Elliot Whitehouse

[JJ Sefton]

Tony Battersby was fantastic on Championship Manager in 92/93. Probably his crowning achievement.

He's playing for Wisbech Town apparently. We should go up with the LB's flag in shirts and cheer him on sometime.

 

[sheffielder]

To the best of my knowledge, there have been 21 players since 1988 who have come through the youth system, played for the first team and then been released (or sold to a team from the lower divisions). Here's a list. Not many world beaters here

1. Richard Lucas
2. Ashley Fickling
3. Graham Anthony
4. Tony Battersby
5. Chris Bettney
6. Adam Burley
7. Ben Doane
8. Mark Ward
9. Tyrone Thompson
10. Ryan Mallon
11. Lewis Killeen
12. Jonathon Forte
13. Billy Sharp
14. Nicky Law
15. Kyle McFadzean
16. Colin Marrison
17. Evan Harwood
18. Kingsley James
19. Jordan Chappell
20. Matty Harriott
21. Elliott Whitehouse

Where is Hurst/Hirst who plays at Southend? A reason a lot of young players fail is because they don't seem to play first team football early enough to help develop their career. Usually they are sat on the bench with no chance of getting on

Out of the last lost McFadzean and Whitehouse for example really should have been sent on loan . Instead, they were sat on Wilson's bench not getting any game time even in the last 10 minutes of games. This I see something Clough will change. They will go on loan or see some game time here if they are good enough.

 

[Darren]

The alternative list is youth players who got big money moves away from the club:

1. Mitch Ward
2. Wayne Quinn
3. Curtis Woodhouse
4. Lee Morris
5. Phil Jagielka
6. Michael Tonge
7. Kyle Naughton
8. Kyle Walker
9. Jordan Slew
10. Harry Maguire
11. Stephen Quinn (not sure if he counts, we signed him from an Irish youth team)

Which leaves just two youth players who played their entire (English) careers at the club

1. Dane Whitehouse
2. Nick Montgomery

 

[Darren]

Where is Hurst/Hirst who plays at Southend? A reason a lot of young players fail is because they don't seem to play first team football early enough to help develop their career. Usually they are sat on the bench with no chance of getting on

Out of the last lost McFadzean and Whitehouse for example really should have been sent on loan . Instead, they were sat on Wilson's bench not getting any game time even in the last 10 minutes of games. This I see something Clough will change. They will go on loan or see some game time here if they are good enough.

You're right. I missed Kevan Hurst and Ian Ross. That makes 23.

I humbly suggest that the reason virtually all of those players failed at United was because they were not good enough. Hence their subsequent careers.

 

[Darren]

Also Jordan Robertson - 24.

 

[JJ Sefton]

The alternative list is youth players who got big money moves away from the club:

1. Mitch Ward
2. Wayne Quinn
3. Curtis Woodhouse
4. Lee Morris
5. Phil Jagielka
6. Michael Tonge
7. Kyle Naughton
8. Kyle Walker
9. Jordan Slew
10. Harry Maguire
11. Stephen Quinn (not sure if he counts, we signed him from an Irish youth team)

Which leaves just two youth players who played their entire (English) careers at the club

1. Dane Whitehouse
2. Nick Montgomery

Is Chris Marsden before your list?

 

[sheffielder]

You're right. I missed Kevan Hurst and Ian Ross. That makes 23.

I humbly suggest that the reason virtually all of those players failed at United was because they were not good enough. Hence their subsequent careers.

That is mostly the case out of your numbers I agree. I just don't think we do them any favours, when they don't see first team action until they are chucked in there at 19-20, like Kennedy for example.

 

[Darren]

Is Chris Marsden before your list?

I am going from 1988. Marsden didn't get a big money move anyway. He went off to third tier Huddersfield. As Revolution has pointed out, he had a very strange career trajectory. He didn't played in the top tier until he was 30 and then managed 129 games for Southampton there.

 

[Darren]

That is mostly the case out of your numbers I agree. I just don't think we do them any favours, when they don't see first team action until they are chucked in there at 19-20, like Kennedy for example.

If you look at my list of youth players who succeeded, I don't think you can say that if players are good enough they don't get a chance.

 

[Pinchy]

That is mostly the case out of your numbers I agree. I just don't think we do them any favours, when they don't see first team action until they are chucked in there at 19-20, like Kennedy for example.

It's the same old point, sheffielder. We are Sheffield United Football Club, not "Sheffield's Got Talent". It really is up to the player to command "first team action" (by sheer weight of performance at youth level), not for us to do them favours. Players who are truly 'good enough' invariably do that.

You (and others) really have this the wrong way round. Do you really think Joe Ironside (for example) would now be an effective centre-forward if we had made him a regular? In football, as in life, it's not wise to allow the tail to wag the dog.

 

[Darren]

It's the same old point, sheffielder. We are Sheffield United Football Club, not "Sheffield's Got Talent". It really is up to the player to command "first team action" (by sheer weight of performance at youth level), not for us to do them favours. Players who are truly 'good enough' invariably do that.

You (and others) really have this the wrong way round. Do you really think Joe Ironside (for example) would now be an effective centre-forward if we had made him a regular? In football, as in life, it's not wise to allow the tail to wag the dog.

Indeed; and I would add to that that one can hardly say Ironside has not been given a chance. He has made 16 ineffective appearances for United (no goals). He has also been loaned out to non league Halifax and Harrogate and scored 2 goals there in 18 appearances.

It would seem highly unlikely he will make a career at league level.

 

[Bath Blade]

He scored lots of goals in the lower divisions, but when he was given a chance in the top 2 tiers (i.e. with us), he was shit.

By saying "i.e, with us" you suggest he hasn't played in the top two divisions with anyone else, so I guess you're disregarding the past four seasons in the Championship where he's scored 63 goals in total (according to soccerbase).

 

[Darren]

By saying "i.e, with us" you suggest he hasn't played in the top two divisions with anyone else, so I guess you're disregarding the past four seasons in the Championship where he's scored 63 goals in total (according to soccerbase).

I'm being slightly disingenuous.

He was our youth player when we flogged him to Scunthorpe in 2005. He then scored loads of goals in the lower divisions and was signed by a top two tier team - SUFC as it happens. He was shit with SUFC in the second tier and was sold on. He then, as you say, did reasonably well in the second tier.

However, given that when we sold him the second time, it was no longer a youth player who we thought was shit, but a signing who we thought was shit, he does not come within my category

But, go on, we can have him as the 1 out of 24 in 26 years where SUFC misjudged the talent of a youth player. Not a bad record.

 

[JJ Sefton]

1 - Which clubs have successful academy systems?

2 - What age do their academy players start playing first team football?

 

[Darren]

Going back even further do we have any advance on Mendonca, Marsden and Sharp as the the only youth players ever to have had solid top two tier careers after United let them go as not good enough?

 

[sheffielder]

It's the same old point, sheffielder. We are Sheffield United Football Club, not "Sheffield's Got Talent". It really is up to the player to command "first team action" (by sheer weight of performance at youth level), not for us to do them favours. Players who are truly 'good enough' invariably do that.

You (and others) really have this the wrong way round. Do you really think Joe Ironside (for example) would now be an effective centre-forward if we had made him a regular? In football, as in life, it's not wise to allow the tail to wag the dog.

I think you beat the drum a bit too much on our youngsters. I am saying you need to find out whether these guys are good enough by the time they are 17-18 and they need to see first team football. Obviously for the likes of Jags and Tonge for example they got that here, however others who were not seeing football like Kennedy and Whitehouse were not that level, and were needed to fill a bench due to our lack of squad numbers in the Wilson regime.

Nobody knows if any player is going to make it until they see first team football which you can now throw at Diego, Louis and Connor. So should we make them sit on the bench or should we send them somewhere to find out whether they can mentally cut first team football. Players are mostly of the same ability, however confidence is the only thing that can change. They are not going to get it on the bench. Look at Andreos Townsend for Spurs. Loaned here there and everywhere till he was ready. Sometimes players get the confidence straight away and for some it takes time. It will be interesting to see how Whitehouse progresses with first team football.

Also, for the record I have never said play anybody that is good enough, however if you don't see them playing first team football either for you or someone else, how do you do you know they are not good enough?

 

[Darren]

I think you beat the drum a bit too much on our youngsters. I am saying you need to find out whether these guys are good enough by the time they are 17-18 and they need to see first team football. Obviously for the likes of Jags and Tonge for example they got that here, however others who were not seeing football like Kennedy and Whitehouse were not that level, and were needed to fill a bench due to our lack of squad numbers in the Wilson regime.

Nobody knows if any player is going to make it until they see first team football which you can now throw at Diego, Louis and Connor. So should we make them sit on the bench or should we send them somewhere to find out whether they can mentally cut first team football. Players are mostly of the same ability, however confidence is the only thing that can change. They are not going to get it on the bench. Look at Andreos Townsend for Spurs. Loaned here there and everywhere till he was ready. Sometimes players get the confidence straight away and for some it takes time. It will be interesting to see how Whitehouse progresses with first team football.

Also, for the record I have never said play anybody that is good enough, however if you don't see them playing first team football either for you or someone else, how do you do you know they are not good enough?

What?

You think the only difference between Wayne Rooney and Chris Porter is that Rooney has more confidence?

 

[sheffielder]

1 - Which clubs have successful academy systems?
2 - What age do their academy players start playing first team football?

The only true successful academy is Southampton due to the numbers they bring through. Their players seem to play straight away. Gallagher 17 Ward Prowse 17 player in the premier league last season.

Southampton, because of the quality of the academy pick up any player south of London. They have a wide area to play with.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Going back even further do we have any advance on Mendonca, Marsden and Sharp as the the only youth players ever to have had solid top two tier careers after United let them go as not good enough?

Imre Varadi?

 

[sheffielder]

What?

You think the only difference between Wayne Rooney and Chris Porter is that Rooney has more confidence?

I mean in the same team. players are generally of the same level in the division they are in. two players playing for sheff utd are probably of roughly the same level

 

[JJ Sefton]

What?

You think the only difference between Wayne Rooney and Chris Porter is that Rooney has more confidence?

Porter has his own hair. Rooney has the hair of a Sri Lankan orphan sewed onto his scalp.

 

[Darren]

Imre Varadi?

Not a youth player and we didn't let him go. We signed him from non league Letchworth in April 78 and flogged him to top tier Everton in March 79.

 

[Darren]

I mean in the same team. players are generally of the same level in the division they are in. two players playing for sheff utd are probably of roughly the same level

Ok, so it would make no difference if we played the under 18 team on Saturday?

 

[sheffielder]

Ok, so it would make no difference if we played the under 18 team on Saturday?

Yeh because all the experience and confidence the u18's have of playing first team football would probably mean they would win too.

 

[Darren]

Yeh because all the experience and confidence the u18's have of playing first team football would probably mean they would win too.

Your theory seems to be that our players are utterly interchangeable and the only difference is that those who have played in the first team have more confidence.

Joe Ironside has played 16 times in the first team. That should be enough to give him confidence. Shall we start him up front on Sat as his ability is exactly the same as Baxter, Porter, Higdon etc?

That would also appear to mean that it doesn't matter which players Clough signs as long as they have experience of playing in the third tier; they are all of the same ability so he can just stick a pin on the profile in the Big Book of Third Division Players.

 

[sheffielder]

Darren, I am saying that if there are two player aged 18 of similar ability, do you think it's more likely the guy with more confidence, or experience of playing some first team games is more likely to succeed?

 

[sheffielder]

Your theory seems to be that our players are utterly interchangeable and the only difference is that those who have played in the first team have more confidence.

Joe Ironside has played 16 times in the first team. That should be enough to give him confidence. Shall we start him up front on Sat as his ability is exactly the same as Baxter, Porter, Higdon etc?

of course we should.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Your theory seems to be that our players are utterly interchangeable and the only difference is that those who have played in the first team have more confidence.

Joe Ironside has played 16 times in the first team. That should be enough to give him confidence. Shall we start him up front on Sat as his ability is exactly the same as Baxter, Porter, Higdon etc?

That would also appear to mean that it doesn't matter which players Clough signs as long as they have experience of playing in the third tier; they are all of the same ability so he can just stick a pin on the profile in the Big Book of Third Division Players.

The board wouldn't let him buy it.

 

[Darren]

Darren, I am saying that if there are two player aged 18 of similar ability, do you think it's more likely the guy with more confidence, or experience of playing some first team games is more likely to succeed?

You are begging the question. You assume that all 18 year olds are of equal ability. They clearly are not. If your theory were right, managers would just pick 18 year olds at random to play. They clearly' don't.

 

[Pinchy]

I think you beat the drum a bit too much on our youngsters. I am saying you need to find out whether these guys are good enough by the time they are 17-18 and they need to see first team football. Obviously for the likes of Jags and Tonge for example they got that here, however others who were not seeing football like Kennedy and Whitehouse were not that level, and were needed to fill a bench due to our lack of squad numbers in the Wilson regime.

Nobody knows if any player is going to make it until they see first team football which you can now throw at Diego, Louis and Connor. So should we make them sit on the bench or should we send them somewhere to find out whether they can mentally cut first team football. Players are mostly of the same ability, however confidence is the only thing that can change. They are not going to get it on the bench. Look at Andreos Townsend for Spurs. Loaned here there and everywhere till he was ready. Sometimes players get the confidence straight away and for some it takes time. It will be interesting to see how Whitehouse progresses with first team football.

Also, for the record I have never said play anybody that is good enough, however if you don't see them playing first team football either for you or someone else, how do you do you know they are not good enough?

So every player on our books has to be given first-team football, whether or not they excel at youth levels? If they do not excel amongst their peers, why will they do so at a higher level? In my view your argument, summed up in your own words "Nobody knows if any player is going to make it until they see first team football" is deeply flawed and unsustainable. Should every actor in Repertory Theatre get a chance in a Hollywood blockbuster? Does every pub singer have to be given a gig at the Royal Albert Hall?