Helmy Eltoukhi - Take Risks but Fail Fast.

[bakeblade]

Seems to me that Steve Rosen is the “fixer” behind our owners and Helmy Eltoukhi is the mind behind our strategy going forward.

Eltoukhi is one of Time Magazine’s 50 most influential people in healthcare - on the planet. He has addressed the United Nations and the World Economic Forum.

He has used complex data and analytical techniques to provide information for medical experts to use the wetware between their ears to diagnose and treat not just cancer, but the specific form of cancer, from a simple blood test. He doesn’t tell experts what to do, but provides them with invaluable evidence to enhance their performance.

But how is he at running a business? I trawled the interweb a bit for comments on the management culture of his company Guardant Health. I came across the words:- Driven, Focused, Ruthless and my favourite “Take Risks but Fail Fast”.

When you’re trying to innovate and make changes you have to try things, but see when they are not working and move on - don’t keep repeating mistakes ( sound familiar?)!

We have an owner with a brain the size of a planet and a great approach to business - a pragmatic visionary. Looking around at ownerships, I think we are extremely lucky, and I am really excited by the journey that we are about to begin.

UTB & Slava Ukraini!

That approach could prove very expensive when applied to football. I assume they have got very deep pockets.

 

[Sheffsteel]

That approach could prove very expensive when applied to football. I assume they have got very deep pockets.

I suppose it’s a case of it’s better to have tried and failed instead of not trying at all.

You find a lot of successful business have an early history of taking risks and they keep taking risks until they succeed.
Selles isn’t a random selection…the owners are intelligent and obviously have a strategy regards the future and Selles must match the job spec real well.

So it’s pretty clear we must be going down the director of football/ advisor route buying the players and deciding policy whereas the 1st team coach will just prepare and coach the players, design tactics and pick the starting 11. The English frown on this system but there must be a reason why it’s preferred everywhere in the world and even in the PL. The traditional system where a manager runs everything is dying away. It’s old fashioned and only happens in the EFL and non league.

I’ve seen complaints on here that Wilder and SU don’t use the foreign market enough. It looks like this is another policy change where AI will be helping to select players from abroad. Wilder had little experience working with foreigners, whereas Selles has coached in many countries, so has vast experience working with foreign players.

These are the 2 major policy changes the club must have decided in order to validate the Selles appointment.

 

[bakeblade]

I suppose it’s a case of it’s better to have tried and failed instead of not trying at all.

You find a lot of successful business have an early history of taking risks and they keep taking risks until they succeed.
Selles isn’t a random selection…the owners are intelligent and obviously have a strategy regards the future and Selles must match the job spec real well.

So it’s pretty clear we must be going down the director of football/ advisor route buying the players and deciding policy whereas the 1st team coach will just prepare and coach the players, design tactics and pick the starting 11. The English frown on this system but there must be a reason why it’s preferred everywhere in the world and even in the PL. The traditional system where a manager runs everything is dying away. It’s old fashioned and only happens in the EFL and non league.

I’ve seen complaints on here that Wilder and SU don’t use the foreign market enough. It looks like this is another policy change where AI will be helping to select players from abroad. Wilder had little experience working with foreigners, whereas Selles has coached in many countries, so has vast experience working with foreign players.

These are the 2 major policy changes the club must have decided in order to validate the Selles appointment.

The foreign market seems to be dedicated to Bulgaria at the moment

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

That approach could prove very expensive when applied to football. I assume they have got very deep pockets.

It’s actually very cheap - if something is costing you money (or some other important value) dump it quickly - don’t throw good money after bad.

Knowing that this your strategy you build it into all of your planning and contracts.

UTB & FTP!

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

That approach could prove very expensive when applied to football. I assume they have got very deep pockets.

Whereas in healthcare and medical diagnostics it's cheaper and less risky?
It's about evolving fast and succeeding quicker.

 

[ATL Recs]

You can have a brain the size of a planet, but if you try to eliminate human fallibility from the game of football…You really are missing the point.

I cant see how your removing human failabilify
It is still the human who uses evidence AI provides them with

 

[CarlMcBlade]

I cant see how your removing human failabilify
It is still the human who uses evidence AI provides them.

But surely a manager should live or die on his own judgment of what a player is. I guess it all depends on how deep we go into this, If Selles is forced to coach players presented to him via Ai…I can see where the “failing fast” comes in.

 

[Oreyt]

Ooh, Fail Fast.

Is he Scrum or Kanban though?

 

[Cheeky Blade]

Football shows that time and time the proof is in the pudding…and that the pudding is extremely expensive.

I sincerely hope our owners are as sharp as a tack and we see both progression and success on the pitch.

But it’s going to be tough, as we saw last season.

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

But surely a manager should live or die on his own judgment of what a player is. I guess it all depends on how deep we go into this, If Selles is forced to coach players presented to him via Ai…I can see where the “failing fast” comes in.

The whole point of a modern football structure is that the “manager” is just part of a team.

The team agree on their strategy and everybody is judged individually on the effectiveness of their contribution in - analysis, recruitment, fitness, on-field performance.

Your reference to AI usage is not correct. AI is a simple tool which, if used correctly, can enhance the effectiveness of every one of the activities that I’ve listed. There is no room for a cult-leader in modern football, hence the title of manager is disappearing.

UTB &FTP!

 

[Lord Eddard Muir]

What about the football side that’s what it’s all about surely

Len Komoroski is the board member with a track record of transforming the culture, and fortunes, of unfashionable sports clubs. Also we have Bettis of course who has a wealth of experience running, well, us.

That's the good thing with this board, it does seem to have lots of relevant experience across all the different areas you want to come together on a project like this. You've got the frontman to sell it to investors (Rosen), the galaxy brain ideas guy (Eltoukhy), the sports business guy (Komoroski), the day-to-day football guy (Bettis), the entertainment guy (Russo)... on paper at least it feels like a bit of a dream team.

 

[s20Blade]

Wouldn't keeping Wilder be a bigger risk considering he failed the first time at the highest parachute payment season?

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Len Komoroski is the board member with a track record of transforming the culture, and fortunes, of unfashionable sports clubs. Also we have Bettis of course who has a wealth of experience running, well, us.

That's the good thing with this board, it does seem to have lots of relevant experience across all the different areas you want to come together on a project like this. You've got the frontman to sell it to investors (Rosen), the galaxy brain ideas guy (Eltoukhy), the sports business guy (Komoroski), the day-to-day football guy (Bettis), the entertainment guy (Russo)... on paper at least it feels like a bit of a dream team.

I've never been entirely convinced by Bettis. He's been around a while but came across to me as a bit of a yes man to the Prince.

 

[Dellas Cowboys]

Think Watford?

They're not using AI. They're using Chaps Eye.

 

[Servigliano]

I may not agree with this “fail fast” methodology being anything new or enlightening (it’s been a aspirational goal and standard phrase in my industry for at least a decade) but ucandomagic has outlined why he is excited by it.
Why is he not correct in your opinion and why can you foresee an epic fail?

I'm sorry if it came across as a little unkind.
From what I gather it seems AI deems success to mean, in simple terms eg for defenders, how many tackles/duels/headers are "won" in order to judge defensive capabilities. In reality it is vastly more complex. For example, just look at JLT's stats. for tackles, especially 50/50's won. I'd bet they are incredibly high. So, on the face of it he's an excellent defender? Does he have to make those tackles because he's having to cover for a defence/midfield that is poor - or is it because his anticipation/organisational skills are poor - or something else? (Sorry to have a go but just look at where he was for Sunderland's equaliser...).
AS regards midfield, how can AI stats judge how good a defensive midfielder is at for example, cutting out space - I may be wrong but how can that be measured? That aspect is surely, again about the skills of anticipation and organisation- and how can that ever be measured?
The same applies to attackers - runs off the ball, making space for others - things that most rarely appreciate, and that ultra rare and immeasurable gift - being in the right place at the right time, regardless of the quality of your own and the opponent's team.

The best defender I've seen at United was Paul McGrath. He was sadly way passed his best. He couldn't really run - his body was shot. But he was absolute class. You couldn't measure it - and I'd warrant AI would consider him an epic fail.
Next best was probably Jags. Again, all about anticipation and organisation and I can't see how AI can measure that.

I just hope we don't rely mainly on AI. Get a good scouting system to run expert eyes over whoever AI tells us to buy.

 

[Youngand70]

That's nowt Eddie Colquhoun and John Denver are both back from the dead and on here - you never know who you will bump into!

I've never been entirely convinced by Bettis. He's been around a while but came across to me as a bit of a yes man to the Prince.

I'm of the same opinion. Bettis's football experience is confined to just us. Came in while McCabe was still running things and was kept on by Prince Skint. I'm sure I heard he was a mate of Scott or Simon McCabe. So maybe not what you know but who you know. Was he then recommended by PA to the new owners. Doesn't strike me as a "dynamic, finger on the pulse" CEO that is required for the new path we are going down. He certainly seemed to have no control over Chris Wilder hence the £445,500 in fines and other off field shenanigans. Then again was it an appropriate "professional" working relationship? Last year he was certainly anti Director of Football, was that totally his view or was it PA's view or couldn't PA afford one, we will never know?

 

[blade67]

Seems to me that Steve Rosen is the “fixer” behind our owners and Helmy Eltoukhi is the mind behind our strategy going forward.

Eltoukhi is one of Time Magazine’s 50 most influential people in healthcare - on the planet. He has addressed the United Nations and the World Economic Forum.

He has used complex data and analytical techniques to provide information for medical experts to use the wetware between their ears to diagnose and treat not just cancer, but the specific form of cancer, from a simple blood test. He doesn’t tell experts what to do, but provides them with invaluable evidence to enhance their performance.

But how is he at running a business? I trawled the interweb a bit for comments on the management culture of his company Guardant Health. I came across the words:- Driven, Focused, Ruthless and my favourite “Take Risks but Fail Fast”.

When you’re trying to innovate and make changes you have to try things, but see when they are not working and move on - don’t keep repeating mistakes ( sound familiar?)!

We have an owner with a brain the size of a planet and a great approach to business - a pragmatic visionary. Looking around at ownerships, I think we are extremely lucky, and I am really excited by the journey that we are about to begin.

UTB & Slava Ukraini!

"Take Risks but Fail Fast” is a fairly common mantra in software companies because failing slow totally kills you in that game.

I'm not really sure how it applies to running a football club though.

 

[247Blade]

That approach could prove very expensive when applied to football. I assume they have got very deep pockets.

Shouldn't be getting so many injuries now then, seeing as he's a healthcare expert?!

 

[247Blade]

Len Komoroski is the board member with a track record of transforming the culture, and fortunes, of unfashionable sports clubs. Also we have Bettis of course who has a wealth of experience running, well, us.

That's the good thing with this board, it does seem to have lots of relevant experience across all the different areas you want to come together on a project like this. You've got the frontman to sell it to investors (Rosen), the galaxy brain ideas guy (Eltoukhy), the sports business guy (Komoroski), the day-to-day football guy (Bettis), the entertainment guy (Russo)... on paper at least it feels like a bit of a dream team.

We could do with some entertainment on the pitch.

 

[Bartleby]

"Take Risks but Fail Fast” is a fairly common mantra in software companies because failing slow totally kills you in that game.

I'm not really sure how it applies to running a football club though.

I'd say persisting with Cannon might be an example of not "failing fast", because he'd cost 10 million, even though it wasn't working.

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

Servigliano, as in your post a few posts above, it is easy to post on here, with a fixed agenda, reacting to events in a way to justify an opinion, without reanalysing what has actually happened.

I’m not particularly a JLT fan, but he was hung out to dry for Sunderland’s equaliser by “he can do no wrong” Burrows. JLT is covering the middle, his job, and Burrows is outside him covering Mayenda, his job.

Burrows unnecesarily sprints inside, sucked towards the ball, leaving Mayenda completely open and JLT completely exposed to his outside to a very fast wide player. JLT unsurprisingly is beaten on the outside and Mayenda hits a superb strike.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Burrows, but his defensive naivety cost us that goal and probably promotion. This is why analysis and data matter, because the eye and mind always seek to reinforce pre-existing opinions.

Michael Lewis, who wrote Moneyball about the use of data in baseball, subsequently wrote The Undoing Project about 2 Israeli psychologists who developed evidence that, without analysis, our mind uses events to reinforce our opinions . From this work, one of them, Kahneman, got a Nobel prize for the subsequent development of behavioural economics.

It is a predominantly accepted group opinion that JLT is a weakness in the team and Burrows is a strength, and so you will mostly only find posts on here that support those opinions. That is why objective data analysis continues to be increasingly important in so many sports.

UTB & FTP!

 

[Keen Blade]

'Show me a man that has never made a mistake and I'll show you a man that has never made anything'.

Henry Ford ?

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

I'd say persisting with Cannon might be an example of not "failing fast", because he'd cost 10 million, even though it wasn't working.

…& persisting with Lundstram & persisting with Norwood, after his legs had gone, & persisting leaving Holding on the bench when our defensive stats with him on the field were superb….!!!

 

[Kryten]

In bed with the WEF and United Nations, games gone!

 

[Frank the tank]

Servigliano, as in your post a few posts above, it is easy to post on here, with a fixed agenda, reacting to events in a way to justify an opinion, without reanalysing what has actually happened.

I’m not particularly a JLT fan, but he was hung out to dry for Sunderland’s equaliser by “he can do no wrong” Burrows. JLT is covering the middle, his job, and Burrows is outside him covering Mayenda, his job.

Burrows unnecesarily sprints inside, sucked towards the ball, leaving Mayenda completely open and JLT completely exposed to his outside to a very fast wide player. JLT unsurprisingly is beaten on the outside and Mayenda hits a superb strike.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Burrows, but his defensive naivety cost us that goal and probably promotion. This is why analysis and data matter, because the eye and mind always seek to reinforce pre-existing opinions.

Michael Lewis, who wrote Moneyball about the use of data in baseball, subsequently wrote The Undoing Project about 2 Israeli psychologists who developed evidence that, without analysis, our mind uses events to reinforce our opinions . From this work, one of them, Kahneman, got a Nobel prize for the subsequent development of behavioural economics.

It is a predominantly accepted group opinion that JLT is a weakness in the team and Burrows is a strength, and so you will mostly only find posts on here that support those opinions. That is why objective data analysis continues to be increasingly important in so many sports.

UTB & FTP!

I woukd expect a more experienced player to organise the defence vocally ,ensuring that the defender nearest to him doesnt wander off and leave him exposed

That's the difference between Robinson and holding

 

[finlaytheblade]

Henry Ford ?

Our board which maybe is not complete yet! Reminds me of the film" Magnificent seven "starring Yul Brynner I think that is what it was called.
Hand picked group who all had specialities to bring to the group!

Showing my age here but ! What a great film and maybe has some relevance to where we are.
Could be exciting days ahead blades!!

 

[Servigliano]

Servigliano, as in your post a few posts above, it is easy to post on here, with a fixed agenda, reacting to events in a way to justify an opinion, without reanalysing what has actually happened.

I’m not particularly a JLT fan, but he was hung out to dry for Sunderland’s equaliser by “he can do no wrong” Burrows. JLT is covering the middle, his job, and Burrows is outside him covering Mayenda, his job.

Burrows unnecesarily sprints inside, sucked towards the ball, leaving Mayenda completely open and JLT completely exposed to his outside to a very fast wide player. JLT unsurprisingly is beaten on the outside and Mayenda hits a superb strike.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Burrows, but his defensive naivety cost us that goal and probably promotion. This is why analysis and data matter, because the eye and mind always seek to reinforce pre-existing opinions.

Michael Lewis, who wrote Moneyball about the use of data in baseball, subsequently wrote The Undoing Project about 2 Israeli psychologists who developed evidence that, without analysis, our mind uses events to reinforce our opinions . From this work, one of them, Kahneman, got a Nobel prize for the subsequent development of behavioural economics.

It is a predominantly accepted group opinion that JLT is a weakness in the team and Burrows is a strength, and so you will mostly only find posts on here that support those opinions. That is why objective data analysis continues to be increasingly important in so many sports.

UTB & FTP!

My agenda is solely aimed at what I consider may well be an over reliance on AI. I used JLT as an example of how some players excellent last ditch tackling stats in themselves may make them look better players than they really are,

I'm never influenced by "groupthink" - On the contrary I'm considered very much a contrarian - for example one who stood up against the insanity of covidclownworld.
.
If we're going to make this about JLT, my opinion is that he's actually not good enough for us, his positioning and anticipation are relatively poor and as such he has to make last ditch tackles too often. I reached that conclusion after seeing him play only a few matches for us. He has attributes as a captain but quite why Wilder played him so often instead of Holding is beyond me. That said, there are many things that go on inside a football club that us fans will never (maybe thankfully) know but those apart, for me it would have been Holding instead of JLT all day long.
In short,

 

[tyneblade]

I'm sorry if it came across as a little unkind.
From what I gather it seems AI deems success to mean, in simple terms eg for defenders, how many tackles/duels/headers are "won" in order to judge defensive capabilities. In reality it is vastly more complex. For example, just look at JLT's stats. for tackles, especially 50/50's won. I'd bet they are incredibly high. So, on the face of it he's an excellent defender? Does he have to make those tackles because he's having to cover for a defence/midfield that is poor - or is it because his anticipation/organisational skills are poor - or something else? (Sorry to have a go but just look at where he was for Sunderland's equaliser...).
AS regards midfield, how can AI stats judge how good a defensive midfielder is at for example, cutting out space - I may be wrong but how can that be measured? That aspect is surely, again about the skills of anticipation and organisation- and how can that ever be measured?
The same applies to attackers - runs off the ball, making space for others - things that most rarely appreciate, and that ultra rare and immeasurable gift - being in the right place at the right time, regardless of the quality of your own and the opponent's team.

The best defender I've seen at United was Paul McGrath. He was sadly way passed his best. He couldn't really run - his body was shot. But he was absolute class. You couldn't measure it - and I'd warrant AI would consider him an epic fail.
Next best was probably Jags. Again, all about anticipation and organisation and I can't see how AI can measure that.

I just hope we don't rely mainly on AI. Get a good scouting system to run expert eyes over whoever AI tells us to buy.

AI isn't just about picking players, it is also about understanding what you've got and getting the best out of it.

Having lived in Newcastle for 40 years I'm a fairly regular attender at St James Park. Don't judge me, regular reminders that Eddie Howe was available when Slav was appointed is punishment enough. What is clear, since Howe and his team arrived, is that they spend time, starting at 7 in the morning, on making the team work based on what they have. That results in complex in and out of possession instructions and dumping players who are competent footballers but can't comprehend and carry out the whole job.

Transforming Joelinton into a central midfield dynamo is often said to be a stroke of genius. I suspect that it was as much; some GPS stats, AI analysis and hours on the training ground.

It is interesting to me because before Howe arrived Steve Bruce's intuitive approach seemed to be "give it to Saint-Maximin, see what he can do". Sadly our use of Hamer last season reminded me of that.

Eltoukhy’s doctoral thesis combined genomics and sensor engineering. I suspect that he'll have some challenge and maybe even something to contribute on getting the best out of technology and our people.

 

[HighfieldBlade]

Soooo, does this mean the pillars on the kop are going to be taken down?!

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

My agenda is solely aimed at what I consider may well be an over reliance on AI. I used JLT as an example of how some players excellent last ditch tackling stats in themselves may make them look better players than they really are,

I'm never influenced by "groupthink" - On the contrary I'm considered very much a contrarian - for example one who stood up against the insanity of covidclownworld.
.
If we're going to make this about JLT, my opinion is that he's actually not good enough for us, his positioning and anticipation are relatively poor and as such he has to make last ditch tackles too often. I reached that conclusion after seeing him play only a few matches for us. He has attributes as a captain but quite why Wilder played him so often instead of Holding is beyond me. That said, there are many things that go on inside a football club that us fans will never (maybe thankfully) know but those apart, for me it would have been Holding instead of JLT all day long.
In short,

I agree entirely that Holding should have been selected rather than JLT. My point only referred to Sunderland’s first goal, for which JLT was not responsible, other than having less pace than a very rapid winger!

UTB & FTP!