FA investigate racism

[HillmortonBlade]

One key aspect of due process here is establishing guilt instead of pronouncing it.

This I think is fundamental to a system of justice - as opposed to a system of lynching, revenge, or similar. No matter how serious the allegations, and how apparently obvious the case, due process should be followed.

In this case motivation needs to be established. If it can't be established then guilt can't be established either.

The legal position may differ, I'm not sure.

Depends on the level of proof needed. In a criminal court, where proof beyond reasonable doubt is required, I believe the evidence will be whether a reasonable member of the public (or words to that effect) would believe it was racist. The level of proof for the FA, I should imagine, is on the balance of probabilities.

 

[FTPE]

I want to know who heard these monkey chants!!?

 

[HillmortonBlade]

I want to know who heard these monkey chants!!?

No one did, and no one is claiming to have done.

 

[United Aren't Back.]

By

Worst spam enough said

No, but Islam is a race. And these chants were directed towards Bradford's Islam community, effectively tarnishing every member of that community with the brush of a very select few who have fled to a murderous group. You couldn't get closer to the definition of racism if you tried.

With respect Barney, Islam is a religion, not a race.

 

[northsomersetblade]

It was insinuated by the lardy Bradford chairman, and gratefully amplified by the press including the wonderful impartial BBC.

 

[FTPE]

No one did, and no one is claiming to have done.

Sorry, misread an article in the mirror where their chairman compares what is claimed to have happened at the lane with monkey chants.

 

[blade too long]

No, but Islam is a race. And these chants were directed towards Bradford's Islam community,

are they

who says

isis is islamic state , a cult , an extremist group not islam

we mocked the mooneys who were a white extremists christian cult

who takes offence at mocking extremism

its like singing leeds is a town full of Savilles
obviously its not really
people can work that out , surely , irs fan mockery , nothing else

did Ryan Giggs really shag every man utd players wives
no
but it got sung

 

[Barney]

are they

who says

I've already corrected myself on that.

 

[Old Skool]

I am no expert but I am prepared to bet a hefty sum that this kind of stuff gets sung at Bradford fans at EVERY SINGLE match they play. Is it right? No. Is it Racist. Probably. Is it worth investigating? No. The FA has bigger issues to address than a few misdirected attempts to wind up opposition fans with clearly unsubstantiated and overly-exaggerated stereotypes. Question. When has the FA intervened when fans have made reference to opposing fans being Cockney/Northern Twats...Sheep-Shaggers.....Welsh/English/Scottish W@nkers ???? Not the finest moment in our clubs recent history granted but worthy of an FA investigation??? Seriously??? How about doing more to enforce fair pricing for fans "20's Plenty"???? Getting more of the SKY money spread amongst those outside the Premiership rather than making the wealthy more wealthy.................Jeez. And we wonder why football is rapidly going down the crapper.

 

[SwissBlade]

Thread title should be FA Investigate Alleged Racism

Why?.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

No, but Islam is a race. And these chants were directed towards Bradford's Islam community, effectively tarnishing every member of that community with the brush of a very select few who have fled to a murderous group. You couldn't get closer to the definition of racism if you tried.

First of all there isw no agreement as to what was chanted, though most seem to think it was about ISIS.

Islam is a religion practised around the world by a wide range of races. The implicit assumption that anti-islamic sentiments (and I am not defending them) are inherently racist (because of a presumed association of the religion solely with the Asian population) is in itself implicitly racist and an example of middle class racist stereotyping. Until you can ascertain the intent clearly and unequivocally (the motivation behind the words is open to interpretation) no-one can say with certainty that it was racist or not. Religion is a matter of choice not race.

There are, however, incontravertable connections between Islam and ISIS not the least because the contradictions within islamic literature are being exploited to justify every action of ISIS by some pretty shrewd cookies. This does not mean that all muslims support ISIS, far from it but the ISIS state does represent a real headache for the majority of islamic community leaders who do not share their extreme interpretations of islamic scriptures. In the aftermath of the Paris and Syrian atrocities there is clear evidence at state levels of a perceived linkage between ISIS and Islam (witness Obama's tightening of security, the idiot Trump's pronouncements and the shift in attitudes to Syrian refugees). In this light I am not surprised that mainstream Islam as a religion is coming under pressure because of ISIS' use of Islamic teachings and Bradford, with recent media fuelled associations with ISIS, in particular.

Not that long ago all SUFC supporters were accused of being rapist apologists. Now we are being accused of being racist because a couple of dozen numpties thought they had found a clever way to wind up BCFC supporters. The thing is the media whip up the storm and furore (the Leytonstone tube incident for example), set several hares running and when there is a reaction they innocently claim just to be reporting the facts as they stir the pot even more by polarising debate and exaggerating reactions in their reporting. Put simply sensationalist crap sells papers and they know it. The quality of journalism, especially the Stir and RS, is disturbingly low and quite dangerous in my view. As for the idiot chairman of BCFC all I can say he is only a marginal improvement on the guy who was accused of starting fires for insurance jobs.

This is a storm in a teacup blown out of all proportion. The idiots were shut up by the Kop and we don't need some bloke in a blazer at the FA standing on a soapbox to beat SUFC up as a way of making a name for themselves. The supporters in the overwhelming majority did not engage in the idiot chanting and those around it shut it up pretty fast. You have to ask yourself who has something to gain from making a meal of a small incident that was distasteful but sorted and what is their agenda.

My take on it anyhow. Happy new year everyone and may your god go with you.

 

[Bladepicker]

HillmortonBlade Barney totally agree. Unfortunately people with an opposing opinion will not read or understand anything you have put and come back with 'But ISIS isn't a race'.

Just disappoints we have so many people willing to defend our very small but very moronic minority rather than praise those of our fan base who think it is wrong and leave the real anger for the way the media have reported it incorrectly.

 

[Bladepicker]

First of all there isw no agreement as to what was chanted, though most seem to think it was about ISIS.

Islam is a religion practised around the world by a wide range of races. The implicit assumption that anti-islamic sentiments (and I am not defending them) are inherently racist (because of a presumed association of the religion solely with the Asian population) is in itself implicitly racist and an example of middle class racist stereotyping. Until you can ascertain the intent clearly and unequivocally (the motivation behind the words is open to interpretation) no-one can say with certainty that it was racist or not. Religion is a matter of choice not race.

Agree totally about the overreaction of the press and that is a very good post. But can ot agree with the above. The assumption that anti muslim sentiments are directed against a particular race is not inherently racist if that assumption is based on reasonable evidence that this is the case.

Whether it be brown people with beards and turbans getting anti islam abuse (my sikh friend gets it a lot of the time) or the fact that this song was aimed at Bradford but not any other team we have played, it is common sense to equate the fact that a lot of anti islamic sentiment is aimed at particular races of people, rather than actual muslims.

It is not inherently racist to identify racism!

 

[YouFUMS]

I heard the 'town full of ISIS' chant, and it took me a few seconds to realise the 'ISIS' bit. I'll be honest, It made me smile - as did the majority of people sat around us. If that makes me racist, then so be it. They can ban me for life.

 

[judge]

Just bantz

 

[Bladebri]

So 'Town full of gingers' would be anti white as they are the only ones who could have ginger hair?

Hey I'm ginger, I'm now seeking instruction from my lawyers. And the FA.

 

[vorpal blade]

I wasn't at the match.

But I have been to many matches between SUFC and Bradford, unless something has changed dramatically, their supporters are in the main - white. Though of course there will be people of many religions and none among their flock.

So chants at a Bradford match while they may be anti-Moslem, are not usually directed at Moslems. They are meant to make white Bradfordians embarrassed or possibly resentful that they live in a town with a high immigrant population.
Nor does it have any effect, its pointless because Bradford folk have had the best part of 50 years to form an opinion on whether they enjoy living in a racially mixed town or not.

IF the chants did only emanate from a small group of lads at the back of the kop, then, knowing what I know, I suppose that they were young men in their mid-twenties and younger..... they may have hoped that the 'Town Full of ISIS ' song would snowball but would have known that was a vain hope.

So in effect, the song was directed at their fellow United supporters in the Kop, because there weren't enough of them to make themselves heard by the Bradford lot 130 yards away. In that sense it was a bit like a racist joke told among friends or family in the privacy of the family home. As far as I know, that is still legal?

But it was only a bit like a private joke.... it was too public for that (they sang it out loud to 10 000), it was more like when racists make snide comments like 'play the white man' or use cretinous descriptions like 'athlete' of black men, in public, thinking that they are being clever and getting away with it.....BUT Mr. Mohamed heard it from somewhere in the South Stand and of course there would be plenty of people of loads of religions and none in the Kop too.

BUT I doubt the singers thought they were being particularly racist at all, they thought they were avoiding that by not using any word alluding to Pakistani but substituting the universally despised acronym ISIS instead.

BUT it seems Ramon Mohamed was particularly attuned to the chants, he may have come to Bramall Lane expecting to hear 'Town full of Pakis' or whatever the usual anti Bradford chant is, and aye, he heard it.
We really need to hear Ramon's side of this and maybe we will - subject to future events - hear him in the local media next week - but I do think that a few Moslems have become *hyper-sensitive, I see interviews on TV with women who have recently taken to wearing a full face veil complaining that people are looking at them.....(well they would wouldn't they?) Moslem Facebook® friends post non-event stories about mixed marriages as if they are exceptional in some way and examples of the media reporting terrorism in an 'anti-Moslem' way ......

[* Having read Ramon's life history, I'm not sure he would describe himself as Moslem btw]

Long story shorter - not very bright young men try to crack vaguely racist joke among 'friends' - said 'friends' don't find it funny and ignore it and guess what - it goes away. Other friends tell them to shut up....and they do.

Am I right in thinking that only one person among 25 000 heard it and didn't ignore it and that's why it hasn't gone away?

Maybe he should have.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

"My take on it anyhow. Happy new year everyone and may your god go with you."

I'm an atheist. What about me?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I heard the 'town full of ISIS' chant, and it took me a few seconds to realise the 'ISIS' bit. I'll be honest, It made me smile - as did the majority of people sat around us. If that makes me racist, then so be it. They can ban me for life.

This illustrates a point really well.

Were the chants racist or ironic? Presumably you're not a racist, you saw/heard it as irony, and it made you smile.

Further to this someone else posted that there were a few cheers when the chanting started. Ironic cheers, mocking the chants,.but what if those cheers are (also) taken at face value?

The story soon becomes hundreds of Blades fans started a racist chant and were cheered on by several other fans.

With calls for the fans chanting and the fans cheering to be banned for life.

Mud is slung at the club again and some of it sticks.

This is a serious and complex issue. Hope the club are up to dealing with it.

 

[Worksop II]

They can ban me for life.

Nice try, attendance required Saturday 3pm, dont be late

For you, there is no escape

 

[PeteBlade]

This illustrates a point really well.

Were the chants racist or ironic? Presumably you're not a racist, you saw/heard it as irony, and it made you smile.

Further to this someone else posted that there were a few cheers when the chanting started. Ironic cheers, mocking the chants,.but what if those cheers are (also) taken at face value?

The story soon becomes hundreds of Blades fans started a racist chant and were cheered on by several other fans.

With calls for the fans chanting and the fans cheering to be banned for life.

Mud is slung at the club again and some of it sticks.

This is a serious and complex issue. Hope the club are up to dealing with it.

Laughing at racist jokes doesn't make them less racist.

 

[sitwell]

My mate who is Asian and from Bradford.( Chinese actually from Bingley and lives in Buffalo but near enough ) sent me a New year greeting with (Town full of ISIS) at last something new . Doesn't feel abused or insulted in the slightest just thought it was banter. He also said whats an Asian guy from Sheffield feel so insulted by ? He isn't from Bradford ,many ISIS are not Asian anyway. He is not impressed with how Bradford come across ,especially with their lard arse director talking shite.

 

[Barney]

This illustrates a point really well.

Were the chants racist or ironic? Presumably you're not a racist, you saw/heard it as irony, and it made you smile.

Further to this someone else posted that there were a few cheers when the chanting started. Ironic cheers, mocking the chants,.but what if those cheers are (also) taken at face value?

The story soon becomes hundreds of Blades fans started a racist chant and were cheered on by several other fans.

With calls for the fans chanting and the fans cheering to be banned for life.

Mud is slung at the club again and some of it sticks.

This is a serious and complex issue. Hope the club are up to dealing with it.

I'm still awaiting an explanation as to why the chants weren't racist. I'm that certain they were I'm genuinely interested to read any opposing explanation. Btw - whether or not there are people smiling at the chants doesn't make the chant or those people any less out of order. It's strange to claim otherwise.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

It's a sad day when individuals put their own agendas first even when it means dragging the entire club and supporters through the mud. It was obvious this would end up being blown out of all proportion and misrepresented in the media e.g. 'hundreds chanted it in the South Stand'....eh?

In reality it was a very brief chant by a very small minority (silly but not racist) which was quickly put down by our own fans.

 

[PeteBlade]

I'm still awaiting an explanation as to why the chants weren't racist. I'm that certain they were I'm genuinely interested to read any opposing explanation. Btw - whether or not there are people smiling at the chants doesn't make the chant or those people any less out of order. It's strange to claim otherwise.

I read that you need to ask the people chanting as to their intentions when they chanted before you can decide.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

if Trevor Brooking is still involved in the FA what will the out come be
Obviously Sheffield United to be closed down with immediate effect
The wonderful BDTBL bulldozed down
All Sheffield United fans put into slave labour
Any resistance to the above met with military action and Capitol punish to any found guilty
All proceeds made from the sale of the prime land donated to WORST SPAM FC
The academy to be handed over to the dark side

UTB and FTP

Thread No 4

 

[Barney]

It's a sad day when individuals put their own agendas first even when it means dragging the entire club and supporters through the mud. It was obvious this would end up being blown out of all proportion and misrepresented in the media e.g. 'hundreds chanted it in the South Stand'....eh?

In reality it was a very brief chant by a very small minority (silly but not racist) which was quickly put down by our own fans.

A very brief chant by a very small minority it may have been, and the media may well be construing things unnecessarily (only with the 'hundreds' statement, IMO) no problem with that.

What you don't seem to have grasped is that the quantity of fans chanting doesn't dilute the content. As long as it was clearly audible, as the genereal consensus would have it down, the content cannot be excused by the small number singing it.

I've noticed you keep stating "silly, but not racist", or words to that effect, do you have any actual explanation as to why you think the chants weren't racist?

 

[Cyprus Blade]

I'm an atheist. What about me?

So am I - my only gods played in red and white HAPPY NEW YEAR.

 

[vorpal blade]

An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman, two Rotweillers and a Rabbi walk into a pub and the barman says, "is this supposed to be some kind of joke?"


is this a racist joke?

 

[HillmortonBlade]

An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman, two Rotweillers and a Rabbi walk into a pub and the barman says, "is this supposed to be some kind of joke?"


is this a racist joke?

Are any of the protected characteristics of race discriminated against?