Incoming? Carl Rushworth

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Champagneblade said:
Both came for no money,
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Don't forget loan fees. You're essentially paying to own the asset for a year, almost like a lease payment. In Henderson's case the second year was hefty. And much like a lease you're left with little to show at the end of it as an asset (albeit in his case he did help us net further PL payments).
 

Wards said:
Don't forget loan fees. You're essentially paying to own the asset for a year, almost like a lease payment. In Henderson's case the second year was hefty. And much like a lease you're left with little to show at the end of it as an asset (albeit in his case he did help us net further PL payments).
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Net net it isn’t very different to owning Berge, having spent 22m on him and only attracting offers of 15m.

in his case it’s not a lease fee but his market value has dropped.

So all in all we will also lose money when we dispose of the asset.

I just think owning all your players is not something fans should get hung upon as they are all here temporarily in a sense and just as many have moved at a loss than at a profit.
 
Champagneblade said:
just think owning all your players is not something fans should get hung upon as they are all here temporarily in a sense and just as many have moved at a loss than at a profit.
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Possibly not from a pure business sense but there's a lot to be said for growing a squad and the benefits that brings. Take the likes of Baldock, Bash, Stevens et al - no way we get the best from those lads for many years if we were to just throw them together for a season.

At the end of the day loans should be supplementary to a core squad of players, IMO. I don't think you could ever plan for long term success being so reliant on loan players. There has to be an element of continuity and cohesiveness that only comes from building a squad over 2/3/4/5 years - albeit acknowledging the game is changing and players seem much more pre-disposed to the idea of moving at the end of every contract.
 
There's a lot of people keep going back to Osula and Jebbo.
They're gone, they were both potentially good players, but only potentially....
We see week in week out, younger players smashing it in the prem and the Championship, and selling for good money to the big boys.
We don't have the money to keep or buy them from big clubs, we don't have draw of them eather, were not even in that pond.
We need to bring in loans to be who we are, and keep our rep as a club that the big boys can send their young players too, to be handled well and sent back, ok, we dont receive a fee, but, we do gain respect and a reputation, which allows us to keep getting these young talented players in.
Loan or Perm, we need both, and to be fair, we pay way over the odds for some, but we do get some blinding player for nowt, that balances it out abit.
 
BigBed said:
There's a lot of people keep going back to Osula and Jebbo.
They're gone, they were both potentially good players, but only potentially....
We see week in week out, younger players smashing it in the prem and the Championship, and selling for good money to the big boys.
We don't have the money to keep or buy them from big clubs, we don't have draw of them eather, were not even in that pond.
We need to bring in loans to be who we are, and keep our rep as a club that the big boys can send their young players too, to be handled well and sent back, ok, we dont receive a fee, but, we do gain respect and a reputation, which allows us to keep getting these young talented players in.
Loan or Perm, we need both, and to be fair, we pay way over the odds for some, but we do get some blinding player for nowt, that balances it out abit.
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Stop talking sense, get on the bandwaggon were a shambles
 
Wards said:
Possibly not from a pure business sense but there's a lot to be said for growing a squad and the benefits that brings. Take the likes of Baldock, Bash, Stevens et al - no way we get the best from those lads for many years if we were to just throw them together for a season.

At the end of the day loans should be supplementary to a core squad of players, IMO. I don't think you could ever plan for long term success being so reliant on loan players. There has to be an element of continuity and cohesiveness that only comes from building a squad over 2/3/4/5 years - albeit acknowledging the game is changing and players seem much more pre-disposed to the idea of moving at the end of every contract.
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It must also be considered that loans have enabled some players to play for the club, that it would otherwise have had no chance of affording on a perm basis at the time - Henderson, Doyle, McAtee to name some recent examples. Previously, Brayford, Hogan and even Madine all played important roles that helped secure success for the club that it may not have had without them.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the squad be predominantly me comprised of loan players (there are limits that prevent that anyway!) but equally, people shouldn't get too hung up about whether players are at the club either on a contracted or loan format. The club doesn't have a great record in paying fees for players and selling them on at a profit, quite the opposite in fact - developing players through the academy route is proving far more fruitful.
 
Champagneblade said:
Net net it isn’t very different to owning Berge, having spent 22m on him and only attracting offers of 15m.

in his case it’s not a lease fee but his market value has dropped.

So all in all we will also lose money when we dispose of the asset.

I just think owning all your players is not something fans should get hung upon as they are all here temporarily in a sense and just as many have moved at a loss than at a profit.
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The loan market is useful and we’ve used it to good effort recently. I don’t think anyone would question the logic of using loans to bring in highly rated young players like McAtee, Doyle or MGW. It benefits all parties.

Alongside the loans, we still need to own and develop our own players and then not allow their contracts to run down. The issue has not with buying players but rather the very poor way we have managed their contracts. Allowing so many of the first team squad to be out contact in the same summer was madness and is not conducive to success, particularly given the fees we had paid as you rightly point out,
 
BigBed said:
There's a lot of people keep going back to Osula and Jebbo.
They're gone, they were both potentially good players, but only potentially....
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Agree, we’re becoming like Peterborough raising good potential. I’m k with selling provided we have same attitude and returns as Peterborough get.
 
Wards said:
Don't forget loan fees. You're essentially paying to own the asset for a year, almost like a lease payment. In Henderson's case the second year was hefty. And much like a lease you're left with little to show at the end of it as an asset (albeit in his case he did help us net further PL payments).
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We can consolidate all our loans into one regular monthly repayment.

Source - daytime TV
 
Champagneblade said:
Net net it isn’t very different to owning Berge, having spent 22m on him and only attracting offers of 15m.

in his case it’s not a lease fee but his market value has dropped.

So all in all we will also lose money when we dispose of the asset.

I just think owning all your players is not something fans should get hung upon as they are all here temporarily in a sense and just as many have moved at a loss than at a profit.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm, I am not an expert on Football Club Accounting Practices, but I always thought that clubs used the same method of book keeping that other businesses do, for capital expenditure?

If a company buys a new (for example), company van, and they buy it outright, rather than lease it, then it goes into the books and is "written down" over a period of three to five years? So `that by the end of year three (or five), it is basically worth nothing on the books?

Sander came in on a four and half year deal and left after three and a half years of his contract, so if the club used a straight line depreciation of assets, he would have been on our books at a valuation of just under £5 million. Therefore £15million would be seen as a good deal.

I fully understand that the valuation of some players goes up, over time, but not all players.

I am sure one of our real accountants on here can tell me if I have misunderstood the above scenario.
 

Grappler said:
Hmmmm, I am not an expert on Football Club Accounting Practices, but I always thought that clubs used the same method of book keeping that other businesses do, for capital expenditure?

If a company buys a new (for example), company van, and they buy it outright, rather than lease it, then it goes into the books and is "written down" over a period of three to five years? So `that by the end of year three (or five), it is basically worth nothing on the books?

Sander came in on a four and half year deal and left after three and a half years of his contract, so if the club used a straight line depreciation of assets, he would have been on our books at a valuation of just under £5 million. Therefore £15million would be seen as a good deal.

I fully understand that the valuation of some players goes up, over time, but not all players.

I am sure one of our real accountants on here can tell me if I have misunderstood the above scenario.
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You're almost spot on, except it's amortisation of an intangible asset (the player's registration) rather than depreciation which applies to tangible assets.

Berge generated a book profit of £10m, even if we made a cash loss of £7m on him. Ndiaye (specifically Ndiaye's registration) would have had a minimal book value so he generated a book and cash profit of £20m
 
Grappler said:
Hmmmm, I am not an expert on Football Club Accounting Practices, but I always thought that clubs used the same method of book keeping that other businesses do, for capital expenditure?

If a company buys a new (for example), company van, and they buy it outright, rather than lease it, then it goes into the books and is "written down" over a period of three to five years? So `that by the end of year three (or five), it is basically worth nothing on the books?

Sander came in on a four and half year deal and left after three and a half years of his contract, so if the club used a straight line depreciation of assets, he would have been on our books at a valuation of just under £5 million. Therefore £15million would be seen as a good deal.

I fully understand that the valuation of some players goes up, over time, but not all players.

I am sure one of our real accountants on here can tell me if I have misunderstood the above scenario.
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You missed off the Tax man being elbow deep in your arse, fishing around for the last bit of sweetcorn.
 
Wards said:
Possibly not from a pure business sense but there's a lot to be said for growing a squad and the benefits that brings. Take the likes of Baldock, Bash, Stevens et al - no way we get the best from those lads for many years if we were to just throw them together for a season.

At the end of the day loans should be supplementary to a core squad of players, IMO. I don't think you could ever plan for long term success being so reliant on loan players. There has to be an element of continuity and cohesiveness that only comes from building a squad over 2/3/4/5 years - albeit acknowledging the game is changing and players seem much more pre-disposed to the idea of moving at the end of every contract.
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I do agree you need a core.

Issues have tended to arise when you try to have the cake made up of loans rather than the icing.

This was the issue under Blackwell that we were only prepared to loan simply because we couldn’t be bothered to plan more than six months down the track and it was all driven by spending as little as possible. It continued under McCabe e.g. sell Blackman, loan in Forte.

But I would say in terms of keeper just get the best one. It’s a unique position and we shouldn’t be hung up on it being a perm if better is out there. Hendo prime example.
 
Grappler said:
Hmmmm, I am not an expert on Football Club Accounting Practices, but I always thought that clubs used the same method of book keeping that other businesses do, for capital expenditure?

If a company buys a new (for example), company van, and they buy it outright, rather than lease it, then it goes into the books and is "written down" over a period of three to five years? So `that by the end of year three (or five), it is basically worth nothing on the books?

Sander came in on a four and half year deal and left after three and a half years of his contract, so if the club used a straight line depreciation of assets, he would have been on our books at a valuation of just under £5 million. Therefore £15million would be seen as a good deal.

I fully understand that the valuation of some players goes up, over time, but not all players.

I am sure one of our real accountants on here can tell me if I have misunderstood the above scenario.
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I’m not discounting accounting practices and amortisation but you know what I’m getting at. If I buy something for 22m and sell it for 15m, you can’t put a positive spin on it and say the accountants say this is going down as profit in the year we sold him.

We had him adjust to the country and sold him at less than we paid. It’s further gaulling that he will then be sold for more than we paid in the first place.

I’m sure others share that sentiment…
 
Ideally we'd buy a good keeper , young enough to get better as they tend to.
If non are available due to price tag , injury doubts then we get a competent experienced keeper on loan .
The long term keeper situation will be left to the new owners if nothing quite fits as we stand which is probably a good decision.
 
The Fox said:
Ideally we'd buy a good keeper , young enough to get better as they tend to.
If non are available due to price tag , injury doubts then we get a competent experienced keeper on loan .
The long term keeper situation will be left to the new owners if nothing quite fits as we stand which is probably a good decision.
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Sigh, we had Henderson and Ramsdale recently
 
The Fox said:
True , but let's be honest, its just a goalie.

You remember from school days , those who were too crap or fat to play outfield 😉
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That’s was me, the too crap not the fat bit. But I always got a game cause I had a laced up leather ball 😁
 
Champagneblade said:
I’m not discounting accounting practices and amortisation but you know what I’m getting at. If I buy something for 22m and sell it for 15m, you can’t put a positive spin on it and say the accountants say this is going down as profit in the year we sold him.

We had him adjust to the country and sold him at less than we paid. It’s further gaulling that he will then be sold for more than we paid in the first place.

I’m sure others share that sentiment…
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If you allow contracts to run down and wait until the last 12-18 months before making any serious attempt to extend, this will unfortunately happen, particularly when you make a lowball offer.

I’m not anti the current owner per se, he’s made a lot of positive moves since he took over, but he’s taken his eye off the ball big time in the last 18 months and has made some very poor decisions which we are now living with the consequences for.
 

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