonblade]

hindsight ..................fookin hell stop looking backwards.

foresight.......... fook tom hark off and get sumbody owning the Blades who cares ! .....reight now were blowing about in the wind and going backwards.

 

[Grecian2000]

Not so much hindsight as what I said most of last season.

Blackwell removed early (i.e. at end of last season)
New manager recruited in time for Summer re-build
Allow Monty, Quinn and Morgan to look for other clubs or accept short contracts on reduced terms freeing up cash for newcomer wages
Do not go back after Nosworthy
Go back after Bartley
Change the focus of the team (i.e. pace and passing required, brawn and boot a thing of the past)

The hindsight bit comes in with us keeping the wrong man in charge, allowing the pitiful amount of money we had to be wasted and the number of "squad fillers" that we accepted as the re-building and our reliance on Loanees AGAIN.

 

[JohnDenver]

Been honest about the finances in the summer instead of talking the talk in the full knowledge we wouldn't be walking the walk?

Not made promises about no longer relying on the loan market, then relying on the loan market?

Clubs always bibble on about aiming for the playoffs. If SUFC said this was to be a transitional season after having sold season tickets there'd be an equal amount of uproar to now.

As for the loan market, that is indeed a cock-up. But if the permanent players cannot be brought in during the window, then what else can we do? I suspect part of the reason Blackwell was sacked was his recruitment failures and the state we found ourselves [squad] in at the end of the window. Perhaps Birch wanted Blackwell to be buying more lower league players but Blackwell couldn't find the quality he wanted within the budget.

Every employer I've worked for wants something for nothing. More for less. Moons on sticks...

 

[lenners]

A complete and utter failure to put together a proper team over a summer in which the club knew from March onwards what league it would be in somehow translates to the club doing well?
And that's followed by sacking the manager after the second game of the season?
Lordy, I've seen some remarkable claims in mi' time but I think I've just read the most remarkable.

 

[SwissBlade]

A complete and utter failure to put together a proper team over a summer in which the club knew from March onwards what league it would be in somehow translates to the club doing well?
And that's followed by sacking the manager after the second game of the season?
Lordy, I've seen some remarkable claims in mi' time but I think I've just read the most remarkable.

Ok then Lenners, we all know that you are the king of hindsight and 'I told you so', but on this occasion, rather than snipe and dismiss an opinion, why don't you offer some constructive wisdom into what we could have done better. After all that was the point of the thread.

No hotels, no snipes and jibes at the powers at be, just tell us what you'd have done better.

Its quite simple really

 

[Bergen Blade]

Not so much hindsight as what I said most of last season.

Blackwell removed early (i.e. at end of last season)
New manager recruited in time for Summer re-build
Allow Monty, Quinn and Morgan to look for other clubs or accept short contracts on reduced terms freeing up cash for newcomer wages
Do not go back after Nosworthy
Go back after Bartley
Change the focus of the team (i.e. pace and passing required, brawn and boot a thing of the past)

The hindsight bit comes in with us keeping the wrong man in charge, allowing the pitiful amount of money we had to be wasted and the number of "squad fillers" that we accepted as the re-building and our reliance on Loanees AGAIN.

Spot on. We had a great chance to rebuild the squad over the summer, but Blackwell's preferences blew it.

 

[Micalijo]

Opinions differ Mic

However, like I said, its all relative to where we are now. You have been one of the most vocal posters on here telling us all how skint we are, how we've made mistakes with property and yet you find my post unbelievable.

I don't disagree with you on sacking Mr Blackwell at the end of last season, but that didn't happen so that's not really the point of this thread (we've discussed this part so much on here)

So we brought in Ertl, Bartley and latterly Nosworthy - All with height and none are slow and all three can play centre half. On paper good signings.

I think tactically we prepared poorly, fitness wise we seemed ok, but set pieces are still not right, defensive and attacking.

Agreed about a quick striker, but can you think of one that was available within our budget?

If we can afford to pay Monty circa 12k a week and Nozza even more I don't think a couple of ideally young and pacey strikers on 4k a week would have been out of reach.

This asking me for possible players doesn't wash either - it aint my job.

Let me stress that if this policy meant we got relegated then so be it - McCabe should have said at the forum what the position was and that no loan players would be coming other than to cover injuries. That is an alternative strategy Swiss - not hindsight either. We might get relegated anyway with the big money players still here.

 

[lenners]

Ok then Lenners, we all know that you are the king of hindsight and 'I told you so', but on this occasion, rather than snipe and dismiss an opinion, why don't you offer some constructive wisdom into what we could have done better. After all that was the point of the thread.

No hotels, no snipes and jibes at the powers at be, just tell us what you'd have done better.

Its quite simple really

Except Swiss, it isn't hindsight, is it.
It was pointed out during the summer that we were failing to assemble a team/squad - which prompted the response, possibly from yourself as well as others, that we should all wait...and wait...and wait...
So, my friend, your attempt to re-write history doesn't wash with me.
The summer, by any measure, was an absolute disaster.
It was pointed out we should have acquired players at the time, so it's a bit bizarre for you to claim any sort of hindsight on my part.
Any notion that we did well in the summer when the club was so paralysed by lack of direction it didn't even know it wanted the manager beyond two games is frankly amazing.
You seem to have a really weird blindspot when it comes to the management of our club when the facts of what happened are staring you in the face.

 

[Bladesway]

Hindsight eh, its brilliant. Problem is many were looking forwards for some time saying we had problems on the horizon.

Yeah, its great blaming Blackwell. A limited manager on a limited budget. Its not like we didn't know that when he took over. Blackwell should have gone the end of last season, not be allowed to build a squad and then be binned off 3 games in. Thats criminally bad management from the top.

Then we got the cheapest option in (again). A man the Chairman knew would be a pushover and would just tow the party line. Speed may be the answer to all of our prayers but its one hell of a chance you are taking with him. Especially when you aren't giving him the tools to do the job (sound familiar).

Our problem isn't wholly the managers we have had but they way we have hired, the way we have fired and then recruited as a knee jerk the cheapest possible replacement. Where we are isn't a fluke nor a surprise. If you asset strip a company eventually its service suffers as does its performance. Thats all that has happened. BT replaced by Chedwyn, Killer replaced by Nyron etc etc etc. Yes we had to trim the wage budget but surely we all knew this would be the end result?

Problem with your thread Swiss is that it all went out the window 3 games in. I believe you employ a Manager for that season. He has a target and if he isn't achieving that target you sit down and find out why. If it takes time for players to gel, then thats fair enough. If you get to Christmas and its going Pete Tonge you either invest or progress with that Manager. If the Manager fails at the end of that season you fire them, having given them fair time to do their job. However, if that Manager fails you surely look at your own performance and systems in getting that man in. How did you support that Manager? How could you have performed better yourself? Did you do everything to enable development. In all catagories I would say McCabe let Blackwell down.

Lenners is on the money in my opinion. Again.

 

[raul]

Following the logic on here relegation will be fantastic because it will mean the club wont be getting pressurised by the nasty fans to compete in the Championship anymore.

 

[sheffielder]

Of course everything is hindsight but would anyone here spend 15k on Britton and 24k on nosworthy totalling nearly 40k a week. That's 5 x 8k players which I am sure you could pick up easily. Is anyone here telling me that you could not have picked up a better defender than Nosworthy for 10k or less.

Our squad is just not balanced and Monty and Britton would and will never be a good midfield 2 in a 442. Britton needs someone run past him like a Pratley etc; who would create space. The signings we made were for the wrong jigsaw. Unfortunately we need to make some signings to correct this or we are going to be in trouble. I won't lose faith in McCabe until I see what happens in January

 

[SwissBlade]

Except Swiss, it isn't hindsight, is it.
It was pointed out during the summer that we were failing to assemble a team/squad - which prompted the response, possibly from yourself as well as others, that we should all wait...and wait...and wait...
So, my friend, your attempt to re-write history doesn't wash with me.
The summer, by any measure, was an absolute disaster.
It was pointed out we should have acquired players at the time, so it's a bit bizarre for you to claim any sort of hindsight on my part.
Any notion that we did well in the summer when the club was so paralysed by lack of direction it didn't even know it wanted the manager beyond two games is frankly amazing.
You seem to have a really weird blindspot when it comes to the management of our club when the facts of what happened are staring you in the face.

Thats all very nice Lenners, I'm not sure where you get that I'm attempting "to re-write history" from. You still haven't contributed to what the original thread was about.

I even put the key part of this thread in bold for you. I didn't ask to remind of why you think the club is mismanaged, you put your point across on an almost daily basis. I understand that you and many others like to remind us and thats all well and good. But how's about being constructive and offering your "expert" opinion of how we could've done things better, with the view that you had (no blind spots in your vision, clearly) then you could tell us what we could do better. Not what we did wrong.

For me the summer wasn't a disaster, but the planning was ripped up 2 games in. We don't know why Blackwell was sacked, Birch admitted it was a mistake to keep him beyond last season, but the summer must have been planned with direction and with Blackwell in the plans.

I don't think there is a blind spot in my view of the management, i'm clear on the facts, I just hold a different view to your 20/20 vision.

Go on Lenners, tell us something that you think we could've done, I know you want to.

 

[sheffielder]

Thats all very nice Lenners, I'm not sure where you get that I'm attempting "to re-write history" from. You still haven't contributed to what the original thread was about.

I even put the key part of this thread in bold for you. I didn't ask to remind of why you think the club is mismanaged, you put your point across on an almost daily basis. I understand that you and many others like to remind us and thats all well and good. But how's about being constructive and offering your "expert" opinion of how we could've done things better, with the view that you had (no blind spots in your vision, clearly) then you could tell us what we could do better. Not what we did wrong.

For me the summer wasn't a disaster, but the planning was ripped up 2 games in. We don't know why Blackwell was sacked, Birch admitted it was a mistake to keep him beyond last season, but the summer must have been planned with direction and with Blackwell in the plans.

I don't think there is a blind spot in my view of the management, i'm clear on the facts, I just hold a different view to your 20/20 vision.

Go on Lenners, tell us something that you think we could've done, I know you want to.

I am struggling to see which angle your coming from here. What was good about our summer? Ertl? Kozluk? Nosworthy? Blackwell still being in charge? If i was McCabe and Blackwell's team had gone down 3-0 at home to Warnock's QPR without even a wimper or effort his feet would not have touched the ground.

 

[SwissBlade]

I am struggling to see which angle your coming from here. What was good about our summer? Ertl? Kozluk? Nosworthy? Blackwell still being in charge?

I said a lot at the time around the approach of the club, so no, not Blackwell in charge necessarily but more the support he was given... right up until the 2nd game of the season!

 

[lenners]

Swiss, I said what needed to be done in the summer - in the summer.
I was constructive about what needed to be done in the summer - in the summer.
What were your comments in the summer?

You appear to be indulging in some really bizarre thinking. 'The summer wasn't a disaster but the planning was ripped up after 2 games?' Eh?
The planning was to fail to assemble a full squad of players and hope Blackwell muddled through? And that was a good summer?
Truly weird.

 

[SwissBlade]

Swiss, I said what needed to be done in the summer - in the summer.
I was constructive about what needed to be done in the summer - in the summer.
What were your comments in the summer?

You appear to be indulging in some really bizarre thinking. 'The summer wasn't a disaster but the planning was ripped up after 2 games?' Eh?
The planning was to fail to assemble a full squad of players and hope Blackwell muddled through? And that was a good summer?
Truly weird.

The problem is Lenners, is that you made suggestions that we should've "assembled a team/ squad" or "acquired players". Very vague Lenners, hardly something to put into a robust business plan.

Why is my thinking bizarre? Because I thought that the club restructured the footballing philosophy to what the fans were looking for? Ok so they didn't sack Blackwell, but as I said during the summer, once they took the decision to keep him, they then clearly sat down and tried to plan through.

I'll try to dig out what I wrote back then when I get chance, but here was a brief summary of why I saw it as a positive summer (given the circumstances):

- A decent preseason programme ending with a "Glamour tie" v Estudiantes (Youngsters)
- Appointing Pembo
- Looking to bring youngsters like Lowton et al through (blooded a number of them in the friendlies)
- Firming up contracts with a number of long term key players to the manager at that time.
- Getting a new reliable Keeper in Simmo (after Paddy's move)
- Bringing new faces on decent deals - Ertl, Boggy and Britton
- The Britton signing, to many was a clear sign that we wanted to start playing more passing football
- Making a clear statement that we weren't going to rely on short term Loanees (although this has since been blown out of the water again)
- Getting rid of Jordan Stewart!

 

[Fiery Blade]

The blame for the current situation rests fairly and squarely on McCabe's shoulders
Blackwell should have been fired at the end of last season
New Manager in position to recruit players and New Back Room staff to develop tactical approach for new season
Monty and Quinn released to free up wages
McCabe and Birch to have told the truth at the fans' forum instead of lying through their back teeth

Sorry Swiss, if you thought the pre season went well then..................................................

 

[SteelCity Blade]

This popped up on the Kazim thread, so rather than keep taking that thread off topic, lets discuss it on here.

Given the benefit of hindsight, I said at the time that our summer preparations were going well and now that we've seen the accounts and the actual state that the finances are in, I think we did remarkably well during the summer.

Of course so many on here think that everything that the club does is wrong, but apart from the obvious disaster of replacing the manager after two games having given him the full summer to prepare, what could we have done better in terms of preparations for the new season.

- Player Ins/ Outs
- Preseason games
- Tactical focus
- etc etc

Good thread Swiss. My take on those points above:-

Ins/Outs - It appears that we did as much as we could financially but we havent used our budget wisely enough IMO. Rather than spend the bulk of our wage budget on two PL defenders and a midfielder who is far too good a footballer to play in our side, we should have looked in the Championship and League One for younger players who could potentially step up/ do a job. That way we would have probably been able to fund a bigger squad with players who are commited long term.

Far too many loans again for me and this has strangled our onward activity in the transfer market. It seems as if it was a hopeful attempt to compete for a top 6 finish but in the end it has left us depleted of options and quality in several areas.

Pre-season games - United never play strong enough opposition in pre-season. I dont see how Rotherham and Worksop prepares you for the rigours of a Championship season. A game or two against a lower/non-league side should be played at the very beginning of pre-season to ease the players back in.....then you need to up it in terms of the oppo to prepare properly IMO. Having said that, its probably a lot cheaper for the club to stage the kind of games that they do.

Tactical focus - We haven't had any. Two games into the league season we changed manager and tried a complete overhaul of the way we play. This is still a work in progress even now and until we get players back/ move players on/ bring new ones in we wont see any massive improvements in style or effectiveness. It could be at least another year until we see United playing consistently attractive football and possibly even longer until we see consistent results.

This season was a write off from the moment we sacked Blackwell. Bringing in a manager with totally different ideas who has to work with the same squad had problems written all over it. You could possibly even pin-point the end of last season and keeping KB on as the moment this season was a non-starter. I said it at the time and I'm saying it now.....he should have either been moved on in May/June or they should have stuck with him until the end of this season. They did neither.

 

[bladesadviser]

Simple, you cannot let a manager build a team over the summer then sack him 3 games in. If MaCabe/Birch or whoever thought Blackwell was the man for the job at Ipswich in May then he needed to be given at least until Christmas, if hes not the man then pay him off take the time to get the right man in and give him the summer to form his team. Instead after 2 league games against what has turned out to be the top two clubs in the league, one of which is still unbeaten they decide to give a rookie who was good and repected player a three year contract.
Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Martin Peters and Geoff Hurst were great players but none of them were even good managers

 

[Ollessendro]

Except Swiss, it isn't hindsight, is it.
It was pointed out during the summer that we were failing to assemble a team/squad - which prompted the response, possibly from yourself as well as others, that we should all wait...and wait...and wait...

Exactly. Anyone remeber this thread? http://www.s24su.com/showthread.php?19287-tick-tock&highlight=

I've not a lot to add to the points that others (particularly Mic, Lenners, Grecian, Bladseway and Fiery) but to asnwer your questions Swiss:

players in/out - clearly not enough. The squad was too small and lacked quality. We gave contracts to deadbeats (Cressy, Monty, Quinn) as well as singing more dead wood (Kozzy, Ertl, Nos). We should have scowered the lower leagues and looked for players with cretivity and pace. Sure it is not easy, but it is certain that with the money spent on wages we could have a better set of players. I'd have liked to have seen a squad the size of 25 too.

pre season games - we should have cancelled the tour to Malta. With the state of the squad we shouldn't have gone. That or some other arrangement, such as Birch staying at home and trying to sing players.

tactical focus - difficult to answer with the change of management. It is clear the current squad needed more focus on trying to play football. They spend the whole summer lugging balls the length of the field and then after 2 games where asked to start passing it around. Of course Monty, Ertl, Morgs and Nos where bemused when they were asked to find a red and White shirt 5 yards away.

It is all overshadowed by the Blackwell issue. We should have sacked him after Ipswich and given Speed the whole summer. It really makes everythingelse if's and but's. Sure, this has been said a hundred times, but the fact is that it was a catastrophic decision by the board. It has ruined our season and may even send us down. Blackwell was given the summer to tailor his squad (albeit with his hands tied) and then after he had done it, Speed is given the job. Takig over a poor managers side, low on confidence, with little resources and very little pace/flair/quality is the equaivalent of sending out as a Matador into an arena with a fresh angry bull without a sword, blind folded and wearing red.