Fleetwood 1 United 1 - report

[Pinchy]

Ah, if only football was that straight forward.

Were you at the game Pinchy? Seriously and if so how did you rate the performance especially the second half. Just wondering.

We were slightly better than them first half. They were slightly better than us second half bt I repeat they had the best chances. It is all subjective. We had two or three weak shots on target (Flynn, Wallace and O'Grady) that keeper saved easier. They had two or three shots just past the post or just over with Howard well beaten; certainly on two.

So it is subjective who actually got closer. As for the 19 shots on target; other than Murphy's effort the keeper pushed away (maybe via the post); I am not sure of many others outside the goal that were looked remotely like going in and most were straight at the keeper.

I was there and I saw with my own eyes the home side pressing and looking more likely to win than us for the closing 15 minutes (other than the late Cuvelier effort over). Still you know better than me based on BBC stats on what happened at the game?

I'll leave you with a stat as you like them so much. Out of the top 5; we have conceded more than any of the teams and also scored less than all of them. So what quite the above stats mean in terms of if we cannot stop conceding and don't score. There is only one stat that counts and that is how many goals you concede and how many you let in.

.....none of which has anything to do with 'good fortune' as I predicted.

 

[Bergen Blade]

.....none of which has anything to do with 'good fortune' as I predicted.

What is 'good fortune' if not examples of big chances that were just missed by the opposition team?

This?



Is the above us, by the way?

 

[Pinchy]

What is 'good fortune' if not examples of big chances that were just missed by the opposition team?

This?



Is the above us, by the way?

It's dreadful finishing. Nothing at all to do with good fortune.

 

[Bergen Blade]

It's dreadful finishing. Nothing at all to do with good fortune.

Howard made a couple of second half saves where he gave a rebound and the ball very nearly fell nicely to one of their players, who would have had an open net on each occasion. Howard was just happy to stop the shots and didn't quite know where the rebounds went. With a slightly different spin on the ball this may have meant two conceded goals for us. Of course good fortune, luck and coincidences are a part of football. Wind and mud have decided many football matches.

 

[Pinchy]

Howard made a couple of second half saves where he gave a rebound and the ball very nearly fell nicely to one of their players, who would have had an open net on each occasion. Howard was just happy to stop the shots and didn't quite know where the rebounds went. With a slightly different spin on the ball this may have meant two conceded goals for us. Of course good fortune, luck and coincidences are a part of football. Wind and mud have decided many football matches.

A formidable strike partnership, those two!

 

[DazBlade88]

Wondered what he booked McEveley for? Smacking the ball away or trying to handball it as it went into the net? Maybe a combination of both.

It was the handball.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

pommpey I swing between optimistic and downbeat when it comes to United. I guess the best way to describe it is optimism, tinged with the painful realisation that crushing disappointment is only just around the corner.

That said, I think the answer to your question lies in the money which isn't on there for transfer fees. What are the relative wages of the incoming and outgoing players? Part of the reason for Collins' exile may well be that he is one of the highest earners left at the club, given that only he and Doyle were senior players in our last Championship season. Clough has been allowed to expand the squad by 10 players (Cuvelier wears number 34; we started again at 1 with squad numbers this season) and working on £2,500 per week as an average takes us to £1,300,000 extra in pay per year - that's the Maguire money gone before we worry ourselves with paying signing on fees, agents' fees and bonuses.

The Maguire money has gone. It's gone on paying average players above average wages for the division which is the story of every fucking season since 2005/06. For some reason, I and countless others seem to think that every new season will somehow be different.

The problem isn't the board. It isn't the manager. It's not even really the players. The problem is the decision making at the Lane is fucking awful.

I'm guessing wildly at the numbers here but these are players currently picking up a wage at United while doing (well, being asked to do) nothing towards our foundering attempts to get out of this backwater division:

Long (£1,500 per week, 0 league apps)
Turner (£1,500 per week, 0 league apps)
Butler (£5,000 per week, 0 league apps)
Porter (£1,000 per week, 0+1 league apps)
McGinn (£3,000 per week, 0 league apps)
Collins (£5,000 per week, 8 league apps (none since September))

Add in McCarthy - whatever we're paying him is too much. Not because he's a bad defender; more because we've found that the best centre half at the club is Basham but in order to accommodate McCarthy, we're playing him in central midfield. Which, incidentally, is where we have 9 senior players in the squad. NINE central midfielders.

We never learn.

UTB

As discussed here:-

http://www.s24su.com/forum/index.ph...addressed-in-january.37252/page-2#post-684978

We only have around 21 "Senior" players on the wage bill, the rest are 21 or under and don't count towards SCMP.
Of those 21 players, four are either injured or recovering from injury.
We don't have a huge squad unless you start including all the "kids"
I don't think we should include them when he's being asked to develop players for the future and get promotion.

 

[Balham]

As discussed here:-

http://www.s24su.com/forum/index.ph...addressed-in-january.37252/page-2#post-684978

We only have around 21 "Senior" players on the wage bill, the rest are 21 or under and don't count towards SCMP.
Of those 21 players, four are either injured or recovering from injury.
We don't have a huge squad unless you start including all the "kids"
I don't think we should include them when he's being asked to develop players for the future and get promotion.

Just because players don't count towards SCMP doesn't mean that they don't get paid so that money still has to come from somewhere.

We have 33 players who have been named in the first team squad on the books at the moment. 22 are senior pros which is still too many at this level; I'd be interested to know how many Bristol City and Preston have. Iain Turner is a prime example of what we've got wrong: we loaned out Long at the start of the season but Clough then got anxious that Willis wasn't good enough as an understudy. Fine. However, you deal with that if anything happens to Howard: the most that Willis would have needed to playif anything had happened to Howard would have been 95 minutes but as it is, we've probably spent £100k+ getting Turner to play two JPT ties instead (not forgetting the £5k fine we'd have avoided if Howard had played in the second round tie).

I've listed the players on the books below. Do we really need 6 senior central midfielders, particularly when we have three bright prospects in the academy (Reed, Dimaio & Whiteman)? Did we really need either of the loanees?

* denotes players I think should be sold or released in January
** indicates players on loan
*** indicates players out on loan
^ denotes U21s who should be considered first team squad members

GKs: Howard, Turner*
RBs: Alcock
LBs: Harris, McEveley
CBs: Collins, McCarthy**
RM: Flynn, Campbell-Ryce, Davies
LM: Murphy
CM: Doyle, Basham, Cuvelier, Wallace J, Scougall, McGinn*
AM: Baxter
CF: Higdon, McNulty, O'Grady**, Porter*

Under 21s
GKs: Long^, Willis***
DF: McGahey^, Kennedy
MF: Reed^, Dimaio, Whiteman, Wallace K
AM: De Girolamo***, Adams, Khan

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Just because players don't count towards SCMP doesn't mean that they don't get paid so that money still has to come from somewhere.

We have 33 players who have been named in the first team squad on the books at the moment. 22 are senior pros which is still too many at this level; I'd be interested to know how many Bristol City and Preston have. Iain Turner is a prime example of what we've got wrong: we loaned out Long at the start of the season but Clough then got anxious that Willis wasn't good enough as an understudy. Fine. However, you deal with that if anything happens to Howard: the most that Willis would have needed to playif anything had happened to Howard would have been 95 minutes but as it is, we've probably spent £100k+ getting Turner to play two JPT ties instead (not forgetting the £5k fine we'd have avoided if Howard had played in the second round tie).

I've listed the players on the books below. Do we really need 6 senior central midfielders, particularly when we have three bright prospects in the academy (Reed, Dimaio & Whiteman)? Did we really need either of the loanees?

* denotes players I think should be sold or released in January
** indicates players on loan
*** indicates players out on loan
^ denotes U21s who should be considered first team squad members

GKs: Howard, Turner*
RBs: Alcock
LBs: Harris, McEveley
CBs: Collins, McCarthy**
RM: Flynn, Campbell-Ryce, Davies
LM: Murphy
CM: Doyle, Basham, Cuvelier, Wallace J, Scougall, McGinn*
AM: Baxter
CF: Higdon, McNulty, O'Grady**, Porter*

Under 21s
GKs: Long^, Willis***
DF: McGahey^, Kennedy
MF: Reed^, Dimaio, Whiteman, Wallace K
AM: De Girolamo***, Adams, Khan

I think the senior players who are surplus to requirements are Collins, Butler, McGinn and Porter.
I think that Clough recognises this also and he will try to offload them in January if he can.
I don't necessarily think that they were surplus at the start of the season but the signings or return to fitness of McCeveley, McCarthy, Cuvelier, K.Wallace, O'Grady, De Girolamo and Adams have obviously given him more and better options.
I have no problem with the manager holding on to players until he is able to recruit or field better alternatives and in most cases this has what has happened here.

Regarding the signing of Turner, we sent Long out on loan as being on the bench and never playing was restricting his development. Therefore, it would have made little sense to make Willis sit on the bench and never play all season instead.

 

[Lane Ender]

Butler surplus to requirements?

Probably the best CH in L1 and it was one his own signings
But hey Cloughies always right.

 

[oldblade]

Butler surplus to requirements?

Probably the best CH in L1 and it was one his own signings
But hey Cloughies always right.

Hey Pinchy, it's not Clough in League 1 that concerns me. It's Clough and his brother in the Championship. In my grandson's terms Clough is playing at level 1 now, which is generally a piece of piss. Level 2 is harder and Level 3 harder still.

United need somebody now who can go all the way, just like my grandson can! If he can't he changes games.

I'm afraid our signings have been poor, our tactics are almost as bad and player encouragement totally negative.

I think Clough has now proved pretty conclusively that he is able to play at level 2 and level one. That is now 4 premier league sides and 2 championship sides that we have knocked out of cup competitions in the last 11 months. Three of those premier league sides we have despatched on their own grounds and two of them are currently challenging for a place in Europe.

I think it's time to stop all this nonsense about our players and Clough's buys not being good enough.

Whatever the reasons behind our stuttering league form, lack of playing ability is not one of them.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think Clough has now proved pretty conclusively that he is able to play at level 2 and level one. That is now 4 premier league sides and 2 championship sides that we have knocked out of cup competitions in the last 11 months. Three of those premier league sides we have despatched on their own grounds and two of them are currently challenging for a place in Europe.

I think it's time to stop all this nonsense about our players and Clough's buys not being good enough.

Whatever the reasons behind our stuttering league form, lack of playing ability is not one of them.

That is a fair point this fine morning, but not on many mornings over past weeks I'm afraid. Let's hope it's a springboard and we pick up the tempo and the momentum. Just a point, 4-5-1 is much more effective against teams who come on to us. We need players and tactics to defeat the banks of 4 and 5 we see every home game and some away games. I reckon we need a couple of different kinds of players up front. Let's hope O'Grady will be one of them.

Flynn, Reid and Cuvellier are like new signings too.


BTW my reference to "levels" related to my grandkids' computer games not football leagues.

 

[oldblade]

That is a fair point this fine morning, but not on many mornings over past weeks I'm afraid. Let's hope it's a springboard and we pick up the tempo and the momentum. Just a point, 4-5-1 is much more effective against teams who come on to us. We need players and tactics to defeat the banks of 4 and 5 we see every home game and some away games. I reckon we need a couple of different kinds of players up front. Let's hope O'Grady will be one of them.

Flynn, Reid and Cuvellier are like new signings too.

It is a fair point on any morning.

Our league form is haphazard, but whatever the reasons for that it is not down to player ability. Some would have us believe that we have signed a load of (at best) average journeymen players. Against far superior opposition than we face in the league our players have consistently shown that they are far better than that. And Clough has shown that he has the ability to manage at a higher level. If this was not the case we would not have taken the scalps of so many sides from higher divisions than us.

You could argue that one such result might be a fluke, but we have done it numerous times.

Our players are good enough to win promotion. The fact we are struggling to do so is down to something other than their abilities.

 

[Kenilworth]

Our players are good enough to win promotion. The fact we are struggling to do so is down to something other than their abilities.

Tic Tacs?

 

[oldblade]

Tic Tacs?

Possibly, along with good old fashioned motivation.

 

[Pinchy]

It is a fair point on any morning.

Our league form is haphazard, but whatever the reasons for that it is not down to player ability. Some would have us believe that we have signed a load of (at best) average journeymen players. Against far superior opposition than we face in the league our players have consistently shown that they are far better than that. And Clough has shown that he has the ability to manage at a higher level. If this was not the case we would not have taken the scalps of so many sides from higher divisions than us.

You could argue that one such result might be a fluke, but we have done it numerous times.

Our players are good enough to win promotion. The fact we are struggling to do so is down to something other than their abilities.

Absolutely. There is every indication, based on consistent and successful performances against higher league opposition, that these players would actually fare better at a higher level than our present station. All the more reason to get out of here.....

 

[Woodwardfan]

It is a fair point on any morning.

Our league form is haphazard, but whatever the reasons for that it is not down to player ability. Some would have us believe that we have signed a load of (at best) average journeymen players. Against far superior opposition than we face in the league our players have consistently shown that they are far better than that. And Clough has shown that he has the ability to manage at a higher level. If this was not the case we would not have taken the scalps of so many sides from higher divisions than us.

You could argue that one such result might be a fluke, but we have done it numerous times.

Our players are good enough to win promotion. The fact we are struggling to do so is down to something other than their abilities.

I still would maintain that we are to this day short of two frontrunners and goalscorers to mount a serious challenge for the two automatic spots. Cup football is very different from week in week out games in the league against teams who are delighted to defend for their lives and happy with a point even when at home to us.

If you think our strikers are good enough fair enough. By now I think McNulty qualifies as a potential 1st choice maybe. Higdon has not settled and looks the wrong type of player. Porter is Porter. Diego not ready.

I hope we get O'Grady but I'm not convinced he is the right type of player to complement our system, but maybe we will change that for home games hopefully.

Clough has not signed enough match winners, that's what I'm saying. Our match winners IMO are Murphy and Baxter, neither of whom are Cllough signings. Now if he had signed a good striker or two, all his other signings would have looked much better. I think he got his priorities wrong and we have suffered all season, apart from in the cups.

 

[oldblade]

I still would maintain that we are to this day short of two frontrunners and goalscorers to mount a serious challenge for the two automatic spots. Cup football is very different from week in week out games in the league against teams who are delighted to defend for their lives and happy with a point even when at home to us.

If you think our strikers are good enough fair enough. By now I think McNulty qualifies as a potential 1st choice maybe. Higdon has not settled and looks the wrong type of player. Porter is Porter. Diego not ready.

I hope we get O'Grady but I'm not convinced he is the right type of player to complement our system, but maybe we will change that for home games hopefully.

Clough has not signed enough match winners, that's what I'm saying. Our match winners IMO are Murphy and Baxter, neither of whom are Cllough signings. Now if he had signed a good striker or two, all his other signings would have looked much better. I think he got his priorities wrong and we have suffered all season, apart from in the cups.

I think the reason our cup form is better than our league form is that we play differently in the cups. We are more positive and play without fear. Our tempo is also better.

If McNulty (a Clough signing) can score against a top half premier league side he can do it against any third division side. A third division side that defends for it's life is still a third division side and not as good (defensively or offensively) as a premier league side.

Half of the starting eleven last night were Clough signings, and they were all excellent..

In the league we are misfiring because we don't play to our strengths and we appear to play with little confidence. I feel it is as simple as that. The abilities of our players really are not the issue.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think the reason our cup form is better than our league form is that we play differently in the cups. We are more positive and play without fear. Our tempo is also better.

If McNulty (a Clough signing) can score against a top half premier league side he can do it against any third division side. A third division side that defends for it's life is still a third division side and not as good (defensively or offensively) as a premier league side.

Half of the starting eleven last night were Clough signings, and they were all excellent..

In the league we are misfiring because we don't play to our strengths and we appear to play with little confidence. I feel it is as simple as that. The abilities of our players really are not the issue.

Do you think we have enough quality strikers to achieve automatic promotion then?

 

[oldblade]

Do you think we have enough quality strikers to achieve automatic promotion then?

I think we have enough in the team/squad as a whole to do it, but our approach to league games needs to be more like our approach to cup games.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think we have enough in the team/squad as a whole to do it, but our approach to league games needs to be more like our approach to cup games.

Then we largely agree except I think we are light on strikers and we lack pace to trouble back 4's.. I certainly think the manager needs to up the tempo and get more men in the box. Quite a big part of being a successful manager I think.

4-5-1 is great against better teams. We need something different against say 18 teams in league 1 and we haven't seen it yet and it is mid-December. Of course there are different ways of playing 4-5-1, but we don't seem to make it a flexible, fast and fluid system.

Let's hope last night was the turning point anyway.