GoalWatch - how we score goals Update

[Bergen Blade]

Leeds were very diciplined and hard working yesterday. A lot of teams that come to the Lane are, but I think Leeds' defensive work was the most impressive we've seen this season. We found it very difficult to find time on the ball, and couldn't get Duffy involved at all. The fact that we still dominated and had some nice moves shows that we do have quality, and we have a set of players that are very familiar with the way we play now.

But again we failed to score. Having made some tweaks at Brentford, it was back to Wilder's preferred line up and our mix of high tempo and patient possession football.

Recent stats show that we've struggled to break down defences when they're having men behind the ball, waiting for us. For all our possession we've just scored 3 goals in that manner (Cat C below) in our last 9 games. Once at home (vs Wigan when we were already 3-1 up).




I think we should be monitoring the above. It can suggest that teams are finding ways to stop us from scoring from possession moves. We should be proud of what we've achieved, but we also have to develop and improve.

I think we can get better at scoring category B goals. In our two last away fixtures we scored three of them, and that's great. Again, that's as many goals as category C gave us in the last 9 games.

Tweaks to consider:

• Be stronger in midfield - we can't always get away with playing a no 10 behind two strikers. A stronger midfield should help us win the ball in good areas.
• More pace up front
• More focus on punishing the opposition (urgently) when they are vulnerable
• Some more early crossing

Norwood's goal at Brentford came after a over hit cross from Stevens was half cleared. Our opposite wing back Freeman picked it up, one pass inside, direct shot - goal.

Against Leeds I noticed one similar situation where we failed to show the same kind of ruthlessness and urgency:



Against so diciplined defences we have to:

a) identify the few situations where they are vulnerable and
b) punish them immediately
​

In the above video we hesitate and mess about with it until they regain their organisation. We won't score enough goals if we keep letting teams do that.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's just a noise.

 

[blade67]

Great stuff. My view is that the first thing we need to do is apply.....

"More focus on punishing the opposition (urgently) when they are vulnerable"

 

[Rob86]

Early crosses are always the best. Seem to result in a lot of goals on highlight shows anyway.

Your overall point in right, in tight games you need quick thinking moves. Neither us nor Leeds had that on Saturday but it was a gifted goal decided the game.

 

[alcoblade]

we hesitate and mess about with it until they regain their organisation. We won't score enough goals if we keep letting teams do that.

This.

 

[wizadry]

Good post Bergs. Do me a favour though and block any twat who you believe could be an opposition scout because that’s a great insight into a lot of our games.

 

[Revolution]

There was one other moment in the game when Fleck and Stevens went down the left, both declined to cross, and no cross came in at all.

There is no purpose in keeping possession for the sake of it. This is what hurt us last season. Earlier crosses please.

 

[Dnblade]

About 4 or 5 minutes in,Billy makes a run to the near post....Stevens delayed and puts a cross in behind Billy trying to pick out someone else..a first time ball in,Billy could have had a chance on goal.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Completely agreed with the moving the ball forward quicker. I'd say if you look at the times we look vulnerable at the back it's when teams break quickly on us. We don't seem to have grasped that this is also when other teams will be vulnerable.

 

[pommpey]

We just seem to fail to get the ball to Billy or Goldy in a meaningful way - the killer pass or cross. We've seen what happens when the ball is given to Billy in the box - half a yard and he's on it and he scores ((H) v Wigan, for example)

Again, it's down to overplaying it and faffing about trying to get that opportunity or almost daring the five across the middle to commit and play the pass. When, or if the pass comes too, it's more often than not poor. I'm not sure what Wilder and Knill do in training about this final ball situation but it seems to me we need more focus.

And we need pace. Pace scares the shit out defences. I can't recall the last time we had a player with outstanding pace, one for whom as soon as he gets on the ball, you know they are going to leave their defender thinking they are going backwards.

pommpey

 

[Revolution]

My favourite bit of faffing around for the sake of it this season came in the Pigs home game.

Wednesday had their one and only shot on target just as we reached 90 mins - Fletcher's tame effort straight at Hendo. It was then announced that there were 3 or 4 mins injury time - I forget which.

Despite Wednesday backing off, it took us 65 seconds to get the ball from Hendos hands to meaningfully over the halfway line (twice we got just over and went straight back). I could not understand this lack of urgency and I still don't. It was the same on Saturday after we went behind.

 

[Harrisblade]

My favourite bit of faffing around for the sake of it this season came in the Pigs home game.

Wednesday had their one and only shot on target just as we reached 90 mins - Fletcher's tame effort straight at Hendo. It was then announced that there were 3 or 4 mins injury time - I forget which.

Despite Wednesday backing off, it took us 65 seconds to get the ball from Hendos hands to meaningfully over the halfway line (twice we got just over and went straight back). I could not understand this lack of urgency and I still don't. It was the same on Saturday after we went behind.

Except that at Brentford, after their first goal, we attacked straight from the restart and after about 30 seconds, hit the bar

 

[Revolution]

Except that at Brentford, after their first goal, we attacked straight from the restart and after about 30 seconds, hit the bar

Shame we didn't do that on Saturday, eh?

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Leeds were very diciplined and hard working yesterday. A lot of teams that come to the Lane are, but I think Leeds' defensive work was the most impressive we've seen this season. We found it very difficult to find time on the ball, and couldn't get Duffy involved at all. The fact that we still dominated and had some nice moves shows that we do have quality, and we have a set of players that are very familiar with the way we play now.

But again we failed to score. Having made some tweaks at Brentford, it was back to Wilder's preferred line up and our mix of high tempo and patient possession football.

Recent stats show that we've struggled to break down defences when they're having men behind the ball, waiting for us. For all our possession we've just scored 3 goals in that manner (Cat C below) in our last 9 games. Once at home (vs Wigan when we were already 3-1 up).


View attachment 46532

I think we should be monitoring the above. It can suggest that teams are finding ways to stop us from scoring from possession moves. We should be proud of what we've achieved, but we also have to develop and improve.

I think we can get better at scoring category B goals. In our two last away fixtures we scored three of them, and that's great. Again, that's as many goals as category C gave us in the last 9 games.

Tweaks to consider:

• Be stronger in midfield - we can't always get away with playing a no 10 behind two strikers. A stronger midfield should help us win the ball in good areas.
• More pace up front
• More focus on punishing the opposition (urgently) when they are vulnerable
• Some more early crossing

Norwood's goal at Brentford came after a over hit cross from Stevens was half cleared. Our opposite wing back Freeman picked it up, one pass inside, direct shot - goal.

Against Leeds I noticed one similar situation where we failed to show the same kind of ruthlessness and urgency:



Against so diciplined defences we have to:

a) identify the few situations where they are vulnerable and
b) punish them immediately
​

In the above video we hesitate and mess about with it until they regain their organisation. We won't score enough goals if we keep letting teams do that.

I like your analysis because it's not just about stats, which can be misleading, or manipulated to suit an argument, but it demonstrates by video example where we are missing opportunities to improve.

I posted several weeks ago now, something along the lines of "How do you say something without it sounding ungrateful?" It was raising the same concerns, not as eloquently or descriptively as you have done, but the same points were observed.

The passing is great (mostly), the possession football usually sees that we dominate teams, but I described it as "mechanical". It's like a machine in so much as it does things the same way over and over again. It's slick, it's efficient, it's precision oriented, but it's repetitive and the machine only seems to work in one way and at one speed.

Totally agree that we need more pace up front - and that's why I've quite enjoyed seeing Washington get a go lately, and am still hopeful that Johnson will add something too in that department. And I would like to see us break quicker and get the early ball into the box quicker - assuming we've got players in the box to hit. Which is not always the case.

 

[Harrisblade]

Shame we didn't do that on Saturday, eh?

Probably to do with the quality of the opposition
But, as others have said, you have to remember that whatever we WANT to do, our opponents are trying just as hard to stop us.
To quote Field Marshal Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke
"No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."

 

[I should coco]

To quote Field Marshal Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke
"No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."

Or in a similar vein, to quote Mike Tyson:
"Everyone has a plan, until I punch them in the face'

 

[finlaytheblade]

Leeds were very diciplined and hard working yesterday. A lot of teams that come to the Lane are, but I think Leeds' defensive work was the most impressive we've seen this season. We found it very difficult to find time on the ball, and couldn't get Duffy involved at all. The fact that we still dominated and had some nice moves shows that we do have quality, and we have a set of players that are very familiar with the way we play now.

But again we failed to score. Having made some tweaks at Brentford, it was back to Wilder's preferred line up and our mix of high tempo and patient possession football.

Recent stats show that we've struggled to break down defences when they're having men behind the ball, waiting for us. For all our possession we've just scored 3 goals in that manner (Cat C below) in our last 9 games. Once at home (vs Wigan when we were already 3-1 up).


View attachment 46532

I think we should be monitoring the above. It can suggest that teams are finding ways to stop us from scoring from possession moves. We should be proud of what we've achieved, but we also have to develop and improve.

I think we can get better at scoring category B goals. In our two last away fixtures we scored three of them, and that's great. Again, that's as many goals as category C gave us in the last 9 games.

Tweaks to consider:

• Be stronger in midfield - we can't always get away with playing a no 10 behind two strikers. A stronger midfield should help us win the ball in good areas.
• More pace up front
• More focus on punishing the opposition (urgently) when they are vulnerable
• Some more early crossing

Norwood's goal at Brentford came after a over hit cross from Stevens was half cleared. Our opposite wing back Freeman picked it up, one pass inside, direct shot - goal.

Against Leeds I noticed one similar situation where we failed to show the same kind of ruthlessness and urgency:



Against so diciplined defences we have to:

a) identify the few situations where they are vulnerable and
b) punish them immediately
​

In the above video we hesitate and mess about with it until they regain their organisation. We won't score enough goals if we keep letting teams do that.

We rely too much on overloading from the flanks ,teams regroup and set there stall .out to defend the crosses if they come,need to have more down the middle to stretch defences.when teams are set to counter act our flanks a switch inside will upset this strategy just need someone with the nous to go at the centre backs and shoot rather than always look for the pass wide.
Norwood attacked the ball at Brent Ford we need more of that ,shooting from tweeting yards is always dangerous with the aid of deflectons very often wrong footing the goalie.
Not saying we shoot on sight but a dig from anywhere around the 18 yes is dangerous

 

[Revolution]

Probably to do with the quality of the opposition
But, as others have said, you have to remember that whatever we WANT to do, our opponents are trying just as hard to stop us.
To quote Field Marshal Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke
"No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."

Hence you need an alternative, rather than trying the same thing over and over again when it doesn't work.

 

[finlaytheblade]

We rely too much on overloading from the flanks ,teams regroup and set there stall .out to defend the crosses if they come,need to have more down the middle to stretch defences.when teams are set to counter act our flanks a switch inside will upset this strategy just need someone with the nous to go at the centre backs and shoot rather than always look for the pass wide.
Norwood attacked the ball at Brent Ford we need more of that ,shooting from tweeting yards is always dangerous with the aid of deflectons very often wrong footing the goalie.
Not saying we shoot on sight but a dig from anywhere around the 18 yes is dangerous

My word check does make a fool of me

 

[nopigfansintown]

I think Swansea did the best job on us tactically. They stopped us getting form A to C (our box to their box) very effectively whilst leaving two forward players between our centre backs and wide players - giving them a numerical advantage on the counter attack. These players very rarely came back in defensive areas, but pressed out of possession and then stayed high up the pitch - completely negating the advantage of ovelapping centre halves: the risk vs reward became much more high than in any other game. Rotherham did a similar thing, but with a more conventional 4-5-1 counter attacking system with traditional wingers exploiting the space behind (particularly on our right side). Bielsa failed to stop United getting from A to C with a numerical advantage, and thus did not win the game from a tactical standpoint. The quality of our play in the final third once more let us down and cost us the game. Bielsa wasn't the pragmatist: he followed conventional methods which depended utterly on us being poor in the final third.He was beholden to our ineptitude in this aspect.
The tactical take away from your clip: For me it shows endemic problems with United's attacking play: The build up is too slow despite an extremely rare bit of wing play from a United player ( Sharp) that substantially sped up the game.. Sharp is in a wide position when it should be either Mcgoldrick or Duffy. One has to run off of Sharp (who remains within the width of the goal) whilst the other runs the channels.By the time the first ball comes in we should have three or four players in the sixteen yard box with a realistic chance of scoring a goal. If not, United are normally forced back or lateral until the numbers are in the box to prevent an overload - or a counter attack happens. Our overload is far too slow in arriving.This is a huge issue when we play Mcgoldrick and Duffy, as they both want to congest central areas 20-50 yards from goal without breaking the lines, making third man runs. All an opposition team has to do is play a low block with numbers in the central areas and force us wide where they know we don't have the height to threaten from wide; or, alternatively, play a high line with numbers in the centre knowing we don't have the pace or numbers in the final third to threaten them before reinforcements arrive (no third man runs) . Whilst I've only seen one a few teams pragmatically prevent the efficacy of the overlapping centre backs; this block helps to congest these areas and lesson the impact.The jury is very much still out on Washington, but I think we've already seen the impact that pace, running the channels, and having an extra player in the box can have during the last two games: more targets from out wide; a counter attacking threat; somebody who will run the channels; an increased difficulty in playing the high line for the opposition; less congested central areas.
I should add that the clip emphasises why Fleck is increasingly looking a spare part. If Mcgoldrick and Duffy are taking the ball off of Norwood and either driving forward or passing it forward - what is Fleck's job? How many overloads on the left side did you see where Fleck hits one of his trademark left foot through balls/crosses? Exactly.

 

[Bergen Blade]

There was one other moment in the game when Fleck and Stevens went down the left, both declined to cross, and no cross came in at all.

There is no purpose in keeping possession for the sake of it. This is what hurt us last season. Earlier crosses please.

Yes, a mix would be good. If we can't get through teams, aerial strength is something to consider as well.

But I'd like to stress that most of the time we do pass with a purpose, and that's why I like the clip in the OP. It shows that. It shows how good we can be on the ball.

Leeds' players run like madmen chasing us while our players are roaming around, swapping positions to pull them out of position and create openings. Baldock can be seen making a backwards central run (!), bringing a player with him, while Basham (who did great at the start of the move) is drawing the attention of their left wing back out wide. This means there's room for Sharp to run out wide. He takes the centre half with him and shows his underrated ability of getting crosses into the box.

In short we do really well to create an opening, and although there's nobody on the end of the cross (no cat C goal) we do get a fabulous second opportunity (to score a cat B goal) as the ball falls to Stevens, with two targets moving into the box and the Leeds defence unable to keep up. The fact that we don't identify this as a great opportunity to cross first time, shows that we have something to work on. This is more about awareness and tactical choices than technical or physical ability, so it's definitely something that I think we're capable of doing better as well, even without a change of personell.

 

[Geordie Blade]

There is no purpose in keeping possession for the sake of it. This is what hurt us last season. Earlier crosses please.

I could not understand this lack of urgency and I still don't. It was the same on Saturday after we went behind.

First off, I completely agree about the quicker crosses. The way I see it, putting in an early cross probably means a 50%-50% chance of it getting to a United player. However, if it gets there, it probably creates a very good chance. Even if it goes to the opposition, they probably still only half clear it, as they'll be taken by surprise. By delaying until they can find a less risky option, they probably increase the chance to find a United player (say to 75%) but, the player they'll find will now be marked closely and the ball will be played more 'safely' rather than a dangerous whip into the box. Quicker crosses have a better percentage return.

Secondly, though, I'll defend the slow build up from the back. Counter attacking football it great, because the other team are usually out of position and if you have pace you can take advantage. The problem is that the window of opportunity is very small. If you don't pounce within two or three seconds (or less), then the chance is usually gone. Modern football is very chess like, in that teams like to move the ball careful around, not necessarily looking to go forward, but to wait until the opposition drops their guard, and someone slips out of position. Watch the times that a back two (or three) will pass the ball between them, letting an opposition striker chase the ball backwards and forwards. Eventually, the striker gets fed up and doesn't chase. In that split second, the defender takes the ball forward, drawing an opposition midfield towards him (out of position). Then, everything suddenly opens up and some smart passing will move the ball to where you have an extra man.

The key is to do the first bit patiently, and let the opposition blink first (you need clever players to know when to time the move forwards). If you go forwards too quickly (after the counter attack opportunity has been missed), then the other team will be well set and it's hard to break it down. You'll run into trouble too easily. But playing patiently might just undo them. Too many teams (including us) get drawn into going forwards at the wrong moment, and turn over possession way too easily.

 

[Blades Analytics]

Leeds were very diciplined and hard working yesterday. A lot of teams that come to the Lane are, but I think Leeds' defensive work was the most impressive we've seen this season. We found it very difficult to find time on the ball, and couldn't get Duffy involved at all. The fact that we still dominated and had some nice moves shows that we do have quality, and we have a set of players that are very familiar with the way we play now.

But again we failed to score. Having made some tweaks at Brentford, it was back to Wilder's preferred line up and our mix of high tempo and patient possession football.

Recent stats show that we've struggled to break down defences when they're having men behind the ball, waiting for us. For all our possession we've just scored 3 goals in that manner (Cat C below) in our last 9 games. Once at home (vs Wigan when we were already 3-1 up).


View attachment 46532

I think we should be monitoring the above. It can suggest that teams are finding ways to stop us from scoring from possession moves. We should be proud of what we've achieved, but we also have to develop and improve.

I think we can get better at scoring category B goals. In our two last away fixtures we scored three of them, and that's great. Again, that's as many goals as category C gave us in the last 9 games.

Tweaks to consider:

• Be stronger in midfield - we can't always get away with playing a no 10 behind two strikers. A stronger midfield should help us win the ball in good areas.
• More pace up front
• More focus on punishing the opposition (urgently) when they are vulnerable
• Some more early crossing

Norwood's goal at Brentford came after a over hit cross from Stevens was half cleared. Our opposite wing back Freeman picked it up, one pass inside, direct shot - goal.

Against Leeds I noticed one similar situation where we failed to show the same kind of ruthlessness and urgency:



Against so diciplined defences we have to:

a) identify the few situations where they are vulnerable and
b) punish them immediately
​

In the above video we hesitate and mess about with it until they regain their organisation. We won't score enough goals if we keep letting teams do that.

Brilliant this mate. Outstanding stuff.

Your nailed on too. Think of the Blackburn goal from sharp as a great example of early cross.

Also got a video clip of lack of runs in behind from fwds due to the need for them to show for feet to help build up but it's killing opportunities for through balls, playing into space.

You've highlighted the main issue though. I over passing itself is an issue but not the issue, its the fact we struggle to break down organised and compact defences.

I won't bother with stats as this thread is bang on as it is but my only caveat to any of this is fact we have missed so many big chances at key stages in games and easy chances at that. If we'd scored those chances and got those draws and wins we wouldn't be sat here discussing a ""Problem"

There's another tactical clip too regards to Fleck and his positioning, he's picking up so many non dangerous areas that he's making it impossible for him to influence a game. Mcgoldrick too involved in far too many areas that are non dangerous. We are compacting the pitch and that's why they over play so much, to allow all players to join and be up with speed of play. The lauded Centre backs joining the attack should be a supplement not our main form of attack which it seems to have become.

 

[Dnblade]

About 4 or 5 minutes in,Billy makes a run to the near post....Stevens delayed and puts a cross in behind Billy trying to pick out someone else..a first time ball in,Billy could have had a chance on goal.

This is it,early in the game...Billy makes a run to the near post...loads of space to whip it in between keeper and defense or towards near post for Billy...Ends delays and takes it on a few yards before cutting it back for McG who's snuffed out...Maybe could have been a chance on goal if he whips it in early...apologies for the crap pic.

 

[Bergen Blade]

This is it,early in the game...Billy makes a run to the near post...loads of space to whip it in between keeper and defense or towards near post for Billy...Ends delays and takes it on a few yards before cutting it back for McG who's snuffed out...Maybe could have been a chance on goal if he whips it in early...apologies for the crap pic.
View attachment 46554

Yes, good one. On that occasion we won back possession twice in quick succession, latterly by Basham.