Excluding Cup Competitions: Who was/is a better manager at their spell at Bramall Lane

[Darren]

I think it's something people say to rationalise in their own minds why we have not expectations this season.

I bet if you asked anyone on the board they would say they expected a top 2 challenge this year.

Indeed. If we don't go up this season, you can't blame the board. When was the last january transfer window weher we splashed out lots and didn't sell anyone?

 

[TonyAgana]

It's a sign of how expectations have been lowered. We get crowds of 20,000 in the 3rd Division and are satisfied with a season "rebuilding"

FFS.

From the appointment of Weir, it was made clear that the club were trying to lay solid foundations, become self-sufficient, concentrate on our youth and not rely on hotshot loanees and overpaid old men. Weir made a bollocks of it and nobody had the patience to see it through (I don't think Weir would've even gotten it right, by the way). The fact that we get 20,000 fans through the gates apparently has little impact on the budget so unless you think that is a lie, then I don't see your point.

 

[Darren]

From the appointment of Weir, it was made clear that the club were trying to lay solid foundations, become self-sufficient, concentrate on our youth and not rely on hotshot loanees and overpaid old men. Weir made a bollocks of it and nobody had the patience to see it through (I don't think Weir would've even gotten it right, by the way). The fact that we get 20,000 fans through the gates apparently has little impact on the budget so unless you think that is a lie, then I don't see your point.

The point is that we are far and away the most well resourced club in D3 and hence can afford to pay higher wages and hence get better players.

With all due respect all this about "laying solid foundations" stuff, whilst it would make sense if we were in the 2nd tier and building towards a promotion challenge, as long as we are in the third tier, it is so much guff. A club of SUFC's size should be able to get promotion from D3 with relative ease (cf Wolves last season). The fact that we are in our 4th year in that division shows what an utter disaster the running of the club has been.

 

[TonyAgana]

He has, but you make it sound like the squad we had was nowhere near a top 6 side. It was.

Ok, using only three replacements, what is your promotion-winning side?

 

[Darren]

From the appointment of Weir, it was made clear that the club were trying to lay solid foundations, become self-sufficient, concentrate on our youth and not rely on hotshot loanees and overpaid old men. Weir made a bollocks of it and nobody had the patience to see it through (I don't think Weir would've even gotten it right, by the way). The fact that we get 20,000 fans through the gates apparently has little impact on the budget so unless you think that is a lie, then I don't see your point.

PS, unless you ar American it's "got"

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

PS, unless you ar American it's "got"

Unless you're from the South Coast it's 'are'

 

[TonyAgana]

The point is that we are far and away the most well resourced club in D3 and hence can afford to pay higher wages and hence get better players.

Simple stuff!

With all due respect all this about "laying solid foundations" stuff, whilst it would make sense if we were in the 2nd tier and building towards a promotion challenge, as long as we are in the third tier, it is so much guff. A club of SUFC's size should be able to get promotion from D3 with relative ease (cf Wolves last season). The fact that we are in our 4th year in that division shows what an utter disaster the running of the club has been.

The running has been a disaster, I agree with you on that, but the board have gone down the route of gambling on promotion and failed (by a hair's breadth) on a number of occasions in the last 10 years. The squad and style that Clough has "rebuilt" has proven that it can compete with higher-level opposition so I don't think it is "guff".

 

[JohnDenver]

The point is that we are far and away the most well resourced club in D3 and hence can afford to pay higher wages and hence get better players.

With all due respect all this about "laying solid foundations" stuff, whilst it would make sense if we were in the 2nd tier and building towards a promotion challenge, as long as we are in the third tier, it is so much guff. A club of SUFC's size should be able to get promotion from D3 with relative ease (cf Wolves last season). The fact that we are in our 4th year in that division shows what an utter disaster the running of the club has been.

Agree with the last point, but as for waiting until we're in the championship before looking beyond a one season plan... Well that can't be right.

Wendy have dropped into this league twice by ending up with a squad of Div1 clogging specialists. We dropped in here in the first place due to our single season planning. Our current forethought is 7 years overdue.

 

[Darren]

Agree with the last point, but as for waiting until we're in the championship before looking beyond a one season plan... Well that can't be right.

Wendy have dropped into this league twice by ending up with a squad of Div1 clogging specialists. We dropped in here in the first place due to our single season planning. Our current forethought is 7 years overdue.

Wednesday took 2 seasons on each occasion to get promoted, so I don't think we can compare ourselves favourably with them....

 

[Darren]

Simple stuff!


The running has been a disaster, I agree with you on that, but the board have gone down the route of gambling on promotion and failed (by a hair's breadth) on a number of occasions in the last 10 years. The squad and style that Clough has "rebuilt" has proven that it can compete with higher-level opposition so I don't think it is "guff".

It can indeed compete with higher level opponents in one off cup games, but meanwhile it is losing to the likes of Port Vale and Gillingham and facing a pretty good chance of a 5th season in the third tier. If that's a "solid foundation", I am out.

 

[JohnDenver]

Wednesday took 2 seasons on each occasion to get promoted, so I don't think we can compare ourselves favourably with them....

I'm pointing out a danger of throwing squads together for short term goals. It is possible to look beyond that and do well too. Southampton should be our model, not Wendy. A club built on clever recruitment, developing players over multiple seasons, and sensible spending when necessary.

It's not a binary choice, just good strategic management - something we've not had for ages.

 

[Darren]

I'm pointing out a danger of throwing squads together for short term goals. It is possible to look beyond that and do well too. Southampton should be our model, not Wendy. A club built on clever recruitment, developing players over multiple seasons, and sensible spending when necessary.

It's not a binary choice, just good strategic management - something we've not had for ages.

I can see that, but the fact is the club has backed Clough financially and the current squad certainly have the ability to perform at a higher level (cf the cup games), hence if we fail to go up, it will be a management failure, nothing more, nothing less. What I am against is masking that reality with some PR aabout this being a "rebuilding" season.

 

[TonyAgana]

It can indeed compete with higher level opponents in one off cup games, but meanwhile it is losing to the likes of Port Vale and Gillingham and facing a pretty good chance of a 5th season in the third tier. If that's a "solid foundation", I am out.

Focusing on the small points, league 1 teams set up against us like a brick wall. Yes, we could spunk money on cloggers and smash our way to promotion (like Wednesday did) or try and play our way out. I'd be happy with any kind of promotion, don't get me wrong, but I'm not about to flounce out of BL exclaiming "I'm out" as I leave.

Anyway, JohnDenver is doing a much better job than me of arguing this point.

 

[Darren]

Focusing on the small points, league 1 teams set up against us like a brick wall. Yes, we could spunk money on cloggers and smash our way to promotion (like Wednesday did) or try and play our way out. I'd be happy with any kind of promotion, don't get me wrong, but I'm not about to flounce out of BL exclaiming "I'm out" as I leave.

Anyway, JohnDenver is doing a much better job than me of arguing this point.

The "I'm out" meant, "I am not going to sign up to such obvious bollocks"

Yes, I am really glad we didn't emu;ate Wednesday, the now firmly established 2nd tier team....

 

[JohnDenver]

I can see that, but the fact is the club has backed Clough financially and the current squad certainly have the ability to perform at a higher level (cf the cup games), hence if we fail to go up, it will be a management failure, nothing more, nothing less. What I am against is masking that reality with some PR aabout this being a "rebuilding" season.

Hmmm... Given Clough has been in charge for less than 1.5yrs (starting from an utter shambles), and we lost our three best players in summer I can accept we're approaching the end of a lengthy rebuild.

It's hugely frustrating we couldn't sign Brayford et al in summer, but whether you deem that management failure or not will only be clear in May. At least if we fail to go up this year, our squad won't need much surgery (whoever is manager).

Another failure next year would indeed be atrocious.

 

[Darren]

Hmmm... Given Clough has been in charge for less than 1.5yrs (starting from an utter shambles), and we lost our three best players in summer I can accept we're approaching the end of a lengthy rebuild.

It's hugely frustrating we couldn't sign Brayford et al in summer, but whether you deem that management failure or not will only be clear in May. At least if we fail to go up this year, our squad won't need much surgery (whoever is manager).

Another failure next year would indeed be atrocious.

For me the simple point is whether or not the current squad is amongst the three best in the division. I think it is, hence failure to et promotion can only be down to be how that squad is organised.

 

[TonyAgana]

The "I'm out" meant, "I am not going to sign up to such obvious bollocks"

Yes, I am really glad we didn't emu;ate Wednesday, the now firmly established 2nd tier team....

Like I said, I'd be happy with any kind of promotion, but Wednesday (despite being "firmly established") are still in transition, still fraught with problems, still only an injury away from a relegation battle, still surrounded by disillusioned fans, still training under a duvet cover, and nowhere near challenging. Every year stuck in league one is more frustrating than the last but it's a matter of "when" we get promoted. We will surpass Wednesday and that will be thanks to these "bollocks" foundations.

 

[JohnDenver]

For me the simple point is whether or not the current squad is amongst the three best in the division. I think it is, hence failure to et promotion can only be down to be how that squad is organised.

I wish we'd had MK's, PNE's or Bristol City's strikers this season. We've been miles short of others in that area.

The failure to recruit is the key failure. But to my eyes it's not the most egregious crime since we're getting there slowly and without compromise.

 

[TonyAgana]

For me the simple point is whether or not the current squad is amongst the three best in the division. I think it is, hence failure to et promotion can only be down to be how that squad is organised.

Since January, yes. Does the management not deserve credit for rebuilding one of the best three squads in the division, and time to work with it?

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

For me the simple point is whether or not the current squad is amongst the three best in the division. I think it is, hence failure to et promotion can only be down to be how that squad is organised.

True, but the squad hasn't been in place all season, he is probably Chris O'Grady away from the squad he wants but that won't happen until the Summer and he has only had Brayford, Coutts, Done for a month (since when results / performances have improved).

The question is, did he have enough or has he had enough all season to mount a challenge and the answer is probably yes so in terms of that he's failed.

 

[Darren]

Like I said, I'd be happy with any kind of promotion, but Wednesday (despite being "firmly established") are still in transition, still fraught with problems, still only an injury away from a relegation battle, still surrounded by disillusioned fans, still training under a duvet cover, and nowhere near challenging. Every year stuck in league one is more frustrating than the last but it's a matter of "when" we get promoted. We will surpass Wednesday and that will be thanks to these "bollocks" foundations.

So it's touch and go as to whether we will get promoted from the third tier, yet we can feel superior to Wednesday as they are not challenging for promotion in the 2nd tier.

Blimey!

 

[TonyAgana]

So it's touch and go as to whether we will get promoted from the third tier, yet we can feel superior to Wednesday as they are not challenging for promotion in the 2nd tier.

Blimey!

Not really what I said, Darren. I can feel confident that we will be challenging before them.

 

[Darren]

Not really what I said, Darren. I can feel confident that we will be challenging before them.

Put it this way, would you rather be in SWFC's position or ours?

It's a no brainer isn't it?

 

[Esablade]

Ched going down killed Danny....Prospect of Ched coming back killed this season...perhaps...

 

[TonyAgana]

Put it this way, would you rather be in SWFC's position or ours?

It's a no brainer isn't it?

Genuine answer: ours. Feel free to send for the men in white-coats, but I have my reasons. I mentioned in another thread that football is pointless and futile, and but for the highs, memories and accolades, I wouldn't be interested (would anyone?). Promotion is soon and we won't be back for some time. Wednesday, despite their current position and takeover, face another decade of laying foundations. Their ground is falling apart, their training facilities are practically non-existent, as is their academy. Every penny that the Thais invest should be invested in the infrastructure - it probably won't be, it'll more likely finance a gamble on promotion. We've been there and failed, and ended up on the brink of oblivion. They might succeed but it's not a gamble I want to see again.

 

[Darren]

Genuine answer: ours. Feel free to send for the men in white-coats, but I have my reasons. I mentioned in another thread that football is pointless and futile, and but for the highs, memories and accolades, I wouldn't be interested (would anyone?). Promotion is soon and we won't be back for some time. Wednesday, despite their current position and takeover, face another decade of laying foundations. Their ground is falling apart, their training facilities are practically non-existent, as is their academy. Every penny that the Thais invest should be invested in the infrastructure - it probably won't be, it'll more likely finance a gamble on promotion. We've been there and failed, and ended up on the brink of oblivion. They might succeed but it's not a gamble I want to see again.

Consider the men in white coats on their way

 

[TonyAgana]

Consider the men in white coats on their way

Let me ask you, would you swap everything that we have for everything that they have, to swap current league positions?

 

[Darren]

Let me ask you, would you swap everything that we have for everything that they have, to swap current league positions?

I don't see that we have some wonderful foundation that SWFC don't have, so yes.

 

[TonyAgana]

I don't see that we have some wonderful foundation that SWFC don't have, so yes.

If you'll allow me another couple of questions; do you live locally, Darren? Have you seen (or been to) Hillsborough recently? Have you driven past their training tent? Have you seen how many young players their academy has produced in the last 20 years?

 

[Darren]

If you'll allow me another couple of questions; do you live locally, Darren? Have you seen (or been to) Hillsborough recently? Have you driven past their training tent? Have you seen how many young players their academy has produced in the last 20 years?

Don't live locally and never been to Hillsborough in my life.

To be honest, I don't see the point of having a great infrastructure if the football is shit. Ours is in comparism to Wednesday. The bottom line in any event is that Wednesday are in hoc to some Thai guys and United are in hoc to some Saudi guys. In either set of guys get bored and pull the plug, both clubs are in trouble.