Desso

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1danewhitehouse said:
I’ll have a bash although I suspect the answer should come from someone more pro-Desso than me (I’m relatively neutral given my lack of knowledge of the cost benefit analysis).
Now I’ll ask a couple of questions:


1. Do you know that if we hadn’t spent the money on the Desso, it could have been spent on the playing squad under SCMP? Well why wouldn't it? In leagues one and two owners can inject cash into the club unlike in the championship


2. Would you have had faith in Adkins and Clough getting us promoted if their budget for the year had been increased by around £1million? In hindsight you have to say no, but there has to be more chance of keeping or bringing quality players into the club.

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3. Do you know the comparative maintenance costs of the Desso compared to the old pitch? Couldn't tell you to the last pound but long term a Desso will work out cheaper I don't see where anyone is arguing otherwise.


4. Do you know how much money we lose when a home game is postponed because of an unplayable pitch? Again not to the last pound but the game still has to be played it does not go away. Bramall lane has had undersoil heating for years i'm struggling to think of the last time a game at the lane was postponed due to freezing but that would be same for a Desso. How many games have been postponed due to a water logged pitch in the last ten years say ?


The reason I ask number 3 and 4 is that for all we know, the Desso pitch might pay for itself in a few years time. My understanding is that in a big company, before investing large sums on a project like this, the accountants will usually be tasked with calculating the payback period of such an investment, considering the opportunity cost etc.
Click to expand...
 



I’ll have a bash although I suspect the answer should come from someone more pro-Desso than me (I’m relatively neutral given my lack of knowledge of the cost benefit analysis).
Now I’ll ask a couple of questions:


1. Do you know that if we hadn’t spent the money on the Desso, it could have been spent on the playing squad under SCMP? Well why wouldn't it? In leagues one and two owners can inject cash into the club unlike in the championship


Because of the 65% rule. Say the owners pump £3million into the club- only 65% can be used on players meaning the remainder could be used on something like the Desso as it can't be spent on players. That's my interpretation. I could be wrong. I'm sure someone can correct me.




2. Would you have had faith in Adkins and Clough getting us promoted if their budget for the year had been increased by around £1million? In hindsight you have to say no, but there has to be more chance of keeping or bringing quality players into the club.

Agreed.



3. Do you know the comparative maintenance costs of the Desso compared to the old pitch? Couldn't tell you to the last pound but long term a Desso will work out cheaper I don't see where anyone is arguing otherwise.

I don't think they are specifically arguing otherwise but this was a point that if, over time, the Desso will pay for itself and eventually save money, then surely it is a good investment?



4. Do you know how much money we lose when a home game is postponed because of an unplayable pitch? Again not to the last pound but the game still has to be played it does not go away. Bramall lane has had undersoil heating for years i'm struggling to think of the last time a game at the lane was postponed due to freezing but that would be same for a Desso. How many games have been postponed due to a water logged pitch in the last ten years say ?

I can't be sure but think we missed a home game in 2014 around the time we played Fulham in the cup because of a waterlogged pitch. I think that was what started the discussion about a better pitch. The Fulham game was in danger and we were in danger of losing money as it was on TV etc.



The reason I ask number 3 and 4 is that for all we know, the Desso pitch might pay for itself in a few years time. My understanding is that in a big company, before investing large sums on a project like this, the accountants will usually be tasked with calculating the payback period of such an investment, considering the opportunity cost etc.
 
Bert said:
So every player we've sold we practically gave away and no doubt we paid double for those that we signed because the whole football world knows what mugs we are?
Right...
Click to expand...



This subject is bound to contain some subjectivity and is only ever really going to be about our own interpretations and perceptions of players, their values, what was “good business” etc. but I’ll give it a go.


In my time of watching United I have witnessed


Sale of Deane to Leeds- Both PL clubs at the time- this sale effectively sealed our relegation from the PL.



Sale of Deane and Fjortoft on the same day. Don’t think we got more than a million for either. Absolutely criminal and cost us any chance of promotion.


Beattie flu- selling an on fire striker for less than we paid for him,


Throwing Kyle Walker, one of the best players we will ever produce into a BOGOF deal with Naughton- Again, absolutely criminal.


Slew- Well, that one worked out OK on the basis he didn’t develop into a good player.


Lowton- If the £3million figure mentioned had any truth in it, that was a more acceptable sale but still, the loss of a very good young player.


But since the prince came on board and we “no longer have to sell our young stars” we’ve had


Maguire- Absolute lynchpin. OK, so he wanted to go. But he was contracted for another year and if he went at that, we would still have been entitled to compensation. He might well have been the difference for promotion. An integral player, the sale of whom we never recovered from all season trying to patch up with Alcock, McGahey, McCarthy, McEveley etc. All for around £2million when we “didn’t have to sell”. As I said earlier in the thread, Scunny turned down £4million for Van Veen who will never be worth as much as Maguire and he’s not as important to them as Maguire was for us.



Murphy- The one quality player Adkins got to inherit. A massive squad of misfits with poor fitness and bad attitudes but we had one player who was a match-winner. Who was exciting to watch. He’d just signed a new 3 year deal 6 months earlier. Sold for around £1.7 million to a good championship side. The pigs paid Middlesborough £5million for Adam Reach to play the same position at a similar level. Is Reach significantly better (around 3 times better) than Murphy? Is Van Veen worth more than double what Murphy is?


Adams- OK, so he wasn’t a key first team player (still, 2nd top scorer the previous season and 19 years old mind). Lookman sold to Everton for around £11million. Adams sold to Birmingham for around £1.8 million. Again, no two players are exactly the same but had Lookman done anything to suggest he was worth more than 6 times as much as Adams, a teenager who had scored double figures the previous season and was being capped at England U20 level? Again, bearing in mind “we don’t have to sell our young stars”.



DCL- One of the more exciting young prospects albeit he’d struggled to make an impact at first team level so far. Still, a forward who was over 6 foot with a great leap, decent touch and a yard of pace and being called up to England youth squads. Sold for £1.5 millionish. Time will tell how this one turns out I guess but it’s not like we got mega-bucks for him,


Ramsdale- England youth ‘keeper dubbed “the best since Hodgkinson” by some of our resident academy watchers sold for around a million. Again, time will tell but I would say it’s another of those young stars that we don’t have to sell being sold and again, not for mega-bucks.


As I say, a lot of it is subjective when talking about a players’ worth. What I will say is this though. We got about £4million or so combined for Walker and Maguire. How much do you think that pair alone is now worth on the market?


As an old gent on blades mad always said, “it’s all abart opinions” but I struggle to see how anyone can be of the opinion that we’ve been anything other than a soft touch on player sales over the years. When have we dug our heels in and kept a player? When have we got a huge fee for a player? And how can anyone believe that constantly and publicly stating “there is nothing we can do”, “we are powerless to stop it” etc. does anything other than encourage higher placed clubs to come and try their luck with cheeky offers?
 
1danewhitehouse said:
I’ll have a bash although I suspect the answer should come from someone more pro-Desso than me (I’m relatively neutral given my lack of knowledge of the cost benefit analysis).
Now I’ll ask a couple of questions:


1. Do you know that if we hadn’t spent the money on the Desso, it could have been spent on the playing squad under SCMP? Well why wouldn't it? In leagues one and two owners can inject cash into the club unlike in the championship


Because of the 65% rule. Say the owners pump £3million into the club- only 65% can be used on players meaning the remainder could be used on something like the Desso as it can't be spent on players. That's my interpretation. I could be wrong. I'm sure someone can correct me.





2. Would you have had faith in Adkins and Clough getting us promoted if their budget for the year had been increased by around £1million? In hindsight you have to say no, but there has to be more chance of keeping or bringing quality players into the club.

Agreed.



3. Do you know the comparative maintenance costs of the Desso compared to the old pitch? Couldn't tell you to the last pound but long term a Desso will work out cheaper I don't see where anyone is arguing otherwise.

I don't think they are specifically arguing otherwise but this was a point that if, over time, the Desso will pay for itself and eventually save money, then surely it is a good investment?



4. Do you know how much money we lose when a home game is postponed because of an unplayable pitch? Again not to the last pound but the game still has to be played it does not go away. Bramall lane has had undersoil heating for years i'm struggling to think of the last time a game at the lane was postponed due to freezing but that would be same for a Desso. How many games have been postponed due to a water logged pitch in the last ten years say ?

I can't be sure but think we missed a home game in 2014 around the time we played Fulham in the cup because of a waterlogged pitch. I think that was what started the discussion about a better pitch. The Fulham game was in danger and we were in danger of losing money as it was on TV etc.



The reason I ask number 3 and 4 is that for all we know, the Desso pitch might pay for itself in a few years time. My understanding is that in a big company, before investing large sums on a project like this, the accountants will usually be tasked with calculating the payback period of such an investment, considering the opportunity cost etc.
Click to expand...
The postponed game in 2014 was v Scunthorpe I don't think it would have been played on a Desso ......
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sheffield-united-forced-postpone-game-4883322
 
1danewhitehouse said:
This subject is bound to contain some subjectivity and is only ever really going to be about our own interpretations and perceptions of players, their values, what was “good business” etc. but I’ll give it a go.


In my time of watching United I have witnessed


Sale of Deane to Leeds- Both PL clubs at the time- this sale effectively sealed our relegation from the PL.



Sale of Deane and Fjortoft on the same day. Don’t think we got more than a million for either. Absolutely criminal and cost us any chance of promotion.


Beattie flu- selling an on fire striker for less than we paid for him,


Throwing Kyle Walker, one of the best players we will ever produce into a BOGOF deal with Naughton- Again, absolutely criminal.


Slew- Well, that one worked out OK on the basis he didn’t develop into a good player.


Lowton- If the £3million figure mentioned had any truth in it, that was a more acceptable sale but still, the loss of a very good young player.


But since the prince came on board and we “no longer have to sell our young stars” we’ve had


Maguire- Absolute lynchpin. OK, so he wanted to go. But he was contracted for another year and if he went at that, we would still have been entitled to compensation. He might well have been the difference for promotion. An integral player, the sale of whom we never recovered from all season trying to patch up with Alcock, McGahey, McCarthy, McEveley etc. All for around £2million when we “didn’t have to sell”. As I said earlier in the thread, Scunny turned down £4million for Van Veen who will never be worth as much as Maguire and he’s not as important to them as Maguire was for us.



Murphy- The one quality player Adkins got to inherit. A massive squad of misfits with poor fitness and bad attitudes but we had one player who was a match-winner. Who was exciting to watch. He’d just signed a new 3 year deal 6 months earlier. Sold for around £1.7 million to a good championship side. The pigs paid Middlesborough £5million for Adam Reach to play the same position at a similar level. Is Reach significantly better (around 3 times better) than Murphy? Is Van Veen worth more than double what Murphy is?


Adams- OK, so he wasn’t a key first team player (still, 2nd top scorer the previous season and 19 years old mind). Lookman sold to Everton for around £11million. Adams sold to Birmingham for around £1.8 million. Again, no two players are exactly the same but had Lookman done anything to suggest he was worth more than 6 times as much as Adams, a teenager who had scored double figures the previous season and was being capped at England U20 level? Again, bearing in mind “we don’t have to sell our young stars”.



DCL- One of the more exciting young prospects albeit he’d struggled to make an impact at first team level so far. Still, a forward who was over 6 foot with a great leap, decent touch and a yard of pace and being called up to England youth squads. Sold for £1.5 millionish. Time will tell how this one turns out I guess but it’s not like we got mega-bucks for him,


Ramsdale- England youth ‘keeper dubbed “the best since Hodgkinson” by some of our resident academy watchers sold for around a million. Again, time will tell but I would say it’s another of those young stars that we don’t have to sell being sold and again, not for mega-bucks.


As I say, a lot of it is subjective when talking about a players’ worth. What I will say is this though. We got about £4million or so combined for Walker and Maguire. How much do you think that pair alone is now worth on the market?


As an old gent on blades mad always said, “it’s all abart opinions” but I struggle to see how anyone can be of the opinion that we’ve been anything other than a soft touch on player sales over the years. When have we dug our heels in and kept a player? When have we got a huge fee for a player? And how can anyone believe that constantly and publicly stating “there is nothing we can do”, “we are powerless to stop it” etc. does anything other than encourage higher placed clubs to come and try their luck with cheeky offers?
Click to expand...
Agree with all of that but no doubt the usual suspects will defend it at some point, now if pommpey had posted that there would have been an immediate shit storm.
 
metalblade said:
Agree with all of that but no doubt the usual suspects will defend it at some point, now if pommpey had posted that there would have been an immediate shit storm.
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Proving that there is always room for debate, providing everything that leaves your mouth isn't bile against the club.
 
Barney said:
New forum fashion you see. Get with the times...
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See my post above. There was a direct correlation with your gaining the village idiot crown and your, at the time, continued attack on every aspect of the club.

You've become somewhat more balanced, and had your crown stolen. :)
 
alcoblade said:
See my post above. There was a direct correlation with your gaining the village idiot crown and your, at the time, continued attack on every aspect of the club.

You've become somewhat more balanced, and had your crown stolen. :)
Click to expand...


In a pub in Bicester on the way to Oxford, not Sourh East Asia I know, and this has been brought to my attention. Who the **** has stolen his crown?
 



metalblade said:
Agree with all of that but no doubt the usual suspects will defend it at some point, now if pommpey had posted that there would have been an immediate shit storm.
Click to expand...

Sorry Metal. Only just got back from London, so largely missed today's shenanighans and tip top humour from Bert, Sean and alco. Lol. They fuuuuneee.

And thanks 1DW for effectively summing up what a crock of shit our player retention policy and hard bargaining exactly isn't. Which stinks of easy, fast cash to plug gaping financial holes caused by rank incompetence.

As said, McCabe's farting about (either he or) HRH pumping cash into the club remains to be seen to be a kept promise. I hope he has witnessed what this club can do with the right manager and the retention of talent, although I hope certain posters will be forced to agree with me that this squad may struggle against over 50% of the Championship's current sides, and that's not including those coming down from the PL.

pommpey
 
Bert said:
Bert would have to disagree pugggwash is just obsessively misguided rather than an idiot.
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After learning no better after year upon year of hating something, I don't think "misguided" realy does it justice.
 
pommpey said:
Sorry Metal. Only just got back from London, so largely missed today's shenanighans and tip top humour from Bert, Sean and alco. Lol. They fuuuuneee.

And thanks 1DW for effectively summing up what a crock of shit our player retention policy and hard bargaining exactly isn't. Which stinks of easy, fast cash to plug gaping financial holes caused by rank incompetence.

As said, McCabe's farting about (either he or) HRH pumping cash into the club remains to be seen to be a kept promise. I hope he has witnessed what this club can do with the right manager and the retention of talent, although I hope certain posters will be forced to agree with me that this squad may struggle against over 50% of the Championship's current sides, and that's not including those coming down from the PL.

pommpey
Click to expand...


Well done pommpers, you've had to stop being negative this season due to our league position......... so you've moved onto next season.
 
Bert said:
Well done pommpers, you've had to stop being negative this season due to our league position......... so you've moved onto next season.
Click to expand...

You're entirely convinced they (he or HRH) will invest in the club when promoted, then?

pommpey
 
metalblade said:
The postponed game in 2014 was v Scunthorpe I don't think it would have been played on a Desso ......
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sheffield-united-forced-postpone-game-4883322
Click to expand...


Fair enough if that’s the case. I thought one had been postponed for a waterlogged pitch and remember the Fulham game being in doubt and the pitch being awful that day. Funnily enough circumstances have conspired against us this season despite the Desso and getting out of the cups early as we’ve had Fleetwood, Millwall, Oxford and Coventry games rearranged because our opponents have had the cheek to remain in the cups.
 
I should coco said:
How many times?

McCabe said the Murphy money would be re-invested and it was; on wages.

There are countless threads (that I certainly can't be arsed to look for) that moan about this. Typically the 'antis' forget or (deliberately ignore), the fact that wages are so high and massively eclipse transfer fees over the life of a player's contract. They want all 'fees in' to be spent on new players.

When pushed as to who funds the wages, the final answer is usually that it's McCabe's own fault for stepping forward to be Chairman.

Somehow he should 'put more in'
or the magic money tree,
or elves,
or the tooth fairy.

It is nothing to do with the Desso.
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It's amazing how many seemingly reasonably intelligent people either reuse, or can't grasp this.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
It's amazing how many seemingly reasonably intelligent people either reuse, or can't grasp this.

UTB
Click to expand...

Yep. And it paid dividends didn't?

One talented goalscoring winger to pay the wages of a team full of duffers.

Reasonably intelligent?

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
Yep. And it paid dividends didn't?

One talented goalscoring winger to pay the wages of a team full of duffers.

Reasonably intelligent?

pommpey
Click to expand...
Which says everything about the incredibly poor recruitment of the last few years / decade.

The bit that isn't grasped, generally by people like you who refuse to inject even a pocketful of change into the club, criticising a man who puts millions in every year, because he doesn't put even more millions in.

Everyone gets it that he's made bad decisions. I've been just as critical about that. But your continued bore fest is just pushing on a open door. Change the fucking record, for God's sake.

And yes, I'm a lot bigger Blade than you are. :)

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Which says everything about the incredibly poor recruitment of the last few years / decade.

The bit that isn't grasped, generally by people like you who refuse to inject even a pocketful of change into the club, criticising a man who puts millions in every year, because he doesn't put even more millions in.

Everyone gets it that he's made bad decisions. I've been just as critical about that. But your continued bore fest is just pushing on a open door. Change the fucking record, for God's sake.

And yes, I'm a lot bigger Blade than you are. :)

UTB
Click to expand...

Why don't you remove your tongue from McCabe's britches once in a while, alco? I'm starting to think that Bert is actually McCabe and Sean and you are part of the McCabe clan.

Being a supporter hasn't got any 'rules and regulations' so dry your eyes and man up, eh? There are plenty who criticize who put less than your hundreds of thousands into the club (because you make out you invest so much) and plenty who put more than you. All have opinions and are entitled to them. Show me where there is some sort of code for this, except in your upset little melon. I bet you don't half stab those keys hard whilst trying not to cry, don't you? And meanwhile, ungrateful wretches like me put horrid comments up on an internet fucking forum, like McCabe or any of his cabal ever read it. If it bothers you that much, either ignore, or there are options which make it so you can't see my comments. Make the choice, change your record. It's you who brought this back up, and you or Sean keep on bringing it back up. The gashness of your argument fails to persuade me otherwise. Live with it.

And no. You're not just a bigger Blade. You're an even bigger bellend than I will ever be. I'll live with that.

pommpey
 
Rodley said:
The shift of emphasis to next season is laughable. You know you've drifted from miserable old duffer to plain old trolling when you're already moaning about a season which hasn't started yet.
Click to expand...

Nope. Read it again. McCabe and HRH did make some or other gesture that they'd invest big if we were promoted.

I am hoping that promise will be fulfilled, because I am certain we are going up and we will need squad strengthening in the league above, for certain. If you've forgotten they said that, then here is the reminder.

They did.

pommpey
 



Does McCabe put millions a year into the club? -answer....Yes.

Has the Prince invested millions....Yes.

Does the Desso pitch allow players to play fast, passing football easier? Yes.

Has the club sold players over the last 10 years? Yes....and how many of them have gone on to be sold for more than we sold them for?so far I can't think of any, Walker and Maguire may be the first In those 10 years.

Are there many businesses in the world where a person takes a few million of their own hard earned pounds, and gives it to another person/group of people to spend and then have zero say on what is bought?...probably not. Would I do that? Absolutely not.

Will certain folk find something else to complain about once one argument is put to bed by the players/Manager/owners? Most definitely.


There, I think that's the thread pretty much clarified.
 
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