Blades Analytics on Sheffield Live

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Chali 2na said:
Probably due to a level playing field...
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Nah, pitches were fucked in then days. Like ploughed fields.


I watched a good documentary on Shankly and his key principles were very similar to Pep’s golden rules. The basics haven’t changed. Sign players who show humility and put the team before themselves, strong characters with the right attitudes, get them doing what they’re good at.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
the idea of ‘working your way up’ is outdated and not viewed on as a plus point. It’s a quaint view held by people who talk wistfully about ‘working their way up’, ‘Starting on the bottom rung’ or ‘Starting on the shop floor’. Far better to have experience of dealing with modern professional players, coach the youth side of as best club as you can & a Pro Licence as early as possible. Like I said, it doesn’t cut much ice at interviews.
.
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Which is probably why so many are wank managers. If 95% of the current lot at started at Alfreton, they'd be running a pub now.
 
mattbianco1 said:
Watch the fecking video then :oops:

But basically, the left of the chart is the defence side of their games. Notice Evans is skewed to the left:

View attachment 43384

Then you bring Norwood in and see the spikes on the right - Forward Passes and Key Passes:

View attachment 43385
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Is Norwoods' based on 2 games he's played for us?

If that's the case it's hardly a representative sample.
 
Maidenhead said:
Is Norwoods' based on 2 games he's played for us?

If that's the case it's hardly a representative sample.
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It’s representative of the games he’s played for us and shows what he’s done to make the dramatic impact he’s had.

I’m guessing similar stats are available for his spells with Fulham, Brighton etc and if they follow a pattern, it’s a reasonable indication of his technical skill set. Then you add that to watching him a number of times (and with different people watching him), background checks on his character etc and it builds up a fair picture of the player and whether or not he’s suitable to buy.
 
BushBlade said:
Nah, pitches were fucked in then days. Like ploughed fields.


I watched a good documentary on Shankly and his key principles were very similar to Pep’s golden rules. The basics haven’t changed. Sign players who show humility and put the team before themselves, strong characters with the right attitudes, get them doing what they’re good at.
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Can you remember the name of the documentary by any chance?

What's funny, is that your last two sentences could apply to just about any team sport - makes you wonder about how much is down to motivation and attitude, as opposed to tactical direction.
 
mattbianco1 said:
No. They're his stats from playing for Fulham last season.
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Thanks mattbianco1

Makes more sense that way but could be hugely influenced by the fact that Fulham were a better team than us going forward so it's not really fair to draw a straight comparison between him and Stephens.

Bloody statistics eh
 
alcoblade said:
I think the stats might be useful to calculate the effect Norwood was going to make.
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As my dear old granddad used to say "They used the same swords at Waterloo, as they did at Peterloo". The same statistical analysis that brought us Norwood (hallowed be your name) got us Holmes, Evans, Carruthers and Wilson. Unless, we've now paid the licence fee and moved off the shareware version of the software. ;)
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
As my dear old granddad used to say "They used the same swords at Waterloo, as they did at Peterloo". The same statistical analysis that brought us Norwood (hallowed be your name) got us Holmes, Evans, Carruthers and Wilson. Unless, we've now paid the licence fee and moved off the shareware version of the software. ;)
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I’m not particularly vouching for it, just stating that we can only hope that it predicts something. There is no real value in describing what’s just happened.
 



mattbianco1 said:
Alan Biggs - I don't dislike him as such, but he's poor as a journo and terrible as a presenter. He's just awkward
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I used to think the same, however he puts a lot of his opinion on twitter about all local clubs and i used to follow him. I mentioned this before, so apologies for repeating myself

I occasionally commented on things he wrote, sometimes in agreement, but often in disagreement. I commented on Wednesday last season when he'd once again been overly forgiving of them, he was on the Jos and Chansiri bandwagon. I politely disagreed and commented why and he reluctantly engaged me in twitter chat.

At a certain point, when i was highlighting the failings of SWFC and how i thought they weren't just having a bad run, but are a bad side, he decided to say "and this is why i don't discuss teams with opposition fans". I wasn't slagging them off for the sake of it, but i was questioning what he was saying, once again. Since then i've not followed him.

I watched the Blades Analytics interview and i think, like when Matt Prestridge was in the studio discussing the sports science side, with the Blades Analytics guy Biggs plays the ignorant old school journalist... at least i hope he plays this role (presumably to allow the guest to explain themselves in laymans terms)

One such example was that Biggs used to get the Opta stats when he was doing commentary and it was like a book so he threw it to the side and just commentated. This has been fine for the likes of Keith Edwards for years as the expert summariser doesn't always need stats, however i think nowadays the audience wants more than to hear that number 5 has passed to number 6 in square 4.

It was mentioned on the interview that Blades Analytics data is used by the likes of Kev Gage in both his articles and his commentary with iFollow. Same can be said for Danny04

Its quite an american approach, i recently watched 'moneyball' and the approach was dismissed by the old school managers, scouts and coaches.

I think the way that modern, progressive football teams gain success nowadays is finding a blend. Wilder says that he's old school, but his methods at the club are blending old school principles of liking a player along with statistics based on performances and the sports science parts which go hand in hand with fitness.

Something which Ricky touched on was that whilst Enda Stevens has good stats on paper, the performances that we see don't match up and he's not suddenly going to start producing assists. I think this is where the stats play their part.

The stats can be used to focus on the areas which need improvement, so whilst an immediate impact on teh assists probably won't happen, but this could be seen as something for the coaches to work on, getting Stevens further up the pitch, bringing him into play more so that he can put those balls in from better positions to provide an assist.
 
alcoblade said:
I’m not particularly vouching for it, just stating that we can only hope that it predicts something. There is no real value in describing what’s just happened.
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Im sure you didn’t mean it this way but it’s not a predictor.

What it does is strip any subjectivity out and look at the previous data to show specific areas where a player is stronger/ weaker

It enables us to put a value on a player based on their current stats

But perhaps more importantly allow us an insight on how we they can be used in a formation and also develop them

It doesn’t predict that a player will be good, but strips back to the data to allow us to assess if he could be good
 
EddieColquhoun said:
Ricky at Bolton just one day later:
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I know, perfect timing. He was due one. Will he keep it up though?

It has to be said that it was an ideal game for our wing backs yesterday, as we were dominating a team who left their full backs quite isolated.

Freeman also had plenty of joy.

No exaggeration to say they could've easily scored 3 goals between them, including one within 25 seconds for Stevens.
 
SwissBlade said:
Im sure you didn’t mean it this way but it’s not a predictor.

What it does is strip any subjectivity out and look at the previous data to show specific areas where a player is stronger/ weaker

It enables us to put a value on a player based on their current stats

But perhaps more importantly allow us an insight on how we they can be used in a formation and also develop them

It doesn’t predict that a player will be good, but strips back to the data to allow us to assess if he could be good
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Yeah, bad wording. What I mean is it can only have any value in helping us shape what’s going to happen. The past can’t be altered.
 
SwissBlade said:
I used to think the same, however he puts a lot of his opinion on twitter about all local clubs and i used to follow him. I mentioned this before, so apologies for repeating myself

I occasionally commented on things he wrote, sometimes in agreement, but often in disagreement. I commented on Wednesday last season when he'd once again been overly forgiving of them, he was on the Jos and Chansiri bandwagon. I politely disagreed and commented why and he reluctantly engaged me in twitter chat.

At a certain point, when i was highlighting the failings of SWFC and how i thought they weren't just having a bad run, but are a bad side, he decided to say "and this is why i don't discuss teams with opposition fans". I wasn't slagging them off for the sake of it, but i was questioning what he was saying, once again. Since then i've not followed him.

I watched the Blades Analytics interview and i think, like when Matt Prestridge was in the studio discussing the sports science side, with the Blades Analytics guy Biggs plays the ignorant old school journalist... at least i hope he plays this role (presumably to allow the guest to explain themselves in laymans terms)

One such example was that Biggs used to get the Opta stats when he was doing commentary and it was like a book so he threw it to the side and just commentated. This has been fine for the likes of Keith Edwards for years as the expert summariser doesn't always need stats, however i think nowadays the audience wants more than to hear that number 5 has passed to number 6 in square 4.

It was mentioned on the interview that Blades Analytics data is used by the likes of Kev Gage in both his articles and his commentary with iFollow. Same can be said for Danny04

Its quite an american approach, i recently watched 'moneyball' and the approach was dismissed by the old school managers, scouts and coaches.

I think the way that modern, progressive football teams gain success nowadays is finding a blend. Wilder says that he's old school, but his methods at the club are blending old school principles of liking a player along with statistics based on performances and the sports science parts which go hand in hand with fitness.

Something which Ricky touched on was that whilst Enda Stevens has good stats on paper, the performances that we see don't match up and he's not suddenly going to start producing assists. I think this is where the stats play their part.

The stats can be used to focus on the areas which need improvement, so whilst an immediate impact on teh assists probably won't happen, but this could be seen as something for the coaches to work on, getting Stevens further up the pitch, bringing him into play more so that he can put those balls in from better positions to provide an assist.
Click to expand...

I copped for some yesterday. I commented on the tackle on Forestieri saying he was a cheat as he won the ball.

God they all came for me, one bloke said typical blade commenting on us even after they've won 3 nil. Well, that tweet got lots of like and I eventually had to turn my notifications off.

I have now seen a slow-mo of it and he does actually get studs on his ankle :oops:
 
mattbianco1 said:
I copped for some yesterday. I commented on the tackle on Forestieri saying he was a cheat as he won the ball.

God they all came for me, one bloke said typical blade commenting on us even after they've won 3 nil. Well, that tweet got lots of like and I eventually had to turn my notifications off.

I have now seen a slow-mo of it and he does actually get studs on his ankle :oops:
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Ha ha unlucky mate! The funny thing with my discussion was that there were no Wednesday fans chipping in supporting Biggs...
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
It’s amazing that managers like stein, Clough, shankly, revie and paisley could operate so successfully in an era before statistical analysis.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. :)
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Revie was an obnoxious corrupt cheat. A crook and a twat. He does not belong in such company.
 
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Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
I supppose it’s a moot point. :)
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As is your pretentious ‘overpassing in transition’ waffle. I can beat your forty decades by a good way and know that when you have possession you can score; without it, you can’t.

You want a tiny bit of hoof, don’t you? Go on, be brave.
 
Pinchy said:
As is your pretentious ‘overpassing in transition’ waffle. I can beat your forty decades by a good way and know that when you have possession you can score; without it, you can’t.

You want a tiny bit of hoof, don’t you? Go on, be brave.
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It may be pretentious waffle to you, but it's a fairly well used term in modern football, not just by me. It's defined as 'the process of recognition and response in the first few moments following the regain or loss of possession'. Most top level teams are focusing on taking advantage this situation and being more positive when they regain the ball, because the opposition’s defence & midfield isn't set and is often disorganised. We have a habit of involving three players in shorter square passes at this time, when two more expansive passes would be more beneficial, still passing to feet, but a little quicker and with a little more purpose. Norwood's introduction has dramatically improved this, as he's positive in his play & has the passing ability to match. In the article linked below, I'd guess that Norwood would be described as 'Attacking oriented', whilst Evans and Lundstram would be unfortunately described as 'Latecomers'. :(

https://fabfootballbrain.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/positive-transition-in-modern-football/
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
Yes, i listened to it. I wouldn't comment on it if I didn't. :)

Overall, I don't like the cold, clinical, mathematical break down of the game, but that's the way the game is going. As I said, I didn't need statistics to tell me the improvement Norwood has made. BA obviously have stats that back this view up. Conversely, I don't agree with the statistical support of Clarke. But hey, i'm a Luddite. :)
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I knew it, I bloody knew it . E.P.Thompson was wrong about Gravener Henson, it's you isn't it ? You are Ned Ludd, our General, our King of the Luddites :)

Seriously though, I do agree with you to an extent about the dangers of over relying upon statistics whilst both watching and managing in football . There is literally nothing better in football than good solid experience in the game . Wilder has it in abundance . But even he knows statistical analysis is an invaluable tool when used in tandem with good common sense and an experienced eye .
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
It may be pretentious waffle to you, but it's a fairly well used term in modern football, not just by me. It's defined as 'the process of recognition and response in the first few moments following the regain or loss of possession'. Most top level teams are focusing on taking advantage this situation and being more positive when they regain the ball, because the opposition’s defence & midfield isn't set and is often disorganised. We have a habit of involving three players in shorter square passes at this time, when two more expansive passes would be more beneficial, still passing to feet, but a little quicker and with a little more purpose. Norwood's introduction has dramatically improved this, as he's positive in his play & has the passing ability to match. In the article linked below, I'd guess that Norwood would be described as 'Attacking oriented', whilst Evans and Lundstram would be unfortunately described as 'Latecomers'. :(

https://fabfootballbrain.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/positive-transition-in-modern-football/
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It’s defined as pretentious drivel by someone who has played and observed the game for 55 years.

Presumably you have studied Charles Hughes and his POMO shite as well?

Football is a simple game; complicated by simpletons.
 
Pinchy said:
It’s defined as pretentious drivel by someone who has played and observed the game for 55 years.

Presumably you have studied Charles Hughes and his POMO shite as well?

Football is a simple game; complicated by simpletons.
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Yes, I'm aware of Hughes & POMO, as well as the work of Reep. They were both men of their time, with theories to match. Neither would produce a style of football that I'd enjoy watching. Strangely enough, Reep could be seen as the start of the collation and analysis of football statistics.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
Yes, I'm aware of Hughes & POMO, as well as the work of Reep. They were both men of their time, with theories to match. Neither would produce a style of football that I'd enjoy watching.
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You are too generous. Such theories blighted the beautiful game for decades and significantly damaged our own club. They were statistic-obsessed theoretical buffoons who had no idea how to play the game and would now busy themselves on Computer Football Manager.

Try not to go the same way. There is no substitute for talented footballers. The great managers all knew and applied that simple rule. Sorry to lecture, but you started it, I’m afraid.
 



alcoblade said:
Yeah, bad wording. What I mean is it can only have any value in helping us shape what’s going to happen. The past can’t be altered.
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The point about descriptive and predictive stats really is bang on the money.

A lot of stats is basically the equivalent of a report of yesterday's weather. The real value is in forecasting. And that is possible. But much harder.

The original Moneyball project in the early 2000s, ie Billy Beane using "sabermetrics" (the name coined for baseball specific stats) to recruit for the Oakland Athletics, and their subsequent success, showed that stats could have some very useful predictive power, in baseball at least.

Hoofing it forrads a few years, Matthew Benham adapted and developed these ideas, and began to apply them to football - ours (soccer), not theirs (American) - and, as far as I can tell, originally used his understanding of stats* to make a lot of money.

Enough to buy his local team, Brentford.

Applying stats to football, Brentford were promoted the season after, and are now obviously, an established Championship team with an eye on the Premiership.

Benham also invested in FC Midtjylland in Denmark, who went on to win the League for the first time.

This is a really good 15' documentary about Benham's methods, stats in general, and Midtjylland's and Brentford's success, all from a fan's perspective. It's well worth a watch. (And a lot clearer than whatever I'm typing here.)



Closer to home, and with all the usual (and genuine) statistical caveats about small sample sizes etc Blades Analytics was pretty clear that the stats showed that so far this season Bolton had been over-performing. At some point they were expected to regress (ie start getting the results their performances had deserved) and yesterday was a great time for that to happen. :)


TLDR: Yes, stats can have predictive power (and a lot of it), but you really need to know what you're doing.



*He's a very private person, but Googling it looks like he has a Physics degree from Oxford, and there is a lot of statistics in higher level physics.
 
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