Complete overhaul needed

[SouthportBlade]

The interesting bit for me is the player vs system question. Whilst teams are much wiser to our style of play which has negated the impact, part of the reason for our demise comes from players catastrophic drop off in form.

352 formations are geared up towards creating downs the flanks, particularly with a flat 3.

Stevens form has dropped off a cliff & Baldocks shortcomings going forward have been horribly exposed (amongst other factors) has rendered our ability to attack and create null and void.

Next year RND and Bogle as starting fullbacks potentially gives us a new lease of life down the wings, if we pair this with a couple of new midfielders (including a Duffy type / No 10 type, maybe Freeman?) could reinvigorate our attacking fortunes

The other point is we will have a new manager, and I'd wager whoever is probably isn't going to be a disciple of the Overlapping Centre Back school of thought. So even if we retain the 352 formation we are likely to see a very different team next year.

 

[Gretsch Blade]

I'm going to stick up for Furious George as he's the only one who looks anywhere close to trying his hardest out there at the mo...

I think therein lies the problem, sometimes a player can try too hard in order to get the rest of the team going. Can't fault that. But the obvious lack of team support and technical skills doesn't solve the issue.
Much of this is due to availability for selection (injury or banned) but in reality it's down to what you've been coached from what players you have at your disposal for first team selection. That's another can of worms....

 

[Jean Luc]

The interesting bit for me is the player vs system question. Whilst teams are much wiser to our style of play which has negated the impact, part of the reason for our demise comes from players catastrophic drop off in form.

352 formations are geared up towards creating downs the flanks, particularly with a flat 3.

Stevens form has dropped off a cliff & Baldocks shortcomings going forward have been horribly exposed (amongst other factors) has rendered our ability to attack and create null and void.

Next year RND and Bogle as starting fullbacks potentially gives us a new lease of life down the wings, if we pair this with a couple of new midfielders (including a Duffy type / No 10 type, maybe Freeman?) could reinvigorate our attacking fortunes

The other point is we will have a new manager, and I'd wager whoever is probably isn't going to be a disciple of the Overlapping Centre Back school of thought. So even if we retain the 352 formation we are likely to see a very different team next year.

Some of the more negative thoughts from ‘United’ fans on here are appalling. Chris Wilder and this team have given us the longest sustained successful and enjoyable period in living memory. Only TC in the 1970’s and Dean/Agana/Basset teams compare and not favourably. We owe these players a great debt for giving us our City and our pride back and the cursing and calls to sack and abandon them is disgraceful. There are a number of factors which have caused the failures this season and drop off in form is only one of them. Let’s give these boys a chance and wait on the new manager to bring in new ideas and enthusiasm. I can only assume those calling for widespread sackings are teenagers or old men who have lost their memories. Get a grip of yourselves.

 

[DeanLearner'sCat]

If we are having a complete overhaul (I don't think we need one) and buying a whole new midfield/attack (I don't think we can afford to) why, of all the formations we could choose, would we play 4-1-3-2? Why not 4-3-3? 4-4-2?

Or why not play something like the 3-4-1-2 that got us promoted last time we were at Championship level, considering we have many of the same players and several young players who that system would suit?

 

[Yogi]

Don’t understand how you can assess the strikers this season when we literally create, at best, a chance a game. McBurnie and Brewster are proven at Championship level. Throw in McGoldrick and Sharp and I think that’s arguably the strongest strikeforce in the division.

We need a number 10 and a couple of midfielders. Then we need to replace the outgoing players, though IMHO there shouldn’t be any first XI sales apart from Berge.

Needs some real depth and competition adding at centrehalf probably by bringing in a couple of starters and pushing Basham down into a squad role.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Nothings really changed for me, we’re in the same position as was clear in January. We need around 4 new faces in midfield and then to replace who we lose and to replace those we sell.
I’d love to keep Berge but think it’s unlikely if he’s a release clause and I’ve no doubt that Fleck and Norwood would do an perfectly adequate job at Championship level next year but we need to be aiming higher.
If they do not have relegation clauses on their wages, which would surprise me, then they need to be moved on as they’re not worth PL money. If they do and they’re happy to play as part of the squad they have a role to play bringing the next iteration through but they can’t be seen as critical starters. Of course should their performances next season step up and demand they start that’s something else entirely but they aren’t our future. We know they would need replacing if we hope to play above that level.
Defensively we need to know where we are with JoC, Egan and Bash. Bash as with Fleck and Norwood would do a fine job if we keep a back 3 but we need to be looking past him, it doesn’t mean he should be tossed aside just yet. Out of the three I think he’s the best personality to coach and mentor a younger player into that role. JoC will be a huge loss if he is indeed finished so that will be a significant problem to us, and I think Egan would be a colossus back in the Championship but perversely I his role in a 3 is the easiest to replace and upgrade.
At full back we’re set if we keep what we have. Baldock, Bogle as starter and cover are better than any other squad at that level but you would suspect we’d be open to offers on George.
RND is raw but is a championship level left back who’ll improve. He is not peak or even Championship Stevens though. Stevens who knows. If dropping the level restores his confidence then he could be a huge return but he looks broken and done, if there’s interest then maybe a move is best but I suspect he’s not going to be easy to move on. Max Lowe has had a bit of a bum deal I believe.
As with Rammers he’s been thrown in with a constantly changing unit and expected to perform. Incredibly difficult but Lowe’s not got time on his side. As a unit the defence is as good as any relegated side could hope for but we need to replace what we lose and if possible look to improve. Everyone else in the defence is unlikely to be good enough for future consideration so should be replaced if the options make themselves available.
Up front I’ve no concerns at all, should we actually build a midfield who can create something give them half a chance which they’ve not had for 18 months.

 

[Hockey'sBeard]

The big question for me is down to individual players attitude. How many feel they are done here and want a fresh start wherever it is and how many have the determination to give it a go with us in the championship. This is also where we the fans would play some part in players decision if we we were in the stadium and they knew what backing they had

 

[Cyprus Blade]

I think the size of the overhaul will depend on the strength of the new manager's personality. Some of the players are on the way down or just plain not good enough, others however, the problem seems to be in the head (attitude and belief). Psychologically this team seems very damaged and it will take a lot to get out of the habit of losing.

 

[Gretsch Blade]

Some of the more negative thoughts from ‘United’ fans on here are appalling. Chris Wilder and this team have given us the longest sustained successful and enjoyable period in living memory. Only TC in the 1970’s and Dean/Agana/Basset teams compare and not favourably. We owe these players a great debt for giving us our City and our pride back and the cursing and calls to sack and abandon them is disgraceful. There are a number of factors which have caused the failures this season and drop off in form is only one of them. Let’s give these boys a chance and wait on the new manager to bring in new ideas and enthusiasm. I can only assume those calling for widespread sackings are teenagers or old men who have lost their memories. Get a grip of yourselves.

That may be so, but it's the morning after we've just been confirmed 'relegated' from the nations top league, with the lowest goals scored total to date and in an utter whimper (after a terrific year last year when we all anticipated we'd push on).
Yes the last few years have been out of this world. Credit where credit is due. But the same goes for criticism when performances have not been up to standard.
It's a football forum. People are emotional.

 

[Snowflake]

Sorry but past it and become poor is not good enough. They’ve suddenly become poor because they are past it. Said it before: clean sweep with a very large broom.

Rarely works and can lead to all sorts of problems. Move players on but steadily over a year or two.

 

[Snowflake]

Some of the more negative thoughts from ‘United’ fans on here are appalling. Chris Wilder and this team have given us the longest sustained successful and enjoyable period in living memory. Only TC in the 1970’s and Dean/Agana/Basset teams compare and not favourably. We owe these players a great debt for giving us our City and our pride back and the cursing and calls to sack and abandon them is disgraceful. There are a number of factors which have caused the failures this season and drop off in form is only one of them. Let’s give these boys a chance and wait on the new manager to bring in new ideas and enthusiasm. I can only assume those calling for widespread sackings are teenagers or old men who have lost their memories. Get a grip of yourselves.

Just as we should not denigrate what a wonderful experience we have had we should not be hamstrung by sentiment.
To be successful over the next five years none of these players will be here, so we need slowly to replace them.That doesn’t mean they are all immediately abandoned but changes are needed. Yes this group would cope well in the Championship but they would not cope back in the Premiership, so they will have to go sooner rather than later.

 

[BigBed]

If we change the system then we lose Bash. So you’ve answered your own question there Bed.

How do you figure that then????
I'm pretty sure Bash, being able to play defence and midfield, was here prior to us playing the 3-5-2 wasn't he!???
So, back to the original question.....???

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Just as we should not denigrate what a wonderful experience we have had we should not be hamstrung by sentiment.
To be successful over the next five years none of these players will be here, so we need slowly to replace them.That doesn’t mean they are all immediately abandoned but changes are needed. Yes this group would cope well in the Championship but they would not cope back in the Premiership, so they will have to go sooner rather than later.

Which is where we return to personalities and individuals. Out of those players which have the self belief that they belong at Premier League level?
On this years showing both on the pitch and mentally they haven't shown they had that but some may carry it nonetheless . Do they considering themselves strong Championship players who deserve to be starting every week in a team pushing back for promotion? Do they think they've the ability to improve and give the PL another go, or are they happy to play in a top Championship squad going for promotion even if that mean they aren't guaranteed a starting birth? Are they happy to play a large number of games in the squad and accept their dwindling part in our future, able to push, support and mentor those who will eventually carry us forward?
I'd say all the players fit into one of those definitions and if we're looking to build through the ranks those players who fall into the latter category are worth their weight in gold, so long as they are still good enough at the level we're at.
Billy, Bash, and Dids I'd say are mostly likely to fit into that area. Fleck and Norwood will be in their 30's next season so have big choices to make as to where they want to fit but I'd suspect they aren't ready to accept our reality just yet but if I'm wrong and all 5 do have clauses which brings their wages back to our Championship levels and are ready to transition into their new club roles that is also a very strong base of experience from which to build the next iteration of our younger, better squad.
We still have a lot of advantages from the structure which Wilder built, these players understand the fans and the club and what's made us come together. Unless finances or individual ambition dictate, we shouldn't look to throw the babies out with the bath water there are benefits which remain to what we built. The key thing is to knock down where we were weak and rebuild it, but keep what made us able to play so much above the widely accepted ability of the individuals we collected.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

How do you figure that then????
I'm pretty sure Bash, being able to play defence and midfield, was here prior to us playing the 3-5-2 wasn't he!???
So, back to the original question.....???

He's right. If we move away from a back 3, with Bash on the right, then he'd unlikely to be in contention for anything more than a bit part next season.
Those who were suggesting playing him in a 2 with Ampadu this season when Egan and JoC were out really were letting their hearts rule their heads.
Bash shouldn't get a starting role either in defence or midfield in the Championship unless we're playing the back 3 and even then we should be looking to transition someone into his role. He'll be 33 for the start of next season.

 

[Pedro Verde]

we arnt as bad as the table suggests

Are you for real !!!
We are exactly as bad as the table suggests, the table doesnt lie

its apparent what a difference fans make to us especially home games.The percentage of drop off due to lack of push from the fans is hard to measure ,no doubt its had a big effect on our performances

Yes having no fans in the ground doesnt help but it doesnt make up for the fact we have been absoultely dire
Other teams have had to cope without fans its probably hit us harder than most but Im fed up of the excuses being made as to why we are bottom of the table

Let's not dwell on a nightmare season brought about by circumstances beyond our control and of course a lack of quality and depth to our squad not forgetting a lot of injuries to key players.

The only circumstances beyond our control have been no fans (see above) and injuries
To start with the only major injury was JOC, we had the opportunity to replace him we didnt
Fleck and Berge followed, injuries are part of football, we were very fortunate for the previous two seasons we hardly had any. You have to have a squad to cope with players being injured we dont have that squad

What of next season?
We are not a million miles short of having a go next season ,surgery and improvements in certain areas have to be made of course.New manager will know all about us and given the right support should be able to build a squad to have a crack.
We all have opinions on our demise but empty stadiums no doubt is a massive factor with quality a close 2nd.
Midfield is our weakest area it has to be changed

Midfield is a third of the team so to say we are not a million miles away from giving it a go is inaccurate
As well as midfield the whole left side of the team needs improvement
We dont know how the players will react mentally to a season such as this.

Our stats are up there with Leeds for miles covered

So we run around a lot

Some of the more negative thoughts from ‘United’ fans on here are appalling. Chris Wilder and this team have given us the longest sustained successful and enjoyable period in living memory. Only TC in the 1970’s and Dean/Agana/Basset teams compare and not favourably.

Can you tell me why the teams of John Harris and to a lesser extent Basset do not compare favourably to Wilders team
The Harris team had very good creative individual players, flair players and played some great exciting football. I would suggest that Wilders team didnt have anybody in the same class as Currie and Woodward

We owe these players a great debt for giving us our City and our pride back and the cursing and calls to sack and abandon them is disgraceful. There are a number of factors which have caused the failures this season and drop off in form is only one of them. Let’s give these boys a chance and wait on the new manager to bring in new ideas and enthusiasm. I can only assume those calling for widespread sackings are teenagers or old men who have lost their memories. Get a grip of yourselves.

Some of these players have had their chance and need to find other clubs
Thank fuck Lundstram is on his way he should be followed by Stevens, Robinson, McBurnie, Rodwell
Ampadu wont be here he can go and make his mistakes elsewhere

 

[shorehamkid]

I'm going to stick up for Furious George as he's the only one who looks anywhere close to trying his hardest out there at the mo...

what i do'nt like to cross George

 

[adiosmiamigo]

Agree 100% with this post , we arnt as bad as the table suggests its apparent what a difference fans make to us especially home games.The percentage of drop off due to lack of push from the fans is hard to measure ,no doubt its had a big effect on our performances especially at home.
The gap in quality has always been there,the lift fans gives us bridges that gap to a certain degree.
Once we started losing matches( which was from match 1) the confidence slowly drained away bereft of that and the inspiration of fans the writing was on the wall.
Let's not dwell on a nightmare season brought about by circumstances beyond our control and of course a lack of quality and depth to our squad not forgetting a lot of injuries to key players.
What of next season?
We are not a million miles short of having a go next season ,surgery and improvements in certain areas have to be made of course.New manager will know all about us and given the right support should be able to build a squad to have a crack.
We all have opinions on our demise but empty stadiums no doubt is a massive factor with quality a close 2nd.
Midfield is our weakest area it has to be changed with more pace and nous.Our stats are up there with Leeds for miles covered unfortunately we have too many
One paced players in our squad ,pace is massive in football today.

Pace is definitely what we need,in most positions,absolutely agree.

 

[Speedracer]

Ill stick something debatable in, i think Bryan should be retained and played. First of all yesterday he went AWOL for the goal but he has serious pace and pace in defence as well as attack is a tremendous asset. I think with more game time he will prove to be a good player, and remember hes really learning his trade in the hardest league in the world

I agree, I think Bryan gets a bad rap on here but he does have some good qualities that given a good run in the team should come to the fore. Okay he made the wrong choice last night trying to win the ball instead of covering back on their goal, but he had a very decent game other than that & I think he will be very useful in the Championship next season.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I agree, I think Bryan gets a bad rap on here but he does have some good qualities that given a good run in the team should come to the fore. Okay he made the wrong choice last night trying to win the ball instead of covering back on their goal, but he had a very decent game other than that & I think he will be very useful in the Championship next season.

He’s decent support. Coming in for the odd game if needed otherwise covering a bench spot. If he’s happy doing that at his age and for a championship backup players wage then great. If not we can’t keep him. He could definitely earn more and play more elsewhere.

 

[BigBed]

He's right. If we move away from a back 3, with Bash on the right, then he'd unlikely to be in contention for anything more than a bit part next season.
Those who were suggesting playing him in a 2 with Ampadu this season when Egan and JoC were out really were letting their hearts rule their heads.
Bash shouldn't get a starting role either in defence or midfield in the Championship unless we're playing the back 3 and even then we should be looking to transition someone into his role. He'll be 33 for the start of next season.

He might be 33, but it doesnt change the fact he's still our most consistent player!, he's also one of our fittest if not the fittest player in the squad, he plays his heart out and whether we play a back 3 or 4, I'd rather drop Stevens than BASH on current form.
Bash will have a big part to play next season, he's still a very good championship player and deserves respect for what he's done at United, our longest serving player and the ideal player for Sikeri to be learning from.
And also, he's part of a proven back 3 that not to long ago were one of the top 4 defences in the premier league, by far the best in the championship the season before, and the 2 seasons previously, and there's a reason he's still in the team 5years on.

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

Next season we will be a championship team and that has to be the comparison . Not for one minute would we beat Norwich City, they are the yardstick,went down came straight back and with ease. That team last night will not do the same,as for the subs bench, wow, very poor. If we don’t get rid of the majority of this squad we are in for a struggle, all next season.
Just hope the new management team understands what’s required and act quickly. Only my opinion so probably wrong?.

Norwich didn’t have a complete overhaul, a few tweaks but no panic clear out. We should do similar, if you have a mass change of players you are starting from the beginning again and that’s what causes problems. Look what Fulham did last time they went up, they changed almost the entire side, it didn’t work.

 

[HeySethUTB]

Next season we will be a championship team and that has to be the comparison . Not for one minute would we beat Norwich City, they are the yardstick,went down came straight back and with ease. That team last night will not do the same,as for the subs bench, wow, very poor. If we don’t get rid of the majority of this squad we are in for a struggle, all next season.
Just hope the new management team understands what’s required and act quickly. Only my opinion so probably wrong?.

Your opinion isn’t wrong, thats what makes the participating in this forum enjoyable, ultimately we‘re all blades and different opinions allow others to form new ones (in some cases ) or at least see a “bigger picture”.

Agreed this team probably wouldn’t beat an in form Norwich, right at this moment in time, and they are the yardstick. Although a major reason behind there success is they have changed relatively little allowing them to tweak their identify rather than make wholesale changes to it, which in turn, disrupts a multitude of things and unfortunately costs money.

I have already raised the question who do we sign (that has comparable experience/better talent) to replace these players without a huge budget? Its clear to most that we also have limitations to our scouting networks. This is an additional challenge to overcome if we’re to get rid of many of our players.

The financial gamble alone is path well trodden by others in the championship. These teams haven’t had the advantage or foundation of two premier league seasons to base such decisions on, and those teams are now confetti in the bottom half of the championship. Why not try to strike an balance between the two? I.e. keep what we can and add additional quality.

An advantage we have, and I believe is being overlooked is a handful of championship teams will be under embargo and most EFL teams will be tempted given the opportunity to sell their better players in order to offset what has been a very damaging season. I mean just imagine our financial state had it not been for the premier league this year. We’re up there with some of the highest gates in the division. Many of those squads next season will be carbon copies, so getting rid of premier league experienced players would be, IMO handing away an advantage.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

He might be 33, but it doesnt change the fact he's still our most consistent player!, he's also one of our fittest if not the fittest player in the squad, he plays his heart out and whether we play a back 3 or 4, I'd rather drop Stevens than BASH on current form.
Bash will have a big part to play next season, he's still a very good championship player and deserves respect for what he's done at United, our longest serving player and the ideal player for Sikeri to be learning from.
And also, he's part of a proven back 3 that not to long ago were one of the top 4 defences in the premier league, by far the best in the championship the season before, and the 2 seasons previously, and there's a reason he's still in the team 5years on.

A lot of heart felt admiration there, but it’s not relevant to his ability or where we go next season. He was a very good championship player on the right side of a 3, anything else and he simply isn’t anymore, if indeed he ever was.
He’s a consummate professional, one you’d always keep around should he want, but you listing what he was 2 years ago is for the birds.
Bash would be exposed in a back 2 at championship level continually by the top half sides and in midfield he’s closer to league one than Premier league. In all likelihood at his age in a 4-4-2 he’s lower championship/top of League one player, but as you say to us and our youngsters he’s worth much much more.
Hopefully we keep the back 3 and he can transition the new players through. He could easily play all season there but it wouldn’t be for the long term benefit of the club as after next year we need to have a real alternative.

 

[CoatesyBlade]

He might be 33, but it doesnt change the fact he's still our most consistent player!, he's also one of our fittest if not the fittest player in the squad, he plays his heart out and whether we play a back 3 or 4, I'd rather drop Stevens than BASH on current form.
Bash will have a big part to play next season, he's still a very good championship player and deserves respect for what he's done at United, our longest serving player and the ideal player for Sikeri to be learning from.
And also, he's part of a proven back 3 that not to long ago were one of the top 4 defences in the premier league, by far the best in the championship the season before, and the 2 seasons previously, and there's a reason he's still in the team 5years on.

The overlapping RCB role was perfect for Bash. He has excelled in that position. Nobody can deny this or question his loyalty, work ethic, professionalism... etc.
We’re talking about moving forward as a club. A change in formation is required. That’s not to say the 3-5-2 can’t still be used when all the players are fit. But finding adequate cover for both Bash and JOC has proven too difficult. I don’t think Bash is the solution should we play a back 4, whether that be as a CH or DM. So if we do change system, which is something I think we all want (at least the flexibility to change should we need to) then I don’t see Bash making the starting 11. Time will tell I’m sure when we appoint a new manager.

 

[HeySethUTB]

Norwich didn’t have a complete overhaul, a few tweaks but no panic clear out. We should do similar, if you have a mass change of players you are starting from the beginning again and that’s what causes problems. Look what Fulham did last time they went up, they changed almost the entire side, it didn’t work.

Fulham are destined to do almost the same thing this year if relegated, 7 of their first 11 are on loan from others top division clubs and 4 more of their contracted players expire at the end of the season. This will be another competitor that may have more of a squad rather than a team.

 

[BigBed]

A lot of heart felt admiration there, but it’s not relevant to his ability or where we go next season. He was a very good championship player on the right side of a 3, anything else and he simply isn’t anymore, if indeed he ever was.
He’s a consummate professional, one you’d always keep around should he want, but you listing what he was 2 years ago is for the birds.
Bash would be exposed in a back 2 at championship level continually by the top half sides and in midfield he’s closer to league one than Premier league. In all likelihood at his age in a 4-4-2 he’s lower championship/top of League one player, but as you say to us and our youngsters he’s worth much much more.
Hopefully we keep the back 3 and he can transition the new players through. He could easily play all season there but it wouldn’t be for the long term benefit of the club as after next year we need to have a real alternative.

For the long term I think Seriki is the player for that role and hopefully he can step up through next season, but for the start, Bash is ideal.

 

[BigBed]

The overlapping RCB role was perfect for Bash. He has excelled in that position. Nobody can deny this or question his loyalty, work ethic, professionalism... etc.
We’re talking about moving forward as a club. A change in formation is required. That’s not to say the 3-5-2 can’t still be used when all the players are fit. But finding adequate cover for both Bash and JOC has proven too difficult. I don’t think Bash is the solution should we play a back 4, whether that be as a CH or DM. So if we do change system, which is something I think we all want (at least the flexibility to change should we need to) then I don’t see Bash making the starting 11. Time will tell I’m sure when we appoint a new manager.

The future at left and right are Sekiri and RND, Gordon is another that I think will make a splash, but in Bash you have a player that can start the first part of the season, and help the others moving forward, I can't see us buying defenders with this in mind, we lack far more in other areas.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

For the long term I think Seriki is the player for that role and hopefully he can step up through next season, but for the start, Bash is ideal.

Seriki as RCB? I’ve not seen him but always thought he was more a right wing back/right winger. Not sure he’ll be ready to start Premier league games in 2022/3 I’ll have my doubts, but would be over the moon if it’s the case.
I thought he’d be in the next wave of talent coming through, after the ones we bring through this time.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I think therein lies the problem, sometimes a player can try too hard in order to get the rest of the team going. Can't fault that. But the obvious lack of team support and technical skills doesn't solve the issue.
Much of this is due to availability for selection (injury or banned) but in reality it's down to what you've been coached from what players you have at your disposal for first team selection. That's another can of worms....

I think if we have 11 players in the 'trying too hard' camp, then we'd be just fine!!

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

what i do'nt like to cross George

Or What's the point in crossing as there's no cunt in box George - as I prefer to call him...