Compare SUFC with Watford and Charlton

[bladesman1889]

Jeez, I can't believe anyone cannot grasp that commercially SWFC's performance matters to us.

I never said it doesn't! It doesn't matter enough though, negligible effect on us.

 

[lenners]

so you'd prefer to be in palace's situation than ours? and don't say WBA because they have far more resources than we do.

Why can't we compare ourselves with WBA? They're probably a bit smaller club than United but have been far better managed for several years.
And watching that match on Monday made you realise just how little football we play and just how mind-numbing our performances are in comparison.
I'd love to see us give just one season of football like that.

 

[lenners]

Two seasons with around 15-20 wins in the whole time, boardroom turmoil, joke chairmen, mounds of debt, overpaid players, fans expectations going through the roof, threats of administration....but sure it was all worth it for 2 crap seasons in the PL?

I'm sure winning at Arsenal, drawing at Liverpool (I think?), scoring three at Old Trafford were all decent memories.
But what do we have for our £50m debt and re-profiling? Sadly, fuck all in playing terms. We now can't afford to give Monty a contract.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

so you'd prefer to be in palace's situation than ours? and don't say WBA because they have far more resources than we do.

I'd just like to watch some exciting football instead being sat there thinking this is crap AGAIN!

If your happy with whats being served up then that's your perogative. Me I demand more.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Thanks lenners [don't say that that often!]

 

[bladesman1889]

Why can't we compare ourselves with WBA? They're probably a bit smaller club than United but have been far better managed for several years.
And watching that match on Monday made you realise just how little football we play and just how mind-numbing our performances are in comparison.
I'd love to see us give just one season of football like that.

Palace played ok but I didn't think their football was particularly brilliant. It was a frantic match which you would expect, when a team needs a win to stay up/go up games are generally like that. Do you realistically expect matches like that at BL more than 2/3 times a season? I bet it was one of the best matches CP fans have seen this season. What a dumb argument, seriously.

I'm sure winning at Arsenal, drawing at Liverpool (I think?), scoring three at Old Trafford were all decent memories.
But what do we have for our £50m debt and re-profiling? Sadly, fuck all in playing terms. We now can't afford to give Monty a contract.

We had memories of beating Arsenal & drawing with Liverpool as well, doesn't matter now though. Certainly wasn't worth administration.

 

[norfolkblade]

I think WBA are the perfect model of a club who will eventually succeed in staying in the PL for more than 1 or 2 seasons. Management there seems very prudent indeed - vital at this moment in time, they don't go and overspend when they do go up, and they use parachute payments extremely wisely and get themselves back up fairly quickly, plus they play some cracking football as well!

 

[lenners]

Palace played ok but I didn't think their football was particularly brilliant. It was a frantic match which you would expect, when a team needs a win to stay up/go up games are generally like that. Do you realistically expect matches like that at BL more than 2/3 times a season? I bet it was one of the best matches CP fans have seen this season. What a dumb argument, seriously.




We had memories of beating Arsenal & drawing with Liverpool as well, doesn't matter now though. Certainly wasn't worth administration.

Do you really think Hull fans would swap promotion from the Championship - which started the debts - and two years in the Prem for the first time in their history for instead remaining in the Championship and being excited about not going into administration in 2010/11?
I'm not sure you know much about football or football fans.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Why can't we compare ourselves with WBA? They're probably a bit smaller club than United

Do you realise how arrogant that sounds?

WBA are a bigger club than us.

 

[Revolution]

WBA are a bigger club than us.

There is very little to choose between our record and WBA's record over the last 20 years. Similar gates, time spent in various divisions, etc...our Cup record is better and we haven't been below the 2nd tier.

They do one thing better than us - they seem to have acquired the knack of winning promotion from this league with ease by playing pleasing football and without breaking the bank.

As for Linz's point re Charlton and Watford:

- Charlton are worse off than ourselves, but then again I suppose they have a better recent history generally. Hooray, 3 years of poor decision making and we're still better off than Charlton (well, unless they come up).
- Watford, like us, are in the Championship next year with no money and few good players. We come off looking worse when compared with them because we have spent a fortune to get nowhere fast and they have spent very little since relegation.

It is also worthy of note that both of these teams have smaller attendances and smaller stadiums than we do.

 

[grafikhaus]

How to compare us to Watford & Charlton? Well, not having studied or followed either club too closely, it's difficult to compare.

However, what I do know is that, in recent years (2006-ish onwards) Watford had Aidie Boothroyd as manager. Remember him? He was the next 'bright young thing' and a manager a lot of United fans would have given their eye teeth to have at Bramall Lane - certainly preferable to Neil Warnock.

Similarly, Charlton appear to have been well served by media darlings Alan Pardew and Alan Curbishley (sandwiching the lamentable Ian Dowie).

With such fantastic, young, dynamic managers, how could Watford and Charlton possibly fail? But they did.

Suppose it proves three things:

The grass ain't always greener.

Once a manager has a 'name' in the media, his failings are usually glossed over

Managers are much of a muchness - win some, lose some. Have an extended poor run, get sacked, get paid off, do media work for a few months and another mug team will usually take you on.

So I think any comparison should take into account the fact that Unitedites are an extremely pessimistic bunch (me included!) and don't realise when we've got a good thing. Personally, I consider Warnock was a 'good thing'. Ditto McCabe. Ditto the great ground we now enjoy.

So we're experiencing a bit of a downturn - which supporters don't? But we've got a lot going for us and should bounce back.

Apart from that, I consider both Watford and Charlton to be crappy little 'suburb' teams with little to recommend them and only a vague 'history' going back many years. We, on the other hand, are the beating heart of a great northern city. Watford and Charlton will only ever attract future support from delusionals who don't want to go to the many nearby, better teams in their areas. United have no alternative team to support.

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Do you really think Hull fans would swap promotion from the Championship - which started the debts - and two years in the Prem for the first time in their history for instead remaining in the Championship and being excited about not going into administration in 2010/11?
I'm not sure you know much about football or football fans.

For every thousanth person born, God scoops out their brains and makes them football fans.

I've spoken to Leeds fans who still maintain that 'it was worth it' to spend on a level bordering on the negligently cavalier in order to get a CL Semi-final. 'Worth it' that is, if you weren't one of the hundreds of businesses roundly screwed over, or one of the many people who lost their businesses, jobs and livelyhoods because of it. It is a selfish and unreasonable view that unlike any other area of business football clubs can spend what they like, go bust owing millions, and pop-up again the following day with only a 10 point deduction (which isn't fair on the 'fans' either) to show for it.

Hull (Cardiff, Portsmouth, and a bunch more) have achieved on the back of debts that they cannot repay in the ultimate game of shit or bust. To say that that is an acceptable way of providing the (often petulant and unrealistic) supporters their 'excitement' is just irresponsible Len. There is a growing sense of realism that football has to pay its way and cannot go on living down in the last £100k of overdrafts larger than their annual turnover, and being 3 months overdue on the PAYE. Still they did beat Arsenal, bless.

I'd be thoroughly ashamed if it was my club.

 

[grafikhaus]

Good post, DD.

 

[Foxy]

A comparison with Sheffield Wednesday is much more valid as it directly effects the morale of our club and has a potential commercial impact.
The performance of Charlton and Watford does not.

So it's only "pointless" and "It shouldn't matter what anyone else is doing" if it's not you doing the comparing?

We are compared, because we were in the same boat at the same time, not just plucked out of the air.

Of course Sheffield Wednesday is another comparison we have to make, but you can bet your house had Watford and Charlton just been promoted to the Premier League you'd see fit to compare our fortunes since relegation

 

[munksyb]

Leicester were promoted a few seasons ago at our expense, when they couldn't afford their players wages, and the PFA stepped in and paid the wages of their stars for them, WHY ????. to my mind that was the wrong thing to do, it set a bad prescedent , and was an affront to all well managed clubs.

I make this point because, I think the FA ( if they had any balls or sense ) should monitor the financial situation of clubs to protect the league, and punish clubs by automatic relegation , any who cannot afford within their own budget to play the players they set on through their own negotiating. And that includes any club not paying HMRC a'la Cardiff. This is not about interfering in private companies , it is about protecting the well run clubs from profligate & unscrupulous gambling clubs, and driving the whole of football into a spiral of decline , ( just like the bankers have done in the general ecconomy ).

Looking at this year,

Taking the worst injury crisis I have ever known , at any football club in my 44 years of following SUFC, out of things

Newcastle - were always going to stand a chance of promotion with their single city club status backed by up to 50,000 going through the turnstiles
West Brom - have sensibly played the yo yo game , and will once again gain by at least one more season, on high Premiership takings
Forest - recruited well, and quite frankly have amazed me , - I wonder what they're paying for Robert Earnshaw ? McGoldrick, Lee Camp , and have they gambled ???
Cardiff - should not be there ( see above )
Leicester - Fryatt has been a revelation , I wonder what they have paid for Tunchev / Solano / Oakley , have they also gambled ???
Blackpool - the suprise team , good look to them
Swansea - have been well coached by Sousa, but I dont think would have been above us had we not had all the injuries
Mddlesborough - Have retained more of their premiership squas than everyone thought , so with the parachute payments have done well, but again , have they gambled ?
Of those below us Derby / Coventry / Reading / QPR / Ipswich / Wednesday, will all consider they have under-acheived.

I think financially , we have done the correct thing , and I think this close season will be the proof of that pudding, we have not put things at risk, and I hope will benefit by being able to recruit those that others cannot afford, when realism kicks in to players salaries etc.

Blackwell , cannot be judged by this season, as I think he was vastly undermined by the injuries / forced loans.

If I were to judge him , I would sum it up by saying, he did a good job last year, and has donne as well as could be expected, this year under the circumstances, but if he is here next season, I hope he takes this opportunity of recruiting up to 14 players, to reshape , our style of football, ( but not in the same way that Robson tried ).

 

[Micalijo]

I really am genuinely staggered that we now see people resorting to a comparison with Watford and Charlton as a roundabout way of suggesting that McCabe and Blackwell are together doing a good job.

Things are getting totally out of hand on here.

 

[sheffielder]

This is an interesting one I've been asked with regards to the feedback from the fans forum and as it was something I hadn't seen been mentioned, I thought I'd ask.

When we came down from the Premiership in 2007, we came down with Watford and Charlton.

In the time since, Watford have finished:

2008: 6th (Lost to Hull in Play-Offs)
2009: 13th
2010: Currently placed 19th

Charlton meanwhile have finished:

2008: 11th
2009: 24th (relegated to League One)
2010: Currently placed 5th

We have finished:

2008: 9th
2009: 3rd (Lost to Burnley in Play-Off Final)
2010: Currently placed 9th

So that's the comparison of league positions done for you, but what about the rest?

What about the leadership of the two teams (who both have different managers from the ones who took the teams down)?

What about the financial situation at the clubs? How do you perceive they are doing in relation to us?

Charlton were spending money for years which they could not afford.
Imagine the trouble Watford would be in now if they didn't have a year in the premierleague.
We on the other hand spent good money on Hendrie, BT, Naysmith, Henderson, Speed (wages) Cotterill etc since we got relegated. I would suggest the financial mess that we (may/are) in is due to mismanagement since we got relegated.

I asked one question in the forum. I even sent it to the club secretary.

When we sold BT and signed Ward we were told this was the new transfer policy. Since then we have only signed Andy Taylor from a lower division. Where is this investment in promising lower league youngsters. Instead we burdon ourselves we large loan wages.

Again, another post about blaming fans expectations and not the club

 

[lenners]

For every thousanth person born, God scoops out their brains and makes them football fans.

I've spoken to Leeds fans who still maintain that 'it was worth it' to spend on a level bordering on the negligently cavalier in order to get a CL Semi-final. 'Worth it' that is, if you weren't one of the hundreds of businesses roundly screwed over, or one of the many people who lost their businesses, jobs and livelyhoods because of it. It is a selfish and unreasonable view that unlike any other area of business football clubs can spend what they like, go bust owing millions, and pop-up again the following day with only a 10 point deduction (which isn't fair on the 'fans' either) to show for it.

Hull (Cardiff, Portsmouth, and a bunch more) have achieved on the back of debts that they cannot repay in the ultimate game of shit or bust. To say that that is an acceptable way of providing the (often petulant and unrealistic) supporters their 'excitement' is just irresponsible Len. There is a growing sense of realism that football has to pay its way and cannot go on living down in the last £100k of overdrafts larger than their annual turnover, and being 3 months overdue on the PAYE. Still they did beat Arsenal, bless.

I'd be thoroughly ashamed if it was my club.

Then there are clubs like ours who haven't yet gone into administration but have a £50m debt and fuck all to show for it.
And much as I was moved by the violins I could hear while reading your post, I wonder how much money Leeds glory era generated for the local economy?
Much, much more than the debts which were, if you want to accurately recall, largely to interesting offshore entities who equally interestingly helped Bates retain control of the club.
Football's finances are rancid in general, no doubt about that.
But there is no league table for the most prudently run clubs as far as I can see and even if there was, SUFC would find themselves relegated.

 

[Nick Jansky]

A comparison with Sheffield Wednesday is much more valid as it directly effects the morale of our club and has a potential commercial impact.
The performance of Charlton and Watford does not.

Jeez, what has happened to schooling? I think you meant "affects".

 

[Sensiblade]

Jeez, what has happened to schooling? I think you meant "affects".

Is Jeez actually a word????

 

[Nick Jansky]

Is Jeez actually a word????

Well I'll give him that one. But substituting "effects" for the correct "affects" in this context shows a very poor grasp of grammar, and is wrong.

 

[Grecian2000]

Comercially? Why? They're not in a similar position to us on or off the pitch and haven't been for a long time. But because they affect the morale of our club (???) and have a commercial impact on us (????) they're the (sorry) most valid comparison?

What an interesting thread.

I have chosen the quote above because I believe it is so way off the mark as to be the best way to respond. The Pigs are, by some distance, the team we are most comparable with and who we MUST stay as far ahead of as possible.

There are two blokes on safari in Africa. Suddenly they see a lion running toward them. One bloke immediately changes his walking boots for some trainers. “What the hell are you doing that for? You’ll never out run it” says the other.
“I’m not trying to outrun him. I’m trying to outrun you”.
That is our position. We have been lucky in the last few seasons because although we only have an old pair of plimmies they are wearing diving boots tied together at the ankles.

If you are a local business and have just enough for an advert in a football program then which club are you going to choose? Which ground are you going to shell out for an advertising hoarding? If you are a kid looking to go support a team by actually turning up to watch them rather than watch Man U on TV, then, family loyalties aside, which team are you going to go for?
It’s simple really. The further we get/stay in front then the better on all levels.

As for the thread as a whole. I would never dream of comparing us to either Watford or Charlton. The only thing we share is a date of being relegated. It is how we arrived at that position that determines where we are now, not any comparison afterwards.

Charlton, having survived near closure and a nomadic roam around London in the 80’s, somehow got themselves into a position of Premier League regular. I would say this was a major over achievement and down, in no small way, to the management of Curbishley. Since he left they have been on a steady decline. If you want to compare to us in any way then maybe a look at what happened to us in the seven years after our best ever manager “retired” in 73/74 is more like it.

Watford scraped into the Prem in the Mediocrity Bowl and, as usual for such teams, were relegated easily and without a whimper. How they managed to get up in the first place was the mystery with their meagre resources. The fact they have reverted to type is no surprise at all. I don’t see us, with our ground, crowd and, ancient as it is, history as a viable comparison to them at all.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

During the next three years, football will take a hammering as the ripples from the global recession continue to rock the boat. If we still have a Sheffield United to compare with other teams at that time, I will be very grateful and what's more, I'll put up with KM and TB not giving the answers everybody wants at the moment.

And i'll be at the Lane with my season ticket until the day they have to carry me there, then and only then, will I think about stopping going.

 

[Micalijo]

During the next three years, football will take a hammering as the ripples from the global recession continue to rock the boat. If we still have a Sheffield United to compare with other teams at that time, I will be very grateful and what's more, I'll put up with KM and TB not giving the answers everybody wants at the moment.

And i'll be at the Lane with my season ticket until the day they have to carry me there, then and only then, will I think about stopping going.

Oh sweet Bob the Builder, how can I thank you enough for keeping SUFC afloat in these chilling times and allowing me to watch Kevin Blackwell's brand of football? It is so wonderful and you are very wonderful. Thank you for Blades Realty, Chengdu and everything else.

If Blackwell is around for much longer you'll be comparing us with Gillingham and Orient and various other League One clubs.

The situation is very, very simple. Sack Blackwell and we'll be fine. Keep Blackwell and the club will continue to be riddled with excuses and total mediocrity at best.

 

[davidpinder]

I see where you are coming from with this Linz but why just the teams that came down? why not the teams that are of a similar size to us and the team that also went up with us? Reading, Wolves and WBA spring to mind. So out of them Reading had an extra year in prem, finished next to us and have had a similar season again this season. I,d say there in better shape than us for next season as well. As for Wolves and WBA there doing better than we are, however you could go all day naming clubs.

Reading
2006/07 8th in prem
2007/08 Relegated prem
2008/09 4th in championship
2009/10 currently 11th

Wolves
2007/08 7th Championship
2008/09 1st Championship
2009/10 have stayed up in prem

WBA
2007/08 1ST in championship
2008/09 relegated championship
2009/10 promoted in 2nd championship

 

[JohnDenver]

The situation is very, very simple. Sack Blackwell and we'll be fine. Keep Blackwell and the club will continue to be riddled with excuses and total mediocrity at best.

If it's really that simple and Blackwell is Jonah himself, then why do his employers not sack him?

It's hard to provide any answer to that which doesn't complicate your simple proposition.

 

[Linz]

Gentlemen.

Some people are getting very snarky both in this thread and throughout the forum. You signed up to join in debates respectfully yet there is an awful lot of people proclaiming other peoples' opinions to be "bollocks" and the like and that tends to be how nasty arguments start. Please refrain.

There is a way to civilly disagree.

Many thanks.

 

[Grecian2000]

Gentlemen.

Some people are getting very snarky both in this thread and throughout the forum. You signed up to join in debates respectfully yet there is an awful lot of people proclaiming other peoples' opinions to be "bollocks" and the like and that tends to be how nasty arguments start. Please refrain.

There is a way to civilly disagree.

Many thanks.

Are you sure you've attached this post to the right thread Linz?

Interesting and thought provoking debate to me and not a "name calling" in sight. Or is there some "between the lines" stuff going on?

 

[Coily]

What an interesting thread.

I have chosen the quote above because I believe it is so way off the mark as to be the best way to respond. The Pigs are, by some distance, the team we are most comparable with and who we MUST stay as far ahead of as possible.

There are two blokes on safari in Africa. Suddenly they see a lion running toward them. One bloke immediately changes his walking boots for some trainers. “What the hell are you doing that for? You’ll never out run it” says the other.
“I’m not trying to outrun him. I’m trying to outrun you”.
That is our position. We have been lucky in the last few seasons because although we only have an old pair of plimmies they are wearing diving boots tied together at the ankles.

If you are a local business and have just enough for an advert in a football program then which club are you going to choose? Which ground are you going to shell out for an advertising hoarding? If you are a kid looking to go support a team by actually turning up to watch them rather than watch Man U on TV, then, family loyalties aside, which team are you going to go for?
It’s simple really. The further we get/stay in front then the better on all levels.

As for the thread as a whole. I would never dream of comparing us to either Watford or Charlton. The only thing we share is a date of being relegated. It is how we arrived at that position that determines where we are now, not any comparison afterwards.

Charlton, having survived near closure and a nomadic roam around London in the 80’s, somehow got themselves into a position of Premier League regular. I would say this was a major over achievement and down, in no small way, to the management of Curbishley. Since he left they have been on a steady decline. If you want to compare to us in any way then maybe a look at what happened to us in the seven years after our best ever manager “retired” in 73/74 is more like it.

Watford scraped into the Prem in the Mediocrity Bowl and, as usual for such teams, were relegated easily and without a whimper. How they managed to get up in the first place was the mystery with their meagre resources. The fact they have reverted to type is no surprise at all. I don’t see us, with our ground, crowd and, ancient as it is, history as a viable comparison to them at all.

This all seems to be the most reasoned viewpoint posted. I can see where Linz was coming from, but the only link we had with Watford and Charlton is that we were all relegated together. We didn't have the players on huge contracts without relegation clauses that Charlton have since been crippled by. Watford were a financial mess before they went up, they just feel lucky they didn't have to go into administration this season.

So it seems only reasonable that we put ourselves up against Wednesday first and foremost. It's a shame we can't seem able to leave them behind through our own success, but for now them going down is the next best thing.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

She's been drinking again.