Clough N. - the Derby debate

[Fazak]

Even after all this time there is still a lively debate on the Derby County Forum about our Nigel, and the quote below is a reasonable summary of the points being made: -

"Clough is a very good manager who did very well at Derby and is now proving that at Sheffield United. He's getting them somewhere near mid-table and who knows, they might even become the first League One club since I don't know when to make the FA Cup semi finals. An incredible achievement.

Any success we have this season is owed in a massive way to Clough's years of hard service with Derby.

Some on here like to focus on Clough's failings or inadequacies. Yes, he has a few but I will always think of him as being a success at Derby for turning the club from a crumbling laughing stock with awful finances to a highly competitive young and hungry squad".

I don't know about anybody else but that will do me, it sounds pretty much, just what we needed.

Nigel's strength is generally identified as the ability to sign decent players for not much money, whilst a few question his ability to get the best out of players and the quality of his coaching team. So far, I certainly don't think that has been the case at the Lane, their loss is our gain.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Even after all this time there is still a lively debate on the Derby County Forum about our Nigel, and the quote below is a reasonable summary of the points being made: -

"Clough is a very good manager who did very well at Derby and is now proving that at Sheffield United. He's getting them somewhere near mid-table and who knows, they might even become the first League One club since I don't know when to make the FA Cup semi finals. An incredible achievement.

Any success we have this season is owed in a massive way to Clough's years of hard service with Derby.

Some on here like to focus on Clough's failings or inadequacies. Yes, he has a few but I will always think of him as being a success at Derby for turning the club from a crumbling laughing stock with awful finances to a highly competitive young and hungry squad".

I don't know about anybody else but that will do me, it sounds pretty much, just what we needed.

Nigel's strength is generally identified as the ability to sign decent players for not much money, whilst a few question his ability to get the best out of players and the quality of his coaching team. So far, I certainly don't think that has been the case at the Lane, their loss is our gain.

Don't need a Derby forum to confirm what we all know.

Cloughie came into a club with all sorts of problems. After taking his time, we now have our pride back. You only have to look at the numerous mails on this forum to know what we think of Nigel. Without him we wouldn't have Scougall or Brayford, says it all really, and what looked like a troublesome position, goalkeeper, seems to have been solved by Howard's re-emergence. He's made us defensively strong, we're better going forward, and the serious omission is one or two forwards. But seeing how he's taken his time I'll stand by our manager until he decides to sign the right player(s).

Nigel is the best we've had for years UTB

 

[JohnDenver]

SUFC over the last 5 years represents a parable Derby fans would do well to consider. When the money dries up, you need good management to stop a decline through the leagues, and then build a young squad which can develop into challengers.

We had Blackwell, they had Clough. One club is near the Premiership, the other is near the basement.

 

[SUFC Handsworth]

Who'd have thunk (sic) it, at the start of this month after the Crewe debacle many Blades fans were claiming this team was the worst in United's history, even poorer than the '81 rabble.

 

[Bladesman]

Even after all this time there is still a lively debate on the Derby County Forum about our Nigel, and the quote below is a reasonable summary of the points being made: -

"Clough is a very good manager who did very well at Derby and is now proving that at Sheffield United. He's getting them somewhere near mid-table and who knows, they might even become the first League One club since I don't know when to make the FA Cup semi finals. An incredible achievement.

Any success we have this season is owed in a massive way to Clough's years of hard service with Derby.

Some on here like to focus on Clough's failings or inadequacies. Yes, he has a few but I will always think of him as being a success at Derby for turning the club from a crumbling laughing stock with awful finances to a highly competitive young and hungry squad".

I don't know about anybody else but that will do me, it sounds pretty much, just what we needed.

Nigel's strength is generally identified as the ability to sign decent players for not much money, whilst a few question his ability to get the best out of players and the quality of his coaching team. So far, I certainly don't think that has been the case at the Lane, their loss is our gain.

All McLaren has done has taken his squad and is challenging for promotion.

Clough is the right man for where we are at the moment.

 

[The Glasshouse Blade]

I agree that Clough is bang right for us, now, and in the future. He has stabilised us, strengthened the defence, bought in excellent players, and moved on some who long term wouldn't feature in our team, he has won massive respect.

 

[stannyblade]

Is there one first team player that hasn't improved by having Clough here?
He has seen George struggling and removed him from the firing line. As for Murphy and Flynn they are like 2 new players

 

[grafikhaus]

Who'd have thunk (sic) it, at the start of this month after the Crewe debacle many Blades fans were claiming this team was the worst in United's history, even poorer than the '81 rabble.

And that's a note of realism we need to take heed of. Yes, things look good at the mo. - after the past few years, they couldn't fail to. However, the Crewe debacle was just 21 days ago. Ten days ago, the Brentford game was called off - a game which current form suggests we would have lost. Forest last Sunday was brilliant but, without three top-drawer saves from Howard, we'd have probably lost. We've still got Wolves, Peterborough, Brentford, Orient & Rotherham to play. Two tough away games also come up this week.

Believe it or not, I'm not being a pessimist , just a reminder of how this game can change almost overnight. Be in no doubt, we're still seriously in the shit, and it will probably go to the wire.

Dog's abuse on the back of a postcard...

 

[Selly]

Who'd have thunk (sic) it, at the start of this month after the Crewe debacle many Blades fans were claiming this team was the worst in United's history, even poorer than the '81 rabble.

Statistically speaking, they were...

 

[Coily]

Is there one first team player that hasn't improved by having Clough here?
He has seen George struggling and removed him from the firing line. As for Murphy and Flynn they are like 2 new players

I felt there was always a player there in Murphy but he'd been hampered by injuries. Now with a longer run of games and the confidence it brings he is showing us the kind of form he had at Motherwell. With Flynn, he would appear to have much more freedom to attack under Clough. Previously he was a second right back, to the point where I thought it could be a good positional change for him.

Overall, I think most would agree that we've finally hit rock bottom and better times are coming with a manager who knows the job in hand and knows how to approach it. We have to let him get on with it and not be swayed by short term setbacks such as Crewe.

 

[metalblade]

Funnily enough I was just talking to a Derby supporter yesterday, his views were that it was our gain and Derby's loss for them to get rid of Nigel just as his team were coming good and that McClaren is lucky to have inherited a good team. He wasn't too bothered that we have just signed Davies but said he was steady enough, he was confident though that Nigel would turn us round. I too am becoming more confident that Clough has got us on the right track we have had bad games like at Crewe and you still wonder which team will turn up for a game but good performances are starting to outweigh the bad ones. A few months ago the thoughts of us beating a team from a higher division let alone Premiership teams would have been ridiculed, individual players are now performing much better and as a team we are showing fight, organisation, discipline and quite a bit of skill, a long way away from the team at the start of the season who were rightly branded just about the worst in the clubs history. I would still like to see us get a fast striker who will terrorise League one defences but I do think we have a squad good enough to keep us in this division now we have weeded out some of the dross.

 

[cooperblade]

And that's a note of realism we need to take heed of. Yes, things look good at the mo. - after the past few years, they couldn't fail to. However, the Crewe debacle was just 21 days ago. Ten days ago, the Brentford game was called off - a game which current form suggests we would have lost. Forest last Sunday was brilliant but, without three top-drawer saves from Howard, we'd have probably lost. We've still got Wolves, Peterborough, Brentford, Orient & Rotherham to play. Two tough away games also come up this week.

Believe it or not, I'm not being a pessimist , just a reminder of how this game can change almost overnight. Be in no doubt, we're still seriously in the shit, and it will probably go to the wire.

Dog's abuse on the back of a postcard...

Agree that a note of caution is needed and there's still a nagging doubt that we might be about to offer contracts to players who've been nowhere near good enough until the final few months of their deals. Are they playing for Clough or are they playing for deals? I've thought we have needed a major clear out for ages but now, because of good performances, the picture isn't as clear.

First we have to stay up (far from guaranteed) and then we have to get some massive decisions right. Lots of work still to do.

Things are definitely heading in the right direction though, Clough has given us a sense of being United back. They feel like our players again all of a sudden and Bramall Lane has stopped being an easy day out for opposition teams.

Today, I can't wait to go and see Stefan Scougall play football. Watching him is just incredibly enjoyable and a reminder to everyone of why we love the game. When was the last time anyone made us, as Blades, feel like that?

 

[blade too long]

Some people fit at certain clubs, take Holloway, sacked at Leicester , takes Blackpool to the promised land, theres a nice rapport building up again , a bit more like Basset the early years than Warnock , and I find it exciting , the people coming in are looking a big improvement on previous additions. Long may it be so

 

[Pinchy]

With due respect to Derby fans I don't need their views. I prefer the compelling evidence of my own eyes.

It's what Nigel does for SUFC that counts now. Derby is history.

As for grafikhaus' point about the opposition ahead - good, bring them on - this team seems to play better against better teams.

 

[Pinchy]

Agree that a note of caution is needed and there's still a nagging doubt that we might be about to offer contracts to players who've been nowhere near good enough until the final few months of their deals. Are they playing for Clough or are they playing for deals? I've thought we have needed a major clear out for ages but now, because of good performances, the picture isn't as clear.

First we have to stay up (far from guaranteed) and then we have to get some massive decisions right. Lots of work still to do.

Things are definitely heading in the right direction though, Clough has given us a sense of being United back. They feel like our players again all of a sudden and Bramall Lane has stopped being an easy day out for opposition teams.

Today, I can't wait to go and see Stefan Scougall play football. Watching him is just incredibly enjoyable and a reminder to everyone of why we love the game. When was the last time anyone made us, as Blades, feel like that?

I Scoogs.

 

[Bladesway]

SUFC over the last 5 years represents a parable Derby fans would do well to consider. When the money dries up, you need good management to stop a decline through the leagues, and then build a young squad which can develop into challengers.

We had Blackwell, they had Clough. One club is near the Premiership, the other is near the basement.

Shit, I almost forgot its all Blackwells fault. Remind me how close we got to the Premiership with him?

 

[JohnDenver]

Shit, I almost forgot its all Blackwells fault. Remind me how close we got to the Premiership with him?

Nah, I blame Birch and McCabe more than Blackwell. But the fact is, after Blackwell fell just short at Wembley, he completely failed to plan any further than the end of his nose. We borrowed players, and invested next-to-nothing in the future. Eventually that all imploded having cost us a fortune.

Like I say - Blackwell's bosses were as much to blame, but that doesn't exonerate him one iota.

 

[Pinchy]

Shit, I almost forgot its all Blackwells fault. Remind me how close we got to the Premiership with him?

We got very close to total anti-football. All the way, in fact. Ask Stephen Quinn who hated his stint as Elpiton under the former non-league, semi-professional, reserve goalkeeper, recently sacked by Bury and now unemployable.

 

[dublin 10 blade]

We got very close to total anti-football. All the way, in fact. Ask Stephen Quinn who hated his stint as Elpiton under the former non-league, semi-professional, reserve goalkeeper, recently sacked by Bury and now unemployable.

Get off the fence and say what you think man ...

 

[Bladesway]

We got very close to total anti-football. All the way, in fact. Ask Stephen Quinn who hated his stint as Elpiton under the former non-league, semi-professional, reserve goalkeeper, recently sacked by Bury and now unemployable.

Yeah yeah but I'm not reinventing history here. Blackwell got us to a play off final in spite of having most of his best players sold from under him. It is a bit like owning a Ferarri but every time you take it in for a service someone keeps replacing the parts with those of a Mini Metro. At first its just the mudflaps and you might get away with it, but once they take the engine out, the wheels and the rest it starts looking like the piece of shit it is. Blackwell wasn't a great manager but he did right the wrongs of Robson until McCabe shat all over him.

 

[SandyMcBlade]

I really don't see how anyone can complain about Clough, he's not only got a team that couldn't win an argument in an empty room playing winning football, he's got them doing it in the style everybody on here has been calling for for years..
I know they say "I'm not really complaining" but we all know they really are, and finding fault is some thing some "Blades" are really good at.
As for Derby I think he summed that job up last week when he said the difference between starting the United job and the Derby one is his first job isn't to find a way of knocking £60,000 off the wage bill, and we know what happens when a club goes down that road,
He did it and brought Derby through it, but as we know some fans have very selective memories when things aren't moving fast enough for them ..

 

[KenMcnaughtsNuts]

Derby we're expected to challenge for promotion every year since god knows when...and never did...that is reason he got flak and eventually the sack. Whether those expectations were realistic or not, i have no idea. They're certainly challenging right now, 3rd in the league, they were only 14th when he got the sack. The facts are this season they lost 4 of 9 games under Clough, since he left they've only lost 2 of 23 games. It's a result business. Harsh, but that's how it is.

 

[JohnDenver]

Derby we're expected to challenge for promotion every year since god knows when...and never did..

By whom? A team can't sell its way to promotion. Even surprise successes in the second tier (Burnley, Blackpool), invested a little wisely.

I can see how they got sick of Clough at Derby. Remember how Warnock was treated in '04? But the fact remains it is his team which stayed up while costs were cut and now challenges for promotion, even if he's not at the helm.

Most footy fans simply aren't realistic in what they expect of managers.

 

[KenMcnaughtsNuts]

By whom? A team can't sell its way to promotion. Even surprise successes in the second tier (Burnley, Blackpool), invested a little wisely.

I can see how they got sick of Clough at Derby. Remember how Warnock was treated in '04? But the fact remains it is his team which stayed up while costs were cut and now challenges for promotion, even if he's not at the helm.

Most footy fans simply aren't realistic in what they expect of managers.

They were one of the 6 or 7 favourites with the bookies, admittedly always one of the outsiders of those, every season he's been there. Always tipped to make a run at the play offs. Every year they were talked up as this being the season they finally challenge. Don't think he got them in the top half in any of em. Certainly they've never been in the race for the play offs since he's been there. Not saying the expectations were realistic, obviously we were being tipped for the play offs this season cos of our "name" but were never genuinely that likely to challenge, but those were the expectations at Derby and he didn't fulfill them.

If you ask the Derby board now if they were right to sack him, they'd undoubtedly say yes. When they sacked him nobody in their right mind would have said Derby would be 3rd now, so it's worked out perfect for them. Nobody would have said McClaren was a good appointment either after the shambles at Forest, but this time it's working out for him. Worked out pretty good for us too so far. What Clough has always shown is that he has a good tactical knowledge and great consistency making his teams hard to beat. What he has not really shown is the ability to get his teams to be ruthless and put teams away. Hopefully he's learned from his experience. I haven't seen him much for Derby, but from the little i have seen he looks more determined to succeed with us. Maybe he got in a rut and now feels alive.

He's been fantastic so far. Really got the team up for it, but playing professionally. Totally the opposite to under David Weir. Not getting carried away, but i think this could go very well. But as always, i have pretty much no confidence in the board supporting him with the tools he needs.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

They were one of the 6 or 7 favourites with the bookies, admittedly always one of the outsiders of those, every season he's been there. Always tipped to make a run at the play offs. Every year they were talked up as this being the season they finally challenge. Don't think he got them in the top half in any of em. Certainly they've never been in the race for the play offs since he's been there. Not saying the expectations were realistic, obviously we were being tipped for the play offs this season cos of our "name" but were never genuinely that likely to challenge, but those were the expectations at Derby and he didn't fulfill them.

If you ask the Derby board now if they were right to sack him, they'd undoubtedly say yes. When they sacked him nobody in their right mind would have said Derby would be 3rd now, so it's worked out perfect for them. Nobody would have said McClaren was a good appointment either after the shambles at Forest, but this time it's working out for him. Worked out pretty good for us too so far. What Clough has always shown is that he has a good tactical knowledge and great consistency making his teams hard to beat. What he has not really shown is the ability to get his teams to be ruthless and put teams away. Hopefully he's learned from his experience. I haven't seen him much for Derby, but from the little i have seen he looks more determined to succeed with us. Maybe he got in a rut and now feels alive.

He's been fantastic so far. Really got the team up for it, but playing professionally. Totally the opposite to under David Weir. Not getting carried away, but i think this could go very well. But as always, i have pretty much no confidence in the board supporting him with the tools he needs.

It was all going great until you reminded us about The Board

 

[itsinyerblood]

By whom? A team can't sell its way to promotion. Even surprise successes in the second tier (Burnley, Blackpool), invested a little wisely.

I can see how they got sick of Clough at Derby. Remember how Warnock was treated in '04? But the fact remains it is his team which stayed up while costs were cut and now challenges for promotion, even if he's not at the helm.

Most footy fans simply aren't realistic in what they expect of managers.

I agree with JohnDenver, if you have the reputation of a 'selling' club you'll never achieve anything. Relying on young players from an Academy, or a marquee signing, is a sign of desperation, based on the hope that things will work out. How is any of that a sign that a board knows what it's doing? I wonder what the criteria for becoming a director of this club is? Is it meant to be money? I see we have an estate agent on our board, has he thrown in anything of substance that will make a difference? As for the other board members, are they there purely for the kudos of saying they're a director of SUFC?

The inner workings of a club remain a mystery to fans. We have a Saudi Prince on board, and immediately in the mind of many supporters is the equation that because he's a Saudi Prince he'll be a Mr money-bags. Maybe he just has a title and a few million? If that's the case he won't be throwing his dosh around. On the other hand, maybe he wants his manager to present a solid case why a player should be signed, if so, then good for him, the last thing any owner of a club should want is a manager who is profligate with someone else's money.

We can argue the toss about the reasons Clough was released by Derby, the fact is he's with us now.

All managers have tough periods (for whatever reasons), and fans sometimes have a knee-jerk reaction to this and call for the manager to be replaced. Having a considered view of what we have, what might be behind a manager's poor showing, isn't something I associate with fans throughout the game. Miracle cures seem to be the order of the day. Quick fixes are rare or non-existant. What happens if Clough is confronted with problems outside of his making? Do we sack the guy? Do we again dip into the Blades' book of how-not-to-do-things, pay him off, and welcome another mug with fine words and promises that it'll be different this time? We have to ask what we want. Do we want to move forward? Are we happy with how we've slipped and become an embarrassment? Let's be right, apart from Cloughie and a few decent players, the one outstanding constant that this club has is a solid fan base, remarkable when you consider where we are. Yesterday we had just over 19000 against Bristol City, not too long ago, in a Yorkshire Derby, Sheffield Wednesday attracted just over 21000. Bless our supporters for sticking with our club. If only the club had shown the same recognition for those fans who've stood by the Blades through more thin than thick. If a set of fans have been abused by the club they love it's us lot....so well done Nigel, you're a good 'un mate, this is one Blades fan who's glad you're here.

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

Agree that a note of caution is needed and there's still a nagging doubt that we might be about to offer contracts to players who've been nowhere near good enough until the final few months of their deals. Are they playing for Clough or are they playing for deals? I've thought we have needed a major clear out for ages but now, because of good performances, the picture isn't as clear.

First we have to stay up (far from guaranteed) and then we have to get some massive decisions right. Lots of work still to do.

Things are definitely heading in the right direction though, Clough has given us a sense of being United back. They feel like our players again all of a sudden and Bramall Lane has stopped being an easy day out for opposition teams.

Today, I can't wait to go and see Stefan Scougall play football. Watching him is just incredibly enjoyable and a reminder to everyone of why we love the game. When was the last time anyone made us, as Blades, feel like that?

Agree, and it could be argued that we are still in the early days of Cloughys reign, sure there is even better to come. Some top signings of late even if one or two are on loan (Brayford master stroke). I feel the same, for sometime it's been hard watching the dross served up at the Lane, but of late I can't wait for the next game. Scougall on track to being one of the best signings ever at the Lane, (over the top ?, who cares ?).