Great stuff from a fellow Blade

[Nick Jansky]

The reason why we got relegated was a series of horrendous decisions by the board (lead by Kevin McCabe). Firstly to dismantle the team and sell of our best players (including getting rid of most of the best defence United has had for 20 years). Then it was not addressing the problem of not having enough contracted players and not backing the manager enough (despite promisies of not relying on the loan market). Then the board made a ridiculous decision of sacking a manager after 3 games, after he had the whole summer preparing. McCabe made this decision. Then it was giving the job to the wrong man. Then it was giving the job to the wrong man again.

A series of naive, poor, frankly idiotic decisions by the baord (chaired by Kevin McCabe) lead to United getting relegated.

I'm just wondering how detailed your knowledge is of the financial state of McCabe's wider business empire following the global economic collapse? Such as how much liquidity there was/is in the group, the degree of pressure being exerted by the banks to reduce debt etc? Because if the answer is, as I suspect, that you know fuck all, then surely you will agree that many of the "decisions" that you are attributing to him may well have been forced upon him. Do you really believe that he wanted to sell that defence? Do you understand that he might have had no option, regardless of what he did or didn't want to do? Have you got any idea of what life is like for a heavily indebted business at the moment? Do you know the extent of McCabe's personal liquid asset base at the moment? He has made huge mistakes in terms of appointing Robson etc, but as for the rest of it, too many people talk out of their arses about things they haven't got a clue about.

 

[Worksop II]

too many people talk out of their arses about things they haven't got a clue about.

Thats a bit harsh on McCabe ..........

 

[Nick Jansky]

Thats a bit harsh on McCabe ..........

Good old Worksop, never lets a bit of context get in the way of ignorance.

 

[beightonblade]

were in League Division 3 ..... £millions in debt ......... with a bunch of overpaid tosspots contracted to us .............
If the Blades were a property McCabe wud need to pay someone to take it off his hands !

I have no respect at all for him as far as the Blades are concerned.....he shud hang his head in shame !

Now as a property man I have shed loads of respect for him.

 

[Ollessendro]

I'm just wondering how detailed your knowledge is of the financial state of McCabe's wider business empire following the global economic collapse? Such as how much liquidity there was/is in the group, the degree of pressure being exerted by the banks to reduce debt etc? Because if the answer is, as I suspect, that you know fuck all, then surely you will agree that many of the "decisions" that you are attributing to him may well have been forced upon him. Do you really believe that he wanted to sell that defence? Do you understand that he might have had no option, regardless of what he did or didn't want to do? Have you got any idea of what life is like for a heavily indebted business at the moment? Do you know the extent of McCabe's personal liquid asset base at the moment? He has made huge mistakes in terms of appointing Robson etc, but as for the rest of it, too many people talk out of their arses about things they haven't got a clue about.

I am talking about his decisions as United chairman. Are you seriously defending the decision to sack Blackwell after 3 games. After giving him the summer to prepare, (half heatedly) backing him to sign new players and give out new contracts. Then appoint another 2 inepts managers. Other than Warnock his choice of managers has been shocking. He has made bad decision, after bad decision. I don't know a lot about his other businesses, but I know (very well) how he has ran the football club I support. That's very badly. We are in a worse state now than when he took over. Why? You might put it down to liquidity, the credit crunch and financial la de da. I put it down to very poor decision making.

 

[bricktop]

Go on then clever clogs, what would you have done differently?

 

[Nick Jansky]

Go on then clever clogs, what would you have done differently?

Good question, this will be interesting.

Except that Olle can't answer, because he hasn't got a clue about 90 per cent of what was happening behind the scenes. I agree that some awful decisions were taken, but we don't understand the context in which many of them were made.

But please, have a go Olle, entertain us!

 

[Isiah]

Not sure I understand your point NJ. Are you suggesting that Mr Mc. may have taken funds from the club to support his wider businesses? If so, do you find that acceptable?

 

[Nick Jansky]

Not sure I understand your point NJ. Are you suggesting that Mr Mc. may have taken funds from the club to support his wider businesses? If so, do you find that acceptable?

I'm suggesting that SUFC is part of a wider group that will have substantial borrowings secured against property assets, which is not a happy position to be in right now. I am further suggesting that there might well have been a requirement for the group to increase it's liquidity, in order to avoid things like breaching banking covenants. The acceptability of this is irrelevant if the course of action taken was forced, and unavoidable. There might not have been a "decision" to be taken.

 

[alcoblade]

Go on then clever clogs, what would you have done differently?

Lots of things. But my top 2 would be;

1. Not employing Bryan Robson
2. Not massively over gearing the club based on a property bubble, including trying the redevelop the ground for a WC bid that could stand no econmic scrutiny.

Neither of those require any hinsdhight whatsoever.

UTB

 

[Nick Jansky]

Lots of things. But my top 2 would be;

1. Not employing Bryan Robson
2. Not massively over gearing the club based on a property bubble, including trying the redevelop the ground for a WC bid that could stand no econmic scrutiny.

Neither of those require any hinsdhight whatsoever.

UTB

I would say that the first part of your 2nd point required a great deal of hindsight that nobody on this forum demonstrated prior to 2008. He has made some massive mistakes, appointing Robson being the biggest. But all of the stuff about him lining his pockets through his ownership of the Blades is just crap. The world changed in 2008, and we are suffering through a combination of that and McC's shit footballing decisions. But some of the things I read on here about his motives - Jesus!

 

[bricktop]

The problem was that McCabe made a couple of huge property deals in 2007, and around the same time start investing heavily in the Blades, just before the recession started.

Could the two be interlinked.

The problems on the pitch are well documented with the horrendous appointment of Bryan Robson, but i think the recession hit the clubs owner hard as well.

 

[alcoblade]

I would say that the first part of your 2nd point required a great deal of hindsight that nobody on this forum demonstrated prior to 2008. He has made some massive mistakes, appointing Robson being the biggest. But all of the stuff about him lining his pockets through his ownership of the Blades is just crap. The world changed in 2008, and we are suffering through a combination of that and McC's shit footballing decisions. But some of the things I read on here about his motives - Jesus!

I think his motives were honourable. Or more to the point, I have no reason to think otherwise. I agree many spout shite about him too. It's competence I'm questioning. The massive lending doens't require hindsight. We may disagree on the worth of borrowing, but I can tell you I'm against it in ife in general. Either way, I would love someone to make an argument for the enormous cost (tens of millions, without doubt) that would be involved in developing the ground to a 45,000 seater in the hope of hosting 3 world cup matches. That, in itself, was up front insanity.

We bought a Chinese club that burned £2M (£2M in China, FFS!) in one season alone. How much did we squander flying executives around the world to the various groups? How much did Ferencvaros fund the hundreds of thousands earned by Terry Robison. I'm beginning to speculate but there's lots of evidence of business decisions that have been piss poor and against our interests, and didn't require the level of hindsight you allude to.

UTB

 

[bricktop]

There will be plenty of what ifs.

What if we had stayed up in 2007
What if football had suddenly turned huge in the Chinese League
What if Ferencvaros got restored to former glories and had some success in the Champions League
What if England had been awarded the World Cup and we had been one of the nominated grounds.
What if the global recession hadn't happened.

There is plenty of what if's there, but at the time we was brave enough to take the gamble, but none of it paid off, and we are where are now.

 

[Nick Jansky]

I think his motives were honourable. Or more to the point, I have no reason to think otherwise. I agree many spout shite about him too. It's competence I'm questioning. The massive lending doens't require hindsight. We may disagree on the worth of borrowing, but I can tell you I'm against it in ife in general. Either way, I would love someone to make an argument for the enormous cost (tens of millions, without doubt) that would be involved in developing the ground to a 45,000 seater in the hope of hosting 3 world cup matches. That, in itself, was up front insanity.

We bought a Chinese club that burned £2M (£2M in China, FFS!) in one season alone. How much did we squander flying executives around the world to the various groups? How much did Ferencvaros fund the hundreds of thousands earned by Terry Robison. I'm beginning to speculate but there's lots of evidence of business decisions that have been piss poor and against our interests, and didn't require the level of hindsight you allude to.

UTB

I agree with most of what you say, but would point out that a lot of the overseas decisions were taken before the bubble burst, and a lot of the "smart" heavily leveraged western money was piling into China at the time. I doubt a lot of his football related decision making, which has been awful, but those doubting his motives are, at best, blinkered. I know enough about the guy (without knowing him personally) to know that he has, financially, acted in the best interests of the club within whatever constraints he has been under. But has let himself down badly with some shit footballing decisions.

 

[Ollessendro]

Go on then clever clogs, what would you have done differently?

Firstly I would have properly backed Warnock in the Premiership. I would have given him more money than what he had. Particularly in the January transfer window (though Colin did not spend well). I would also have made money available for a loan signing after Hulse got injured. Don't give me the hindsight nonsense. Loads of United-ites said after the Chelsea game that could be the turning point.

Secondly, I would have done by best to keep Warnock. But if not (and I know many thought the time was right to for him to go) I would have appointed a competent manager and absolutely not Brian Robson. Of course this then brings into questioning very heavily backing a poor manager (after poor investment when we were in the Prem).

I would not have given the job to Blackwell in the first place. But he did a reasonable job and we almost got promoted. However I would have taken his resignation after the play off final. Then I would have looked for another manager that was up to the task. I would have been honest with the fans and said 'I backed the wrong horse, we are struggling financially and we need to cut cloth .... times will be hard etc' or something to that effect.

Need I go on? I will.

I would have got rid of Blackwell the season after in May and given another manager the whole summer. Probably Speed. Allowing him time and resources to deal with players, transfers etc. IF I had have kept Blackwell, I would have backed him properly (allowing him to replace key personnel with permanent contracts) and not sacked him after a few games. Sacking him after a few games was ridiculous. After giving him the whole summer for prep and then Speed is thrown in the deep end, having previously had little or no say on contracts, signings etc.

The final thing I would have done differently was not appoint Micky Adams. Don't give me the hindsight stuff here either. I was pretty vocal in saying that we should have picked SOD. Any competent manager would have kept us up last season.

Like alco, I don't doubt that McCabe wants what his best for the club. However his decisions have been completely incompetent and his (seemingly) high levels arrogance and unwillingness to listen to others when making decisions has really cost us. Like I said before, we are now in a worse position than when he took over. That is because he has made a string of poor decisions.

 

[Isiah]

I'm suggesting that SUFC is part of a wider group that will have substantial borrowings secured against property assets, which is not a happy position to be in right now. I am further suggesting that there might well have been a requirement for the group to increase it's liquidity, in order to avoid things like breaching banking covenants. The acceptability of this is irrelevant if the course of action taken was forced, and unavoidable. There might not have been a "decision" to be taken.

Understood NJ, but it seems to me that we are assuming a very high level of at best naivety and at worst incompetence of a man who hitherto had succeeded in amassing a considerable fortune over a number of years from dealings in property and property related transactions.
I know the 2008 crash was a disaster for people like Mr Mc. but many see him solely as a benefactor with best intentions at all times who was simply a victim of bad luck. In these circumstances would it not have been prudent to ringfence the football club? It could be argued that in failing to do so, he was again simply showing a naive belief that investments in property could not go down as well as up, but it could also be argued that his wider business interests would have been at even greater risk without the inclusion of the football cashflow. I don't know which it was and with respect I suspect you don't either, though some of your comments in this thread imply that you may know more than the average fan.
My bottom line is that I do not find funding the wider Mc. empire from the football club, if that is what has been happening, acceptable and nor do I see such activities as having been unavoidable, particularly by someone who has United's best interests solely at heart.