Camera van on way to Scunthorpe

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- Greater driver awareness
And that's why we have the limit. Your awareness might be fine. But what about the tit in the German cockmobile who's just pulled onto the motorway and MUST get into the outside lane, irrespective of conditions and the traffic around? If the accident happens within your 'thinking time' distance then you've hit them before you even start braking. Faster speed = greater distance before you start to brake. granted, the difference between 70 and 80 isn't much. But the limit does need to be set somewhere.
As you yourself said, the traffic was so heavy that you didn't notice the camera van. Surely, that should mean you would slow to a speed that is appropriate for the possibility of someone pulling out without looking? Also, it suggests your awareness is not quite what you think it is.

Whilst I agree that 80/90 on an almost empty motorway in the dry is almost certainly safe, doing that same speed where its busy is foolish, whatever your car. Your argument could be taken to be 'I have an expensive performance car, therefore its safe for me to drive fast. But the plebs in their clapped out metros shouldn't be allowed to.' Whilst I appreciate that's probably not what you actually mean, can you see how that could be interpreted as distasteful?

I too had a car that was capable of around 150 mph, had expensive tyres because of the required size, speed and load rating. But I was never so arrogant to believe it made me above the law or better than anyone else on the road. Maybe because it wasn't a german car? ;-)

You see it as 'a risk you can afford' Much the same way as a burglar sees being sent to prison.

I'll add that I agree with you that 'safety' cameras have minimal effect (in fact, recent evidence suggests they may actually have a slight negative effect on safety in some places) and do think that several are sited to catch speeders rather than for safety. I'd be happy with speed cameras on every single lampost in built-up areas and there should be zero tolerance where you're likely to come into direct contact with pedestrians, because you're choosing to put someone else's life at risk. But the focus appears to be on the open road, because its more lucrative. I have a friend who's a motorway policeman. He's pulled people over on the motorway below 70 because their driving was unsafe. He's also let people go 90 because it was quiet, dry etc. Fundamentally, speed cameras can't do this, which is why I'm against them.
 



Go on I'll bite - how is it so easy to get off?

here is a starter.......

First letter back after recieving fine/ticket.......... As the registered keeper of vehicle DY*** KUT I am unsure as to who was driving at the time,please forward copy of photograph so I can advise ......
 
And that's why we have the limit. Your awareness might be fine. But what about the tit in the German cockmobile who's just pulled onto the motorway and MUST get into the outside lane, irrespective of conditions and the traffic around? If the accident happens within your 'thinking time' distance then you've hit them before you even start braking. Faster speed = greater distance before you start to brake. granted, the difference between 70 and 80 isn't much. But the limit does need to be set somewhere.
As you yourself said, the traffic was so heavy that you didn't notice the camera van. Surely, that should mean you would slow to a speed that is appropriate for the possibility of someone pulling out without looking? Also, it suggests your awareness is not quite what you think it is.

Whilst I agree that 80/90 on an almost empty motorway in the dry is almost certainly safe, doing that same speed where its busy is foolish, whatever your car. Your argument could be taken to be 'I have an expensive performance car, therefore its safe for me to drive fast. But the plebs in their clapped out metros shouldn't be allowed to.' Whilst I appreciate that's probably not what you actually mean, can you see how that could be interpreted as distasteful?

I too had a car that was capable of around 150 mph, had expensive tyres because of the required size, speed and load rating. But I was never so arrogant to believe it made me above the law or better than anyone else on the road. Maybe because it wasn't a german car? ;-)

You see it as 'a risk you can afford' Much the same way as a burglar sees being sent to prison.

I'll add that I agree with you that 'safety' cameras have minimal effect (in fact, recent evidence suggests they may actually have a slight negative effect on safety in some places) and do think that several are sited to catch speeders rather than for safety. I'd be happy with speed cameras on every single lampost in built-up areas and there should be zero tolerance where you're likely to come into direct contact with pedestrians, because you're choosing to put someone else's life at risk. But the focus appears to be on the open road, because its more lucrative. I have a friend who's a motorway policeman. He's pulled people over on the motorway below 70 because their driving was unsafe. He's also let people go 90 because it was quiet, dry etc. Fundamentally, speed cameras can't do this, which is why I'm against them.

Thank you for saving me a job Kendal. Good stuff. It's not only the 'pleb' point you make though, it's the 'I am not a danger to others if I break the law' argument I have read into Swiss's posts that I find distasteful.
 
BB, do that and you can be charged with obstructing an investigation or something along those lines. Brought in a few years ago to stop exactly that sort of slimey underhand way of avoiding your responsibilities. The argument being that, as the registered keeper you are responsible for the vehicle and so should be aware of who has access to your vehicle and who is driving it. I think the penalty is generally stiffer than the fine for speeding, and rightly so.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

Thank you for saving me a job Kendal.
That's OK. I find it really odd arguing this way round though. I've had quite a few heated discussions with someone who works for Cumbria Safety Camera Partnership, arguing the case against speed cameras. Ably backed up by my traffic officer friend. Maybe I just like a good argument at times.

That, and I'm a bit bored.

:)
 
So do you think that the UK speed limit is too high, low or just right?

It's a pointless argument, Swiss. Might as well substitute Uk speed limit with UK taxation. But it does allow us to get back to the original argument in a way. It doesn't matter if it's too high, low or just right. Non-compliance is a criminal act.

I'll just add one thing. It might well be true that some people are competent at extremely high speeds. So what? I really can't see the point. As far as I can tell, it's completely irrelevant.
 
In France theres signs on the major roads telling you its ok to drive at 80mph , with a sunshine sign , then 65mph with a rain motif

Fancy treating drivers with some intelligence

The term safety camera is an oxymoron, as Ive seen plenty of shunts where drivers have braked harder than necessary for a camera , from 45mph to 30 in a 40 zone , causing mayhem
theres documented evidence of a pensioner veering off after being flashed and hitting 3 pedestrians at a bus stop killing 2 and he was only doing 25, just panicked
 
Firstly, I would say that 70mph is probably too low but would not favour a large increase or, indeed, an unlimited one. Penalties should be increased at the same time too and should be harsh enough to deter. Think 80mph is probably worth a try and anyone travelling over 100mph automatic disqualification.
The list of countries who have a higher limit is not really relevant as you will still get a ticket if you exceed that limit. France, for example, is 81 mph, but if you exceed that limit you will get a hefty fine and points and they are gradually increasing the number of cameras. I cant speak for the others though I believe Spain is the same.
The notion I have a problem with is that an individual decides that a speed limit is too low and takes it upon him/herself to decide at what speed they can travel safely. I call that arrogant nonsense.
The nuts analogy is just that....nuts!. If you choke yourself you are not going to endanger anyone else...or are you:)
What sppeed do you suggest Swiss....do you just prefer Germany becasue you satisfy your need for speed. If you want to take risks with speed...go on a racetrack and keep it off public roads.
 
And what has all this got to do with sheffield united? because speed is something we don't have.
 
But what about the tit in the German cockmobile who's just pulled onto the motorway and MUST get into the outside lane, irrespective of conditions and the traffic around?

Bit harsh mate, he's a really really good driver, he's told us often enough.....;)
 
I've missed a few days of this, but I found Swiss's 'dont worry, I have £260 tyres' as reassuring as those people who think its OK to drive at 85 in the fog as long as they have put their fog lights on. (or are they deflector shields, Captain?)...
 
here is a starter.......

First letter back after recieving fine/ticket.......... As the registered keeper of vehicle DY*** KUT I am unsure as to who was driving at the time,please forward copy of photograph so I can advise ......

That one doesn't work any more - they changed the law so that Plod didn't have to demonstrate who was driving - the registered keeper is now required to know, and if he insists he doesn't, they'll assume it was the registered keeper and he gets the fine and points.

The speed limit won't change because traffic police usually aren't interested if you are doing 80 or below. If they change the limit to 80 then everyone will assume the effective limit is now 90. It's the same reason for the 20 limit in lots of places - they don't really think that people will do 20, but they hope that most won't exceed 30.

It's a reasonable policy IMHO.
 
My dad always goes on about this speed camera as they now live out in a place called Epworth, if anybody knows it. So easy to go too fast on the M180 with it being so quiet and straight...:eek:
 
I think its time for me to leave this thread alone :)

I have perhaps come across as the spawn of satan for suggesting that the limit isn't necessarily right.

I have obviously come across as arrogant for using my car as an example. I have selected certain features and highlighted things like tyres, but I don't for one minute think that a decent tyre makes me invincible. I'm surprised nobody has really argued against me on the tyre point. Anyone with an ounce of manufacturing experience could rip the tyre argument apart.

Despite what I've been ribbed for, I don't believe that I am a great driver, but I pay a heck of a lot of attention on Motorways and without wanting to be arogant, I've driven all over the world and seen things on roads which would put you off driving forever. In my business, our biggest and most difficult risk to control is on roads. We have sites in Russia, 3 hrs from St Pete and Germany 3 hours from Berlin. Both with massive fast motorway stretches russia has what we would class as an a road, which is treated like a 6 lane motorway, no central reservation and I've seen trucks overtaking trucks whilst been overtaken by cars, with the same coming in the opposite direction. We work extremely closely with H&S to improve the company and contractor standards.

Discussing the speed limit may be a futile exercise, yes it is law but Mic asked me what I thought, I answered then asked his opinion. Which he has also failed to give. Too many happy to tell you you're wrong but can't give a reasoned debate against it.

Blade too long has made some excellent points and I think it takes a little bit of a step back to look at the speed limits and realise that just because the limit is in place, doesn't necessarily mean its right. Just as all of the EU countries which have a higher speed limit and are in the majority, doesn't make them right. The fact is, that studies are not conclusive.

Soccer Cynic has a decent argument and yeah I think that the German system is far more reasonable, not just because of the speed, but the overall etiquette on the road. I saw something about cock's in german cars wanting to get into the fast lane as quick as possible. Well in Germany, when someone flashes you in the fast lane, its not an indication that they want some road rage, its an indication that you're taking up the fast lane and its time for you to move. So rather than be a twat, you move and let the guy pass. I find that the people that hog the middle or fast lane, oblivious to whats around them more of a danger and much more arrogant.
 
Swiss,
I actually agree with you on some points. But its the way you've put the argument across that does nothing except reinforce the stereotype that german car drivers (that is, drivers of german cars, rather than drivers that happen to be german) believe they are better than everyone else and have a god-given right to expect everyone else to get out of their way. As with all stereotypes, its probably not a reasonably generalisation.

I completely agree with you that lane discipline in the UK is terrible. But its not down to arrogance, its down to ignorance. How many people (you included) refer to the inside lane as the 'slow' lane and the outside lane as the 'fast' lane? So if you're in the inside lane, you must be slow, right?

I drive on the M6 down to Manchester quite a lot. Up at my end, its hardly ever busy (except when all the bloody tourists arrive on a Friday) but at Preston, two fairly busy roads join. There's always several prats, invariably in German cars, that try to force their way across 4 lanes into the outside lane, despite the fact that they are going slower than the traffic in the outside lane. But of course, they can stop quickly because of their brakes and £300 tyres. ;)

I've also noticed that drivers of powerful german cars get rather erratic in their driving when they can't keep up with a french diesel van on twisty roads. :D
 



Does anyone remember that episode of Top Gear when they said that it was okay to buy a BMW because all the cocks were now driving Audis?;)
 
I'm not sure it has much to do with German cars. Since returning tom the UK three months ago I have noticed that there is a wide variety of makes of car tanning it in the outside lane.
I do agree that lane discipline is increasingly becoming a lost art though and must cause some frustration.
Nobody has come up with what they think should be the limit...do we really think that we should follow the German example?
There is little alternative to cameras unless you are going to invest a hell of a lot more money in traffic cops who MAY be able to exercise some discretion.
I do believe that there should be a decent margin of error and have always argued that the first time a motorist is caught on camera he/she should be given a written warning. Any further transgression would attract the standard fine.
 
.........the tit in the German cockmobile who's just pulled onto the motorway and MUST get into the outside lane, irrespective of conditions and the traffic around?.......

The official term for the lane on the furthest right is the Krautside Lane.:D
 
I think its time for me to leave this thread alone :)

I have perhaps come across as the spawn of satan for suggesting that the limit isn't necessarily right.

I have obviously come across as arrogant for using my car as an example. I have selected certain features and highlighted things like tyres, but I don't for one minute think that a decent tyre makes me invincible. I'm surprised nobody has really argued against me on the tyre point. Anyone with an ounce of manufacturing experience could rip the tyre argument apart.

Despite what I've been ribbed for, I don't believe that I am a great driver, but I pay a heck of a lot of attention on Motorways and without wanting to be arogant, I've driven all over the world and seen things on roads which would put you off driving forever. In my business, our biggest and most difficult risk to control is on roads. We have sites in Russia, 3 hrs from St Pete and Germany 3 hours from Berlin. Both with massive fast motorway stretches russia has what we would class as an a road, which is treated like a 6 lane motorway, no central reservation and I've seen trucks overtaking trucks whilst been overtaken by cars, with the same coming in the opposite direction. We work extremely closely with H&S to improve the company and contractor standards.

Discussing the speed limit may be a futile exercise, yes it is law but Mic asked me what I thought, I answered then asked his opinion. Which he has also failed to give. Too many happy to tell you you're wrong but can't give a reasoned debate against it.

Blade too long has made some excellent points and I think it takes a little bit of a step back to look at the speed limits and realise that just because the limit is in place, doesn't necessarily mean its right. Just as all of the EU countries which have a higher speed limit and are in the majority, doesn't make them right. The fact is, that studies are not conclusive.

Soccer Cynic has a decent argument and yeah I think that the German system is far more reasonable, not just because of the speed, but the overall etiquette on the road. I saw something about cock's in german cars wanting to get into the fast lane as quick as possible. Well in Germany, when someone flashes you in the fast lane, its not an indication that they want some road rage, its an indication that you're taking up the fast lane and its time for you to move. So rather than be a twat, you move and let the guy pass. I find that the people that hog the middle or fast lane, oblivious to whats around them more of a danger and much more arrogant.

Surely it is blatantly obvious what my view is. 70mph is fine - compared with 80mph it 100% undoubtedly reduces my chances of being killed on the motorway because thankfully most people respect it to some degree. Unfortunately there are people around like you who think they are above the law.
 
Surely it is blatantly obvious what my view is. 70mph is fine - compared with 80mph it 100% undoubtedly reduces my chances of being killed on the motorway because thankfully most people respect it to some degree. Unfortunately there are people around like you who think they are above the law.

Ha so you've never gone about 70 mic?
 
BB, do that and you can be charged with obstructing an investigation or something along those lines. Brought in a few years ago to stop exactly that sort of slimey underhand way of avoiding your responsibilities. The argument being that, as the registered keeper

:)

mmmmmmmmmm............ forgot to say our vehicles are registered to the company........with various drivers...as a director I would pay the fine .....but just how points to licence would be accomplished is another thing and the obstructing an investigation cud be handled by a junior partner and won. Oh and no way am I saying speeding is OK...well not with the standard of driving in the UK anyhow :eek:
 
Beighton, can I work for you please?




Also it seems that the once present Thread Police are seemingly now sat at the roadside with a speed detector gun, :-p
 
And the latest.

I spent all week expecting the speeding notice to hit my doormat, and nothing.

I'm hope i'm not tempting fate though
 
Anything received more than two weeks after the offence can not be applied, not sure if that's still the case but I'm sure I've heard that somewhere, so you should be ok now!
 
Still not heard anything, so i'm guessing i saw it early enough and hit the brakes early enough.
 



>he speed limts are there for a reason, however much you disagree with that reason
To make money for the socialists down at S1 :D
 

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