Elliot Whitehouse

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Pinchy said:
So every player on our books has to be given first-team football, whether or not they excel at youth levels? If they do not excel amongst their peers, why will they do so at a higher level? In my view your argument, summed up in your own words "Nobody knows if any player is going to make it until they see first team football" is deeply flawed and unsustainable. Should every actor in Repertory Theatre get a chance in a Hollywood blockbuster? Does every pub singer have to be given a gig at the Royal Albert Hall?
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Apparently the argument is that all the youth players are of equal ability and if they are put in the first team, they will have such an injection of confidence as to become world beaters.
 

Darren said:
Apparently the argument is that all the youth players are of equal ability and if they are put in the first team, they will have such an injection of confidence as to become world beaters.
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Yes, that is exactly word for word what I said :)
 
Back in the real world...

I don't have a problem with youth players not being given opportunities IF the first team shirt is filled with a good player for the level we're playing at.

I would say, though, that I think that we could and should have used youth players over the likes of Barry Robson and Danny Higginbotham but Wilson was too scared to do that. Clough seems to be more sure of himself - if he things they're good enough, they'll play.

I don't doubt that (a fully fit) James Wallace is a better player at this moment in time than Connor Dimaio. However, who's to say that Dimaio won't become better once he gains first team match experience? The two aren't mutually exclusive: that's what substitutions and non-entity competitions like the Johnstone's Paint Trophy are for.
 
Balham Blade said:
Back in the real world...

I don't have a problem with youth players not being given opportunities IF the first team shirt is filled with a good player for the level we're playing at.

I would say, though, that I think that we could and should have used youth players over the likes of Barry Robson and Danny Higginbotham but Wilson was too scared to do that. Clough seems to be more sure of himself - if he things they're good enough, they'll play.

I don't doubt that (a fully fit) James Wallace is a better player at this moment in time than Connor Dimaio. However, who's to say that Dimaio won't become better once he gains first team match experience? The two aren't mutually exclusive: that's what substitutions and non-entity competitions like the Johnstone's Paint Trophy are for.
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Interestingly, our most succesful recent seasons have been ones where young players were not "given a chance".

We went from the third to first tier from 88-90 and Dane Whitehouse was the only youth team player given a chance in that time. In our subsequent 4 seasons in the top tier the only youth players played were Lucas, Ward, Fickling, and Reed. Reed played one sub appearance, Fickling one appearance in the Leage Cup, Lucas a handful of games and only Ward was any good.

In 2005-06, no young players were introduced in the first team and whilst Law, McFadzean, Ross, Horwood and Marrison played in the League Cup, only Law went on to play a League game and he was the only young player introduced in the PL season.


Oh, John Reed = 25.
 
Which Managers "gave youth a chance"? Since 1968: Players who played in league games only:

Rowley: 1 season - none = 0 per season

Harris: 4.5 seasons 8 (MacKenzie, McAlister, Goulding, Ogden, Holmes, Speight, Cammack, Faulkner) = 1.8 per season

Furphy: 2ish seasons: 1 (France) = 0.5 per season

Sirrel: 2ish seasons 7 (Kenworthy, Ludlam, McGeady, Edwards, Stainrod, Hamson, Conroy) 3.5 per season

Haslam 3ish seasons 6 (Harwood, Benjamin, Jones, Flood, Wiggan, Steane) 2 per season

Peters: 0.5 seasons none = 0 per season

Porterfield 4.75 seasons 9 (Broddle, West, P. Smith, Cooper, Philliskirk, Tomlinson, B. Smith. McGeeney, Eckhardt) = 1.9 per season

McEwan: 1.75 seasons: 2 (Mendonca, Marsden) = 1.1 per season

Bassett: 8ish seasons 8 (Wood, Whitehouse, Ward, Lucas, Reed, Anthony, Battersby, Hawes) 1 per season

Kendall: 1,5ish seasons 1 (Bettney) 0.7 per season

Spackman: 0.75 seasons 3 (Quinn, Woodhouse, Morris) 4 per season

Bruce 1 season - none - 0 per season

Heath: 0.33 seasons 1 (Burley) 3 per season

Warnock 7.67 seasons: 10 (Doane, Jagielka, Motgomery, Tonge, Ward, Mallon, Killeen, Hurst, Forte, Law) 1.3 per season

Robson: 0.67 seasons: none - 0 per season

Blackwell: 2.33 seasons: 2 (Walker, Naughton) 0.9 per season

Speed 0.5 seasons 1 (Slew) 2 per season

Adams: 0.5 seasons 4 (Harriott, Maguire, Long, Kennedy) 8 per season

Wilson: 2ish seasons 4 (Chappell, Whitehouse, Ironside, McFadzean) 2 per season

Weir: 0.25 seasons none - 0 per season

Clough: 0.75 seasons 3 (Khan, Reed, Dimaio) = 4 per season


So comparativelt Micky Adams was the most willing to give youth a chance and Rowley and Bruce the least.
 
Darren said:
Which Managers "gave youth a chance"? Since 1968: Players who played in league games only:

Rowley: 1 season - none = 0 per season

Harris: 4.5 seasons 8 (MacKenzie, McAlister, Goulding, Ogden, Holmes, Speight, Cammack, Faulkner) = 1.8 per season

Furphy: 2ish seasons: 1 (France) = 0.5 per season

Sirrel: 2ish seasons 7 (Kenworthy, Ludlam, McGeady, Edwards, Stainrod, Hamson, Conroy) 3.5 per season

Haslam 3ish seasons 6 (Harwood, Benjamin, Jones, Flood, Wiggan, Steane) 2 per season

Peters: 0.5 seasons none = 0 per season

Porterfield 4.75 seasons 9 (Broddle, West, P. Smith, Cooper, Philliskirk, Tomlinson, B. Smith. McGeeney, Eckhardt) = 1.9 per season

McEwan: 1.75 seasons: 2 (Mendonca, Marsden) = 1.1 per season

Bassett: 8ish seasons 8 (Wood, Whitehouse, Ward, Lucas, Reed, Anthony, Battersby, Hawes) 1 per season

Kendall: 1,5ish seasons 1 (Bettney) 0.7 per season

Spackman: 0.75 seasons 3 (Quinn, Woodhouse, Morris) 4 per season

Bruce 1 season - none - 0 per season

Heath: 0.33 seasons 1 (Burley) 3 per season

Warnock 7.67 seasons: 10 (Doane, Jagielka, Motgomery, Tonge, Ward, Mallon, Killeen, Hurst, Forte, Law) 1.3 per season

Robson: 0.67 seasons: none - 0 per season

Blackwell: 2.33 seasons: 2 (Walker, Naughton) 0.9 per season

Speed 0.5 seasons 1 (Slew) 2 per season

Adams: 0.5 seasons 4 (Harriott, Maguire, Long, Kennedy) 8 per season

Wilson: 2ish seasons 4 (Chappell, Whitehouse, Ironside, McFadzean) 2 per season

Weir: 0.25 seasons none - 0 per season

Clough: 0.75 seasons 3 (Khan, Reed, Dimaio) = 4 per season


So comparativelt Micky Adams was the most willing to give youth a chance and Rowley and Bruce the least.
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I think your methodology is distinctly flawed. Adams only 'gave youth a chance' when we were all but relegated. Long and kennedy only played in the final day mauling by swansea
 
Highbury_Blade said:
I think your methodology is distinctly flawed. Adams only 'gave youth a chance' when we were all but relegated.
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Indeed, but I think that rather proves my point. Managers generally only "give youth a chance" when there is nothing to play for and so you can safely take risks. See my post above to show how little young players played in our promotion seasons.

In fact the only young players to be introduced in our 6 promotion seasons since 1968 are as follows

70-1 none
81-2 Broddle (1 appearance)
83-4 Philliskirk amd Tomlinson
88-9 Whitehouse (about 5 appearances)
89-90 none
05-06 none

In other words in 6 promotion seasons we have only see n 2 young players introduced and play regulary.

This "give youth a chance and you will be succesful" really is mainly bollocks.
 
Conversley

Relegation seasons

75-6 5 (Kenworthy, McGeady, Ludlam, Edwards, Stainrod
78-9 4 (Harwood, Flood, Benjamin, Jones)
80-81 none
87-88 3 (Marsen, Mendonca, Wood)
93-94 none
06-07 1 (Law)
10-11 5 (Slew, Harriott, Maguire, Kennedy, Long)
 
Darren said:
Conversley

Relegation seasons

75-6 5 (Kenworthy, McGeady, Ludlam, Edwards, Stainrod
78-9 4 (Harwood, Flood, Benjamin, Jones)
80-81 none
87-88 3 (Marsen, Mendonca, Wood)
93-94 none
06-07 1 (Law)
10-11 5 (Slew, Harriott, Maguire, Kennedy, Long)
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This proves even less. We weren't relegated in 2011 as a consequence of giving 5 youth players their debuts.

Although maybe if we'd put out a more experienced midfielder instead of law in 07-07 at Old Trafford, we might have a got a goal that would have ultimately kept us up.
 
Highbury_Blade said:
This proves even less. We weren't relegated in 2011 as a consequence of giving 5 youth players their debuts.

Although maybe if we'd put out a more experienced midfielder instead of law in 07-07 at Old Trafford, we might have a got a goal that would have ultimately kept us up.
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I didn't say we were.

In a poor team managers will get desperate and throw in youth and, when all hope is gone, experiment. That's what happened in 10-11 and also in 75-6. That proves my point to the extent that youth did not prove a magical solution.

In a succsessful team, managers will not feel the need to take risks and throw in players who might not be ready.

I am just trying to get rid of this myth that giving youth a chance is, in fact, some magical solution and that certain managers are pig headed about it. Most managers conform to the above rules*

* The only real exception is Spackman who introduced 3 good youth players into a reasonably successful team.
 

Darren said:
Which Managers "gave youth a chance"? Since 1968: Players who played in league games only:

Rowley: 1 season - none = 0 per season


So comparativelt Micky Adams was the most willing to give youth a chance and Rowley and Bruce the least.
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Mick Harmston, Mick Heaton and Dave Staniforth were given debuts by Rowley
 
Darren said:
Your'e right about Staniforth and Harmston. Heaton made his debut the previous season
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Just checked..Heaton made a sub appearance in 1966/67 season so you are right although he didnt play in any competitive matches in 1967/68
 

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