development squad

[Chali 2na]

Well if you put him up against the recent dross plus Robson and Blackwell then of course he has. I'm a bit more discerning and my yardsticks are Harris, Bassett and Warnock who all took us to the premier league.

It's nice that you're discerning with your yardsticks, I'm 23 though, so I never experienced the Harris or Basset era. I specifically said that Wilder's record was better than the other managers of my lifetime: you can't expect me to compare him to mangers I've never seen.

Warnock was in my lifetime, and I can't agree that he had a better record in the transfer market.
You point out that he took us to the premier league, you fail to mention that it took him 7 years, he was also very well backed (amongst the best in the division) the season we went up - If Wilder had these conditions I dare say he'd have got us up too, probabaly faster.

I hope Wilder does and believe he will but until then I'm not getting carried away. He will have to sharpen up his transfer dealings though because unless he comes up with a Currie, Deane or Jagielka it aint going to happen.

Will he have to "sharpen up" or is it more about affording him a competitive budget? I'd say it's more of the latter.

As for signing the next Currie, Deane or Jagielka: the signings of Fleck, Baldock and O'Connell make me think we're heading in the right direction.

 

[snootyfenooty]

As for signing the next Currie, Deane or Jagielka: the signings of Fleck, Baldock and O'Connell make me think we're heading in the right direction.

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[I should coco]

Robson's transfer record was probably the best of all, it was he who was the problem, not the players.

Never post after a drink.

Carney, Sicknote-Naysmith and Badge-kisser Hendrie, 'nuff said and in your own words:-

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[Chali 2na]

You've got to be kidding me.

I didnt say they were comparable as players - please read the post before you respond.

I said we were going in the right direction: good, young, passionate players with good potential.

 

[Chali 2na]

You've got to be kidding me.

Also, it seemed earlier in the thread you struggled with the definition of "straw man"

This post is a good example of such.

 

[Revolution]

Don’t think Clough thought it was that bad.

Clough has form for signing injured and unfit players and ignoring the possible consequences. It's one of his big weaknesses as a manager. Coutts, Wallace and Higdon are three such examples.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Warnock was in my lifetime, and I can't agree that he had a better record in the transfer market.
You point out that he took us to the premier league, you fail to mention that it took him 7 years, he was also very well backed (amongst the best in the division) the season we went up - If Wilder had these conditions I dare say he'd have got us up too, probabaly faster.

I knew it wouldn't be long before Warnock was brought up for comparison. As usual, personal dislike for the guy tends to cloud judgement but you need to consider his dealings first. He sold players for millions to keep the club afloat (Devlin, Quinn, Bent, Woodhouse) and built a team composed of youth and misfits signed for peanuts which went on to challenge for three titles in that famous season. That team cost less than £1m so I don't see how you can say anyone's record in the transfer market was better than that. That was in his third season by the way which is the one coming up for CW now. Lets see eh.

 

[Chali 2na]

I knew it wouldn't be long before Warnock was brought up for comparison. As usual, personal dislike for the guy tends to cloud judgement

You're jumping to conclusions....again.

I loved Warnock, he is one of 2 competent managers I've witnessed in the 20 years I've been watching - there's no personal dislike from me, quite the opposite in fact.

but you need to consider his dealings first. He sold players for millions to keep the club afloat (Devlin, Quinn, Bent, Woodhouse) and built a team composed of youth and misfits signed for peanuts which went on to challenge for three titles in that famous season. That team cost less than £1m so I don't see how you can say anyone's record in the transfer market was better than that.

That season was remarkable, and if we were only reflecting on said season, I'd have to agree that Warnock has a superior transfer record.

Were not just talking about one season though, we're talking about his whole tenure - you can't cherry pick.

Warnock certainly made some astute signings, but he also signed some complete dross (the promotion season is a good example of both)

My argument was that in terms of good/bad signing ratios, Wilder's is better.

That was in his third season by the way which is the one coming up for CW now. Lets see eh.

Well if you're a fair reflection of our fan base, he need not bother - if he doesn't sign the next Deane, Currie or Jagielka he's rubbish by the sounds of it.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Well if you're a fair reflection of our fan base, he need not bother - if he doesn't sign the next Deane, Currie or Jagielka he's rubbish by the sounds of it.

Now you're the one putting words into people's mouths. I've already stated my support for Wilder but also said I'm not getting carried away yet. A L1 title and mid-table in the Championship is a start but it's what comes next which will decide whether he deserves to join Harris, Bassett and Warnock as our most successful managers in the past 50 years. Now I appreciate that the bed-wetters will accuse me of being a Wilder-hater by daring to say things like this but he's not the finished article yet.

What he does with Brooks next season could lift the kid into the Currie/Deane/Jagielka bracket and this alone could be his defining point. The players you mentioned will probably keep us where we are for a while but that's about it.

 

[Balham]

Warnock certainly made some astute signings, but he also signed some complete dross (the promotion season is a good example of both)

My argument was that in terms of good/bad signing ratios, Wilder's is better

Bringing Robson back into it: he did sign good players but the wages he was allowed to offer them were ridiculous and that created a rod for Blackwell's back when it came to restructuring the squad. The fact that Blackwell chose to piss his budget up the wall on poor signings (Henderson for TWO MILLION POUNDS) exacerbated matters.

I've just conducted some highly scientific research into our permanent signings (limited to those who played for the first team) and have bucketed them as good/average/bad by manager looking at fee relative to budget at the time and impact of the player (so Adams spending his entire budget on Neill Collins, for example, is classed as a bad signing but Wilder gets away with Hanson being an average signing owing to the circumstances).

Robson 4 good /1 average /2 bad with that huge caveat on wages
Blackwell 4/8/6
Adams 0/1/1
Wilson 3/6/6
Weir 0/3/4
Clough 5/6/6
Adkins 1/0/2
Wilder 10/9/4

The other thing to note is the sheer number of players Wilder has been able to bring in. He's been here two years but is well above the next highest (Blackwell, who was here for 2.5 years). Wilder is also the only manager with good signings being the biggest category (Fleck, O'Connell, Duffy, Wright, Clarke, Stevens, Baldock, Stearman, L Evans and Donaldson in case you were interested). There is a slight concern for me that 3 of the 4 Wilder signings I'd class as bad happened last season while the majority of the goods were in League One - he's not as effective at Championship level although relative budget is probably fundamentally responsible for that.

 

[Chali 2na]

Now you're the one putting words into people's mouths.

That's not true actually, I'm putting your own words into your mouth:

"Wilder's signings but with a handful of exceptions they have in the main been rubbish"

"He will have to sharpen up his transfer dealings though because unless he comes up with a Currie, Deane or Jagielka it [promotion] aint going to happen."

I've already stated my support for Wilder but also said I'm not getting carried away yet. A L1 title and mid-table in the Championship is a start but it's what comes next which will decide whether he deserves to join Harris, Bassett and Warnock as our most successful managers in the past 50 years.

I see you've swiftly moved the goal posts from 'best transfer record of my lifetime' to 'most successful managers in the past 50 years'

I'm not lucky enough to have seen any of our pre-Warnock mangers, so I cant comment. I'll just repeat that Wilder has the best transfer record in my lifetime...

Now I appreciate that the bed-wetters will accuse me of being a Wilder-hater by daring to say things like this but he's not the finished article yet.

I wouldn't accuse you of being a Wilder hater. I would say you have unrealistic expectations though, personally.

What he does with Brooks next season could lift the kid into the Currie/Deane/Jagielka bracket and this alone could be his defining point. The players you mentioned will probably keep us where we are for a while but that's about it.

A prime example of your unreasonably high expectations methinks.

 

[Chali 2na]

Bringing Robson back into it: he did sign good players but the wages he was allowed to offer them were ridiculous and that created a rod for Blackwell's back when it came to restructuring the squad. The fact that Blackwell chose to piss his budget up the wall on poor signings (Henderson for TWO MILLION POUNDS) exacerbated matters.

I've just conducted some highly scientific research into our permanent signings (limited to those who played for the first team) and have bucketed them as good/average/bad by manager looking at fee relative to budget at the time and impact of the player (so Adams spending his entire budget on Neill Collins, for example, is classed as a bad signing but Wilder gets away with Hanson being an average signing owing to the circumstances).

Robson 4 good /1 average /2 bad with that huge caveat on wages
Blackwell 4/8/6
Adams 0/1/1
Wilson 3/6/6
Weir 0/3/4
Clough 5/6/6
Adkins 1/0/2
Wilder 10/9/4

The other thing to note is the sheer number of players Wilder has been able to bring in. He's been here two years but is well above the next highest (Blackwell, who was here for 2.5 years). Wilder is also the only manager with good signings being the biggest category (Fleck, O'Connell, Duffy, Wright, Clarke, Stevens, Baldock, Stearman, L Evans and Donaldson in case you were interested). There is a slight concern for me that 3 of the 4 Wilder signings I'd class as bad happened last season while the majority of the goods were in League One - he's not as effective at Championship level although relative budget is probably fundamentally responsible for that.

Good research mate, I think it nicely illustrates the point I was trying to make.

 

[snootyfenooty]

That's not true actually, I'm putting your own words into your mouth:

"Wilder's signings but with a handful of exceptions they have in the main been rubbish"

"He will have to sharpen up his transfer dealings though because unless he comes up with a Currie, Deane or Jagielka it [promotion] aint going to happen."



I see you've swiftly moved the goal posts from 'best transfer record of my lifetime' to 'most successful managers in the past 50 years'

I'm not lucky enough to have seen any of our pre-Warnock mangers, so I cant comment. I'll just repeat that Wilder has the best transfer record in my lifetime...



I wouldn't accuse you of being a Wilder hater. I would say you have unrealistic expectations though, personally.



A prime example of your unreasonably high expectations methinks.

You're so far up your own arse it's not true. The only comparisons you've got with Wilder are the recent garbage we've had in charge so it's no surprise you're all giddy. As for Warnock, by my reckoning you was 4 y.o. when he came along so I think we can disregard your expert judgement on him too. Wait until you've had another 40 years watching them and you might have something to back up your claims.

 

[Chali 2na]

You're so far up your own arse it's not true.

Based on what? You being perpetually wrong?

The only comparisons you've got with Wilder are the recent garbage we've had in charge so it's no surprise you're all giddy.

Yeah, my mistake. I'll make sure I'm in 50 odd next time we have a debate.

As for Warnock, by my reckoning you was 4 y.o. when he came along so I think we can disregard your expert judgement on him too. Wait until you've had another 40 years watching them and you might have something to back up your claims.

Based on this discussion, my knowledge of football at 4 years old wasn't far off the level yours is now.

Essentially, you're trying to marginalise my argument because of my age - a diversionary tactic, which tells me you're running out of steam...

 

[snootyfenooty]

Based on what?

Your inability to acknowledge any point of view other than your own.

Based on this discussion, my knowledge of football at 4 years old wasn't far off the level yours is now.

Very funny but kind of confirms my point above.

 

[I should coco]

You're so far up your own arse it's not true.

A bit under the belt that, given that he only quoted some of the sillier things you've said.

I get your point about Warnock's record being proven by ultimately gaining promotion for us. The trouble is he fluffed the chance to build on this and exhibited more poor transfers in the 2007 JTW. Buying Fahti and Shelton was a dreadful waste of the admittedly small budget, he'd been given.

So far Wilder has got us promoted one division albeit from a lower base, which is all Warnock ultimately achieved, despite the semi finals. The jury remains out on CW, but after just 2 full seasons he has revamped the squad and established us in a higher division. Personally I'd say that is clear proof of competent transfer activity.

 

[Chali 2na]

Your inability to acknowledge any point of view other than your own.

I certainly can acknowledge other people's point of views, just not stupid ones.

My point of view is (and was) Chris Wilder has the best record in the transfer market of any managers in my lifetime - I've given up on trying to get a response from you

Very funny but kind of confirms my point above.

It was very much tongue in cheek, but congratulations on finally confirming a point.

 

[Chali 2na]

The jury remains out on CW, but after just 2 full seasons he has revamped the squad and established us in a higher division. Personally I'd say that is clear proof of competent transfer activity.

Very true, the revamp especially, considering the side he inherited. He did quite a remarkable job.

 

[snootyfenooty]

A bit under the belt that, given that he only quoted some of the sillier things you've said.

Blimey, as far as rebukes go that's about as mild as you can get.

My point of view is (and was) Chris Wilder has the best record in the transfer market of any managers in my lifetime - I've given up on trying to get a response from you

I think I already acknowledged that. It's the comparisons with the ones you have no knowledge of (Warnock and backwards) I was attempting to educate you about.

 

[Chali 2na]

I think I already acknowledged that

Where?

It's the comparisons with the ones you have no knowledge of (Warnock and backwards) I was attempting to educate you about.

I haven't compared Wilder to any manager before Warnock - you did.

Also, my comparisons only extended to their transfer records; not managerial ability. Considering you claim above that I was right, and that you acknowledge Wilder's is superior, I'm struggling to see where I need education?

 

[snootyfenooty]

Where?

Does this exchange answer your question? Your attention span seems to be affecting you.

All I was trying to do was point out that Wilder has a better record in the transfer market than our other recent managers- a fact you can admit at any time.

Well if you put him up against the recent dross plus Robson and Blackwell then of course he has.

I then extended the comparison to before this mini era to introduce some perspective to the discussion.

 

[Chali 2na]

Does this exchange answer your question? Your attention span seems to be affecting you.

Well considering during that exchange, you make no mention of Warnock, then no, it clearly doesn't answer my question.

Thanks for your concern about my attention span, though, maybe worry about your own?

I then extended the comparison to before this mini era to introduce some perspective to the discussion.

It was for perspective?

There was me thinking you were just dodging and swerving...

 

[Redhead]

Why Sadly? Wilder will pick them if they are good enough for the 1st team

Sadly for the two boys.

Just when they should be playing competitive games they will train with the first team and play meaningless u23 fixtures when what they need is first team games. Where ever that may be.

Heneghan played 1 first team game and 3 u23games last season. That is not enough. Carothers, not much more.

If the manager doesn’t think that any young players are ready then they should be out on loan at what ever level to play competitive football.

 

[Silent Blade]

Sadly for the two boys.

Just when they should be playing competitive games they will train with the first team and play meaningless u23 fixtures when what they need is first team games. Where ever that may be.

Heneghan played 1 first team game and 3 u23games last season. That is not enough. Carothers, not much more.

If the manager doesn’t think that any young players are ready then they should be out on loan at what ever level to play competitive football.

The manager would always pick his best team and aim for promotion. If he doesnt do that by giving young players a run in the first team then he is letting the club and the fans down.

 

[Redhead]

The manager would always pick his best team and aim for promotion. If he doesnt do that by giving young players a run in the first team then he is letting the club and the fans down.

That is exactly my point. If the manager does not think they are ready they should be loaned out.

What I disagree with is when a young player is only training with the first team and only playing a handful of games.
Young players should be going out on loan to learn their trade.

 

[BushBlade]

The manager would always pick his best team and aim for promotion. If he doesnt do that by giving young players a run in the first team then he is letting the club and the fans down.

That’s only justifiable if we have a realistic chance of promotion. Denying kids an opportunity to develop so that we finish 7th instead of 11th (for example) is too short sighted, given our finances. We’re not going to be buying top players in this league in the foreseeable future so we have to develop players, whether they’re from the lower leagues or from the youth team. It’s part of ‘building the team’ which we have to do because we can’t afford to buy a team like Wolves did.

But CW, AK and the academy coaches have to believe that a youth player has the potential to be better than the player currently in possession of the shirt, or there’s no point developing him. It’s not easy and sometimes we’ll get it wrong.

 

[BushBlade]

Sadly for the two boys.

Just when they should be playing competitive games they will train with the first team and play meaningless u23 fixtures when what they need is first team games. Where ever that may be.

Heneghan played 1 first team game and 3 u23games last season. That is not enough. Carothers, not much more.

If the manager doesn’t think that any young players are ready then they should be out on loan at what ever level to play competitive football.

Did Heneghan and Carruthers play well enough in the u23s to justify being promoted to the first team? From what I’ve heard they haven’t really trained on.

Loaning players is a good idea providing you can find a club that wants them that will teach them properly. I’m sure there are certain clubs/managers that we wouldn’t want to send kids on loan to. We’ve got better coaches than most clubs in the leagues below so you’re always having to balance the benefits of getting game time against the disadvantages of poor coaching, or being influenced by players with bad attitudes.

 

[Silent Blade]

That is exactly my point. If the manager does not think they are ready they should be loaned out.

What I disagree with is when a young player is only training with the first team and only playing a handful of games.
Young players should be going out on loan to learn their trade.

It is now more difficult for clubs to decide which players should be loaned out as no outfield players are allowed to be loaned out after the transfer window is shut in August and in January. The transfer window shuts in August 9th this year and how will Wilder know there wont be an injury crisis between August 9th and January 1st? Nearly 21 weeks is a long time!

 

[BushBlade]

It is now more difficult for clubs to decide which players should be loaned out as no outfield players are allowed to be loaned out after the transfer window is shut in August and in January. The transfer window shuts in August 9th this year and how will Wilder know there wont be an injury crisis between August 9th and January 1st? Nearly 21 weeks is a long time!

True, if Whiteman hadn’t been on loan he may have got an opportunity between when Couttsy was injured and the JTW. I’m not saying he would have been good enough but we’ll never know. Rashford wasn’t rated and only got a game because of an injury during the warm up (and only got on the bench in the first place because of injuries).

 

[Redhead]

Did Heneghan and Carruthers play well enough in the u23s to justify being promoted to the first team? From what I’ve heard they haven’t really trained on.

Loaning players is a good idea providing you can find a club that wants them that will teach them properly. I’m sure there are certain clubs/managers that we wouldn’t want to send kids on loan to. We’ve got better coaches than most clubs in the leagues below so you’re always having to balance the benefits of getting game time against the disadvantages of poor coaching, or being influenced by players with bad attitudes.

At 19 or 20 the best bit of coaching is playing against players who want to win every game, players who have mortgages to pay and supporters that will tell you have had a shit game even if that shit game was in the National North League on a shiny pitch.

Not by playing some Watford 16 year old at Vickerage Road. As nice as Vickerage Road is.