Football as a whole......

[Bladesway]

NRS'ed it in summer. Thought I'd miss it. Haven't.

In general, I've been "off" football in general for years, mainly because of its all pervasiveness over everything in life and the sheer pointlessness of it all. Obscene wealth, ridiculous people, incompetant buffoons and the unstinting persuit of money. It used to exist purely for people arsed enough to click turnstiles. It was never about profit, acquisition, marketing, branding etc etc.

I'm on the outside looking in, and finding myself wondering wtf it was that captivated me for 40 years.

Yep, been off it for a few years now. Relegation from That Premiership pretty much made me realise it wasn't all that. The hype, the 37 different angles for every replay, the continuous 24/7 coverage is just too much.

Sky have cricket nailed on. Cricket thrives on the angles and the cameras, Bumble, Botham et all are supreme at what they do. I will get up early to watch the cricket, I will stay up late to watch the cricket. I'm afraid football in England leaves me cold these days.

 

[Paulus]

OK then lots of us can see why we are falling out of love with the game, what three things would you want to see happen to move us back in the right direction. For me:
1. Ticket prices have to come down, when I was a kid a ticket on the kop was roughly the price of a cinema ticket. In todays terms £15 for the kop would be about as high as it should be, that would still buy a couple of cinema tickets mind.
2. Players earnings must be cut in order to allow 1 to happen, that probably means a salary cap based on a % of gate earnings.
3. Virtually all player loans should be banned, clubs could borrow a goalie on a match by match basis if they had no fit goalie over 18 available to play, everything else banned. I've really got a bee in my bonnet about player loans. Players turning up, largely for their own benefit, playing a few games and pissing off again, I'm sorry, it devalues the whole basis of supporting a team. The loan system plays completely into the hands of the rich clubs because they can sign up any youngster with a modicum of talent on the promise that they can develop with them and be loaned out in order to gain experience. Would we have lost the two Kyles if they had known they would be signing to a club where they had virtually no chance of playing a game for the next 3 years?

 

[super_pig]

must admit i don't have a crisis of conscience if i miss a game these days.. i think hoofwell pushed my loyalty to the absolute limit with the garbage he was serving up.. ok it may not be much better under speedo but he's only been here ten minutes.. i'm falling out of love with the game in general.. i cancelled my sky sports subscription because the thought of stephen quinn being paid all of that money just annoyed the crap out of me.. it is the same every week.. man utd get last minute penalty .. team playing top four club next week gets best player sent off so he misses match.. it's almost predictable.. in fact if i'm in a bad mood i'd say there was cheating going on..i agree we need a more american system where the best players go to the worst teams.. the transfer window caused a lot of this hassle.. big teams will buy loads of young lads and keep them in mothballs in case they need them because if they have an injury crisis they can't go and get replacements.. plus all of this diving and handbag fights (they never get in a 'proper' punch up do they?.. it's more like a playground fight.. i mean.. get on with it.. andy cole once did.. that was the only time AFAIR).. and the shepherding the ball out.. i could go on.. i saw the program about german football and wished..

 

[Fiery Blade]

must admit i don't have a crisis of conscience if i miss a game these days.. i think hoofwell pushed my loyalty to the absolute limit with the garbage he was serving up.. ok it may not be much better under speedo but he's only been here ten minutes.. i'm falling out of love with the game in general.. i cancelled my sky sports subscription because the thought of stephen quinn being paid all of that money just annoyed the crap out of me.. it is the same every week.. man utd get last minute penalty .. team playing top four club next week gets best player sent off so he misses match.. it's almost predictable.. in fact if i'm in a bad mood i'd say there was cheating going on..i agree we need a more american system where the best players go to the worst teams.. the transfer window caused a lot of this hassle.. big teams will buy loads of young lads and keep them in mothballs in case they need them because if they have an injury crisis they can't go and get replacements.. plus all of this diving and handbag fights (they never get in a 'proper' punch up do they?.. it's more like a playground fight.. i mean.. get on with it.. andy cole once did.. that was the only time AFAIR).. and the shepherding the ball out.. i could go on.. i saw the program about german football and wished..

Excellent post SP!
I cannot believe the arrogance of our media when We didn't get the World Cup - They were talking about conspiracy theories, cheating etc etc How Dare FIFA give the World CUp to Russia and Qatar and not England!
We in the UK are so much up our own arses when it comes to football -We import 90% of our Premier League players and wonder why our international side is crap!
We import 75% of Premier League managers and then wonder why we cannot find an Englishman to manage England!
Our referees are rubbish yet any manager dares to comment and he's fined and banished to the stand!
I could go on and on!
I only keep Sky for the cricket - and we're not too bad at that are we?

 

[Bladesway]

Agree with a lot of the above. For me there is a simple system that could assist in making the Premiership a fairer place for all. It will never happen but you can hope. See what you think to this:-

Each team is allowed a "wage pot" every week. Lets say for arguments sake that wage pot is £500k per week. From that wage pot you can pay players who start the game only. Subs and squad fillers are allowed a maximum wage cap of £10k per week. Lets face it, anyone can live off that sort of money. So in effect, your Rooneys can still earn £150k per week but it is out of the team pot and that means that the rest of the team get paid less each.

This also stops the feigning of injuries as everyone will want to start the game to ensure they get their pay. It also means that teams like Chelsea are going to struggle to hoard players just to stop other teams getting them. Players are going to want to play for the shirt because it directly benefits them in the money they earn. Imagine the exodus of players from Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal et al through the rest of the Premiership. Younger players may stay at their existing clubs because they aren't going to be going to the Premier League to sit in the reserves.

It is only a small part of the problem but until we grasp the nettle the sport will only get worse. I have no problem with people earning big bucks if they are that good (Messi, Xavi, Ronaldo etc) but lets make sure they earn it rather than just sit in the stands dripping with gold.

I would also implement the 4 foreigners in any first team squad. If we want our game to improve and as such our international team then (like cricket has done with central contracts) we have to put country before club. Problem you have is that the Premiership is a closed shop and something like that is never going to happen. But you can dream for nowt.

Finally, genuinely injured players still get a wage they can easily live off but perhaps they have to put their pennies away for a rainy day like the rest of us.

 

[super_pig]

great post.. it'll never happen like.. but great post nontheless

 

[Grecian2000]

Agree with a lot of the above. For me there is a simple system that could assist in making the Premiership a fairer place for all. It will never happen but you can hope. See what you think to this:-

Each team is allowed a "wage pot" every week. Lets say for arguments sake that wage pot is £500k per week. From that wage pot you can pay players who start the game only. Subs and squad fillers are allowed a maximum wage cap of £10k per week. Lets face it, anyone can live off that sort of money. So in effect, your Rooneys can still earn £150k per week but it is out of the team pot and that means that the rest of the team get paid less each.

This also stops the feigning of injuries as everyone will want to start the game to ensure they get their pay. It also means that teams like Chelsea are going to struggle to hoard players just to stop other teams getting them. Players are going to want to play for the shirt because it directly benefits them in the money they earn. Imagine the exodus of players from Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal et al through the rest of the Premiership. Younger players may stay at their existing clubs because they aren't going to be going to the Premier League to sit in the reserves.

It is only a small part of the problem but until we grasp the nettle the sport will only get worse. I have no problem with people earning big bucks if they are that good (Messi, Xavi, Ronaldo etc) but lets make sure they earn it rather than just sit in the stands dripping with gold.

I would also implement the 4 foreigners in any first team squad. If we want our game to improve and as such our international team then (like cricket has done with central contracts) we have to put country before club. Problem you have is that the Premiership is a closed shop and something like that is never going to happen. But you can dream for nowt.

Finally, genuinely injured players still get a wage they can easily live off but perhaps they have to put their pennies away for a rainy day like the rest of us.

Cracking post.

Just some severe tinkering with the Loan system to add and we have our game back.

 

[raul]

Along the lines of the way slavery was severely tinkered with I hope?

 

[Tuns]

Although I agree with a lot that has been written in this thread it seems as though it is written by the 20-45 year old age group, where we suddenly realise that we are getting on a bit and things have moved on and we don't like it.

I was talking to a mate the other day about the time when I started supporting SUFC. It was in the old 4th division and it was great fun. Huge away support, (highlighted by a banner at Aldershot's ground'Welcome to SUFC, the biggest supported away club in the division) There was terracing, there was atmosphere, it was cheap, we won a lot. We had Edwards, Morris, Stan the Man, Conroy and then the start of Deane, Agana. But then as JD said, we were treated like scum, there was trouble and the quality of stadiums was very poor.

Originally Sky changed all of this for the better and I think most people saw them as a positive thing at the start. Unfortunately everyone got greedy. Along came Abrahmovic, salaries went out of the roof, I believe a lot of this was agents spreading stories about what their clients earns. Clubs then thinking that they had to pay 100k pw as everyone else was and before you know it you have kids on their first contract earning 30k pw and are set up for life before they have even done a thing. Give an 18 year old that sort of money and you are asking for trouble.

What would get me going to football reguarly again, if I lived in the UK is safe terracing for £10-£15. I would rather pay this then pay 20-30 for a cramped seat where everyone is getting up and down the whole time. The atmosphere would come back, I believe the fans would come back and we could increase our capacity, if need be without having to expand the Kop in any great way. I really don't understand why we can't do this. They can can in other European countries. there has been one catastrophe in recent times, but with safe terracing this risk could be eliminated.

It is partly an age thing. If I was 10 years old now then my expectations of United would be to never win anything so maybe I'd be far more content with the way things are now.

But when I was a kid we could still dream of winning cups and even winning Division One. The Fourth Division season was one of the most optimistic I've ever had as a Blade - we thought we could go on to do anything.

Sky and greed have actually taken the dreams and hopes away from many fans and clubs and with that the heart and passion has gone too.

Not every club can win everything but it wasn't that long ago that a Norwich or even a Wednesday could challenge for the title.

Now I wonder what the point of an Everton, Newcastle, Villa, Blackburn, Bolton etc is. Just tread water in the hope a money man comes in.

 

[super_pig]

>Along the lines of the way slavery was severely tinkered with I hope?
you mean democracy then.. the best thing that could happen IMHO is if the big four shoved off and joined a euro league, taking all of the glory hunters, divers, prima donna's and restauranteurs with them and we can get back to proper full contact, stand on the terraces working class football.. with pies..

 

[JohnDenver]

>Along the lines of the way slavery was severely tinkered with I hope?
you mean democracy then.. the best thing that could happen IMHO is if the big four shoved off and joined a euro league, taking all of the glory hunters, divers, prima donna's and restauranteurs with them and we can get back to proper full contact, stand on the terraces working class football.. with pies..

Come the revolution would we still be allowed gastro pubs? It's a grey area.

 

[Bladesway]

Cracking post.

Just some severe tinkering with the Loan system to add and we have our game back.

Stop it. You can't loan players. You either play with what you have or you sell/buy your players to/from someone else. Thing is, you will be able to afford these players because you won't have to shell our shedloads on wages. You keep the wages under control and you keep the game within the grasp of the majority.

If you have a bad run of luck on goalkeepers then you buy another one. The surpluss of players on the open market would mean you can always get the player and know you don't have to shell out more than £10k per week.

 

[Grecian2000]

I wouldn't go that far.

I can see the benefit of allowing a restricted version.

Maximum FOUR per season, for no more than a month and never more than one loanee in the team at a time. You could only loan from a division above (i.e. no loans in the top division and no loans within your own division).
This would allow for injury crisis to be overcome and players to be able to gain fitness. It would also allow supporters of lower division teams to see better players on occasion without the wholesale reliance on them.

 

[Eskimo]

Blah blah. I love watching United and still get the same buzz walking in to Bramall Lane as as I did 45 years ago. I never expected then to see United at Wembley to be in semi finals, to be better than Wednesday and Leeds, to have a better stadium than Hillsborough. But I have. A lot has changed in this time but a great deal has not:

A few top teams dominated the league then and now

Clubs are often owned by dodgy rich men

Footballers are often bad lads but like the rest of us seek to earn as much as possible

Sheffield United sell their best players and generally hover around in the second tier

Referees are crap


Like all of us I'm dissapointed now we got back to the promised land and blew it/ were shafted, very disappointed indeed. But you revise your expectatioins and look forward to a better future, young players coming through, the next Currie, Deane, Jags etc and you never know - one day.

On the other hand I could get excited watching the racing from Aintree on saturday, each to their own. Supporters come and go, but my guess is that you who can't be bothered attending now but still choose to hang around on sites like this will be the first in the queue when/if the better times arrive, probably complaining about queues for tickets. Hmm - might judt go to Barnsley on Saturday!

 

[Bladesway]

I wouldn't go that far.

I can see the benefit of allowing a restricted version.

Maximum FOUR per season, for no more than a month and never more than one loanee in the team at a time. You could only loan from a division above (i.e. no loans in the top division and no loans within your own division).
This would allow for injury crisis to be overcome and players to be able to gain fitness. It would also allow supporters of lower division teams to see better players on occasion without the wholesale reliance on them.

Don't disagree but you could say supporters of lower division teams will see better players because they will be more evenly spread. This would be due to the fact that Chelsea et al won't have 50 players in their squad.

 

[Tuns]

Can't agreeEskimo.

As a kid of the 70s I expected that one day in my life I would see United win a cup at least and even have a season or two challenging at the top of the league. I expected far better than a few semi finals in my lifetime as did every Blade I knew.

We haven't achieved anything of note in my life - except the fourth division championship! - and those that settle for semi finals and being better than Wednesday and Leeds (not because we are achieving but because they have been rubbish) are part of the reason we are the most under-achieving club of our size in the country.

Ipswich, Forest, Norwich etc showed it could be done then but not now. It's just not true to say it's the same now as it was then. There was not a big four who finished top four every year and could only be challenged is someone spent £200m.

Good coaching, good scouting, good management etc could lead to major success. And I really do think managers and players tended to hang around at their clubs longer and show a bit more loyalty which meant the fans could relate to players in a way that we don't any more.

I gave up my ST this season after a life comitted to the Blades.

I've seen worse than this both on and off the pitch at the Lane but the whole point of what many are saying is that things have changed fundamentally and even if United do start winning a few games the fans won't come flooding back cos there is something wrong with football let alone United.

 

[Grecian2000]

Blah blah. I love watching United and still get the same buzz walking in to Bramall Lane as as I did 45 years ago. I never expected then to see United at Wembley to be in semi finals, to be better than Wednesday and Leeds, to have a better stadium than Hillsborough.

Blah, blah is about the one thing I agree with in that post.

However as for the first paragraph as quoted.
45 years ago (1965) we were as good and often better than both Leeds (the Dirty Leeds Revie era hadn't kicked in) and Wednesday. We had been in a semi final only 4 years previously (we lost of course) so for you never to have expected us to be in a semi or better than the hated two makes your expectations unbelieveably low. As for Wembley, if the game was still as it was then (i.e. you played at Wembley if you made the FA Cup final) then we still wouldn't have played there to this day.

 

[Eskimo]

There was not a big four who finished top four every year ??
45 years ago (1965) we were as good and often better than both Leeds (the Dirty Leeds Revie era hadn't kicked in ??

Ok so here are the League Champions and runners up from 1964 to 1970 which suggests to me that a few clubs dominated then as now. Leeds record too. I'd forgotten we finished higher than Wednesday in 66 and 67 (just) though. More recently we have been consistently better than both Leeds and Wednesday for a few years which never happened, as I recall from maybe 1964 to around the time Sir Neil took us up.
1964 Liverpool, Manchester United
1965 Manchester United, Leeds United
1966 Liverpool Leeds United
1967 Manchester United Nottingham Forest
1968 Manchester City (2) Manchester United )
1968–69 Leeds United, Liverpool
1969–70 Everton (7) Leeds United


And doesn't the record of Bolton, Blackpool, Stoke, and maybe Blackburn, Wigan, Fulham suggest smaller clubs can be successful? We have underachieved, we are disappointed but don't give up on the dream!!

 

[Revolution]

Ok so here are the League Champions and runners up from 1964 to 1970 which suggests to me that a few clubs dominated then as now.

No, the group of clubs who can win a trophy has shrunk dramatically in the last 50 years.


Number of different teams who won the league...

between 1961 and 1970 - 7
between 1971 and 1980 - 5
between 1981 and 1990 - 4
between 1991 and 2000 - 4
between 2001 and 2010 - 3

Number of different teams who won the Cup...

between 1961 and 1970 - 8
between 1971 and 1980 - 8
between 1981 and 1990 - 6
between 1991 and 2000 - 6
between 2001 and 2010 - 5

Your list has 5 different teams winning the league in 5 years. That amount of variety last occurred in 1970 to 1974.

 

[Eskimo]

AccorNumber of different teams who won the league...

between 1961 and 1970 - 7
between 1971 and 1980 - 5
between 1981 and 1990 - 4
between 1991 and 2000 - 4
between 2001 and 2010 - 3

ding to your figures, in the last 40 years the number of different teams wonthe league by decade has shrunk dramatically by 2 - from five to three thats all.