Can we claim to be a big club

[nopigfansintown]

It all depends on the metrics.I would say United have as much potential as any club outside of the Premier League. We've had unrealised potential for a long,long time .Part of the attraction of supporting United, for me, is that we've never really come close to realising our potential. Hope springs eternal. It's not really something that our Championship rivals can say, certainly not Leeds,Villa,Pigs, Boro, Forest etc.

 

[Nade]

We've punched well below our weight since World War II.

Gonna have to stop you there. Not sure if saying that works when you refer to the majority of our history!

 

[Roygbiv]

I certainly think given our fan base we are the biggest under achievers in English football. We have literally done nothing since 1925, longer than almost every one of our fans have been alive, yet we still get 25,000 a week. No other club can boast such good support with such little success.

 

[grafikhaus]

Do you really believe the conspiracy theory ? Well here's one to ponder we would have survived but for Jagielka making sure he got his move to Everton or maybe we just wern't good enough. The only enemies we had were people who Colin had slagged off even if one or two were justified. You could have picked any one of four - five teams to go down in 2007 the only difference is they didn't have a centre back who was also a decent goalkeeper.

Thanks for the 'conspiracy theory' bit (you missed the 'tin foil hat' ). The die had been cast long before we even took to the field against Wigan - it started on the very first day of that season at home to Liverpool. 1- 0 up to a Rob Hulse goal, referee Styles thought 'we're not having that!' and awarded a penalty because Chris Morgan meant to foul Stevie G. Today, there's endless debate about 'assimilation' etc. but surely Morgan was the first (and last) player guilty of giving an opponent a dirty look?

We had a perfectly good (Kozluk?) goal ruled out at West Ham, in the final fixures teams (Liverpool at Fulham) colluded to field weakened teams against United's relegation rivals, and that's without mentioning the outrageous events surrounding Tevez. The 'Jagielka incident' in the Wigan game is common in football - defender sets up to deal with a cross, gets a sly nudge/pull from an opponent as the ball arrives and is totally off-balance. The same thing happened in our match at Millwall last season.

As the years go by, it's easy to forget how these incidents mount up. Watching Watford v Bournemouth on MoTD, the ball was going out for a Watford goal-kick until a Watford defender (Holebas) inexplicably punched the ball out. I immediately thought of Fashanu away to Wimbledon at Plough Lane in the 1993-94 season. (A Blades cross came over and Fashanu - thinking he was playing beach volleyball - reached up and punched the ball away. Nothing like the Jagielka iincident, it was a 'goalkeeper-like' punched clearance. As clear a penalty as you'll ever see and it was given. Fast-forward to the second half and Fashanu did a carbon copy. Everybody in the ground saw it. The ref chose not to.

As I said, it's not these individual incidents, it's how they mount up. When we drifted away from Plough Lane (18th December 1993), me and my mates were discussing how we'd dropped points thanks to the ref. By the end of the Chelsea game on May 7th - and the incredible 'coincidences' of that day - Segers, Fashanu, Grobbelaar etc. - it all became apparent...

 

[diplomat]

Isn't this more of a question usually asked in S6, and one we constantly take the piss out of?

I’d say not. The OP seems to be doubting whether we are or not. The massive tend to wonder whether they are as big as Man U or just behind them?

 

[wizadry]

Nonsense (or 'load of crap' as metalblade would say). Mick (or Mark) said on RS just the other day that Wendy are 'the biggest club in Yorkshire'. Leeds got over 36k for the Bolton game yesterday.

The previous biggest attendance this season was the visit of Hull City on December 23 when 35,156 packed inside the stadium.


Sheffield United’s visit on October 27 was the next biggest with 34,504 and then Ipswich Town’s on September 23 with 34,002. Link

I presume 10,000 Wendy fans were locked out?

...and our game was on a Friday night on Sky. Just thought I’d add that bit in to make us even more massive.

 

[west_yorks_blade]

http://sportsmancs.com/england-professional-football-time-tables-188889-201617-3/

This table provides definitive proof...

 

[Bashar Al Asaba]

I've never given a shit about this issue personally.

The 'size' of your club matters only if you see it as a sporting entity. In other words, if your affinity doesn't run that deep.

We're big enough to have harboured a community and to have established traditions and actually have a culture, as opposed to those brain-dead supplicants on the periphery of my city, and that's what really counts. Anything else is merely window-dressing.

 

[Sean Thornton]

http://sportsmancs.com/england-professional-football-time-tables-188889-201617-3/

This table provides definitive proof...

It shows they're bigger than Leeds anyway.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Thus is how you claim to a big club

"31

Posted yesterday at 00:36
Is it just the number (potential) match attendees or should we take into account past successes and past crowd size? "






You cover all bases and if actual attendances don't stack up, use "potential" attendances.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Thus is how you claim to a big club

"31

Posted yesterday at 00:36
Is it just the number (potential) match attendees or should we take into account past successes and past crowd size? "






You cover all bases and if actual attendances don't stack up, use "potential" attendances.

?
I didn't really understand that. Do they mean they will count what the attendance would be if all their supporters take their pets with them?

 

[Sean Thornton]

?
I didn't really understand that. Do they mean they will count what the attendance would be if all their supporters take their pets with them?

I think that unlike the EFL, they count body lice and crabs in their attendance claims.

 

[The Crab]

I think that unlike the EFL, they count body lice and crabs in their attendance claims.

They can fuck right off.

 

[1980]

I am writing a book on this at the moment.

Since the four divisions were introduced in 1958/59, Sheffield United have spent half that time playing in the Second Division, plus 11 in the third tier and 1 in the 4th tier. They have not appeared in any major cup final since 1936.

I would call the period after 1958/59 the era of 'modern' football (although I do acknowledge that the introduction of 3 points came later in this period) and so in modern terms Sheffield United are second tier club by achievement.

The following clubs are the only ones that have played more than half the seasons since the 4 tier system was introduced in the top flight:

Arsenal
Everton
Manchester United
Tottenham Hotspur
Liverpool
Chelsea
West Ham United
Aston Villa
Manchester City
Newcastle United
Southampton
West Bromwich Albion
Leicester City
Leeds United
Nottingham Forest
Coventry City
Stoke City

And if you defined being a 'big' club by having a significant presence in the top tier (say over 75% of seasons) then only the following clubs can lay claim to that:

Arsenal
Everton
Manchester United
Tottenham Hotspur
Liverpool
Chelsea
West Ham United
Aston Villa
Manchester City

*The reason I used the introduction of the 4 tier system as a barometer is because otherwise northern clubs have an unfair advantage. Take my club Millwall for example, they pioneered professional football in the south & created the Southern League, a competition that all football historians acknowledge as competitive as the Football League Second Division and bottom half of the First Division right up into the first decade of the 20th century. It was only after WW1, when the Southern League became the Third Division, that that was no longer true. This is a fact borne out by the success of Southern League clubs like Millwall, Southampton, Bristol City and of course Tottenham Hotspur in the FA Cup. In my opinion it is unfair to say that Barnsley (as a good example) treading water in the FL Second Division with no chance of relegation are a bigger club than Millwall, who were dominating the ultra competitive Southern League of the era.

 

[1980]

It all depends on the metrics.I would say United have as much potential as any club outside of the Premier League. We've had unrealised potential for a long,long time .Part of the attraction of supporting United, for me, is that we've never really come close to realising our potential. Hope springs eternal. It's not really something that our Championship rivals can say, certainly not Leeds,Villa,Pigs, Boro, Forest etc.

Potential is an interesting concept these days.

It could be argued that the clubs with the biggest 'potential' are one club big city clubs like Leeds United, Brighton & Hove Albion and Derby County; or all the senior London clubs.

If Millwall did win promotion to the PL, then suddenly our catchment area expands from a few old communities around the ground in Bermondsey, New Cross and Deptford to giving the London Boroughs of Lewisham and Southwark a PL football club. Furthermore, The Den is a 4 minute train ride from London Bridge, meaning it is easily accessible to people living in NE Kent and north Surrey without a club; or 30 mins for football tourists coming into Gatwick.

I also think in the coming decades southern clubs will get bigger, as football becomes more and more middle-class. The likes of Gillingham, for example, has the whole of Kent to call upon for support, should they finally get their new stadium and move up the divisions. Look at what happened to Reading, 20 years ago they were a 3rd/4th tier yo-yo club with gates of 5-6,000. If you look at the PL now it has already started to happen, southern clubs like Palace, Brighton, Watford, Bournemouth and Southampton with huge & affluent catchment areas have squeezed out more traditional football powers; you lot, Wednesday and Forest have been lingering around the lower leagues for the best part of 15 years now.

If I was a billionaire looking to buy I club I may choose someone like Gillingham, Bristol City or Swindon Town over Sheffield Wednesday nowadays.Hillsborough needs massive redevelopment or Wednesday need a new stadium. So, why not build one for Gillingham instead? At least then you can market it to the 1.6 million people that live there as the only place to watch league football in the county. Give them a PL club & you could easily fill a 40,000 new stadium. Wednesday would still have to fight with you lot for half the city's support. And the affluent residents of places like Tunbridge Wells, Rochester, Hempstead Valley, Maidstone etc. would probably pay more for top class football & the whole experience too.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

The reason Blades are a special breed is the fact the size of our club doesn’t matter to us.

 

[Sheffsteel]

1980,

Think you might be on to a winner writing a book a club size and which one is bigger.
It’s often a hot talking point, someone always manages to quote random statistics to prove club A is bigger than club B.

I’m sure you’ll give an whole chapter to definition of size. It’s a pointless arguement deciding which clubs are big until you agree the factors that make it big and then give a weighting to which factor is more important.

Some factors to consider are historical average gates (although clubs like West Ham and Leeds Utd have an advantage over both Sheffield clubs because those clubs joined the league later when gates were bigger. Recent average gates, record attendance, stadium size (most clubs have a stadium based on that clubs realistic potential), honours (weighting given to recent honours compared to pre war), seasons in the top flight (again weighting given to recent seasons compared to pre war), seasons in Europe, reputation/ television airtime/ memories (cup runs and news events), fan base nationally (clubs with a national fan base tend to have better away support, fan base abroad (supporters clubs), television audiences (Sky viewing figures), amount of times live games shown on Sky, twitter followers, club YouTube channel followers, then there’s that subjective word called “potential”, I’ve sometimes heard Plymouth Argyle, Cardiff and Bristol City referred to as big clubs, but almost every factor shows they are quite small clubs but do have big populations on their doorstep.

Often thought once you give a weighting to the importance in the factors that determine size, then you could put all the data in a computer and then it could come up with an accurate list of club size.

Whilst formulating a list of biggest clubs you could also formulate a list of most under achieving clubs.
Often thought that Sheff United have an impressive 26K support considering we’ve not won anything since 1925, not even a cup final since 1936 and zilch seasons in Europe. Are we the most under achieving club with the most suffering fans?

However based on potential and having decent support Bradford currently average 19K and have spent almost their entire history in the bottom 2 leagues, so they are possibly more under achieving than us, Bristol Rovers and Birmingham are contenders too.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

http://sportsmancs.com/england-professional-football-time-tables-188889-201617-3/

This table provides definitive proof...

Completely meaningless because it doesn't account for what league you're in.

For example, a team constantly finishing 3rd in League One would eventually overtake Manchester United.

 

[LenTednTony]

A club size, for me, is not what has been won alone but also what the “heart and soul” of the club is. We have a fantastic sense of identity and belonging as supporters. We have a great history and wonderful ground (compared to a LOT of others). The only thing that we are missing is recent silverware but, it’s not everything even though I would love to win summat!

 

[Sheffsteel]

A club size, for me, is not what has been won alone but also what the “heart and soul” of the club is. We have a fantastic sense of identity and belonging as supporters. We have a great history and wonderful ground (compared to a LOT of others). The only thing that we are missing is recent silverware but, it’s not everything even though I would love to win summat!

With respect that doesn’t really make sense.
I know someone from Lincoln and he tells me they have real heart and soul where the club means everything to the community.
As they spent time in the non league it’s made them more humble and appreciate how big and important their club is to them.
They have a massive sense of identity but but i’d never call Lincoln City a big club.

 

[Hartley Hare]

Potential is an interesting concept these days.

If I was a billionaire looking to buy I club I may choose someone like Gillingham.

That is why you are not a billionaire.

HH

 

[LenTednTony]

With respect that doesn’t really make sense.
I know someone from Lincoln and he tells me they have real heart and soul where the club means everything to the community.
As they spent time in the non league it’s made them more humble and appreciate how big and important their club is to them.
They have a massive sense of identity but but i’d never call Lincoln City a big club.

Each to their own. So money and silverware and Premier League status it is then. No matter if it is a soulless, corporate filled club. If this is the measure then there are really only 6 ish big clubs in the country and certainly none from the Championship. I get your point totally!

 

[1980]

That is why you are not a billionaire.

HH

I just think in the 21st century, where PL clubs are charging upwards of 40 quid a ticket, that the likes of Gillingham are a better bet.

Medway is a large urban area, which would supply a decent bedrock of 'working class' support, plus Kent has affluent areas like Rochester, Tunbridge Wells, Maidstone, Sevenoaks, all within easy travelling distance to Medway.

If an Arab billionaire built Gillingham FC a state-of-the-art, 45,000 capacity stadium somewhere like Chatham Docks and spent the money to get them into the PL, then they would easily fill it. Kent has one league club and 1.6m people. Yeah, most wouldn't be ardent Gills fans at first, but the next generation would be.

Sheffield, by comparison, is a relatively small and poor city with two football clubs and a very deep divide between them. I just think you would get more return from a top 10 PL Gillingham FC than a top 10 Sheffield United / Wednesday in the long-term. Gillingham could charge more for tickets and a lot more for corporate. After a few years of finishing between 8th and 12th would probably still crowds at United or Wednesday plateau at 30,000 odd (less if you look at Sheffield Wednesday's crowds in the PL). Whereas Gillingham would have that huge catchment area to call upon.

I believe the 21st century will see clubs from the south, like Bristol City, Brighton, Portsmouth will overtake the likes of Forest, Wednesday, Stoke City.

 

[Sean Thornton]

That is why you are not a billionaire.

HH

Be wasted on him chucking money away like that.

Cristal Champagne, caviar and high class hookers on tap. Now that's Premier League if you ask me.