Blackman debate over?

[Bergen Blade]

True, however would we want to keep the ones on short term contracts when we get promoted? we already have 3 on long term contracts on whom people are divided.

Could this be part of a plan, use them to get us up see who we think are good enough to keep us there and attempt to sign them on and do not resign the others

If they all contribute to us getting promoted I can see Higginbotham and Robson being awarded with new contracts, and we may well be trying to sign Forte too.

 

[metalblade]

If they all contribute to us getting promoted I can see Higginbotham and Robson being awarded with new contracts, and we may well be trying to sign Forte too.

Dear God no ...................... Forte might be useful, the others are too old .......................... and slow. That is the trouble with loans and old hands on short term deals at the end of the season we have to start to rebuild again rather than getting younger players who can grow with the club as we progress.

 

[alcoblade]

Can you name one of these mccabeophiles or did you just make them up ?

You. Do you want more?

It's not an insult BTW, but I'm sure you'll try to make it so.

UTB

 

[puppet]

True, however would we want to keep the ones on short term contracts when we get promoted? we already have 3 on long term contracts on whom people are divided.

Could this be part of a plan, use them to get us up see who we think are good enough to keep us there and attempt to sign them on and do not resign the others

Without wishing to be funny, your points underline most of the disillusioned ones to a tee. We have gotten rid of a youthful, top scorer and replaced him with loans/short terms and one player signed permanently (before he was even touted as leaving). I'm happy with what seemingly looks like a revival of fortune but we're talking in raves about Forte who has scored and is now out injured and the jury is out on all the other players who have come in and its papered over the cracks of yet another deadline day capitulation, saleswise, which really is NOT a good way to plan for the future.

UTB

 

[louthblade]

Without wishing to be funny, your points underline most of the disillusioned ones to a tee. We have gotten rid of a youthful, top scorer and replaced him with loans/short terms and one player signed permanently (before he was even touted as leaving). I'm happy with what seemingly looks like a revival of fortune but we're talking in raves about Forte who has scored and is now out injured and the jury is out on all the other players who have come in and its papered over the cracks of yet another deadline day capitulation, saleswise, which really is NOT a good way to plan for the future.

UTB

Not disillusioned although I should be .

I, at first , stopped going, for a while, after Jones and Birchenall I was a very disillusioned callow youth in those days , then I saw TC's debut against Spurs when he tore a very good centre half, Mike England I think, apart and I was hooked again until well the frequent sales.

I am now just hopeful that the powers that be now realise what, in both a football and financial way, a very tough league the Championship is becoming.

We hopefully are using the short term contracts knowing that we will need to pay a lot more out in the championship to stay out of the relegation spots next year and then to progress in future seasons.

I'm hoping rather than expecting that this is the business plan we now have and that we can follow Swansea's path onwards and upwards.

Hopeful yes, Realist yes, disillusioned well I live between Lincoln and Grimsby and believe me my friends are disillusioned. I'm not saying that Grimsby and Lincoln are in any way comparable to the RAWW of course

But most importantly I'm a blade for over 50 years and will continue to be.

 

[puppet]

We hopefully are using the short term contracts knowing that we will need to pay a lot more out in the championship to stay out of the relegation spots next year and then to progress in future seasons. - but thats the real short termism that saw us relegated down the leagues in the late 70s early 80s... I do fear if we don't make it up this year, we will go down next.

That Spurs game was my first game. I still have the programme with a few autographs including the new, modest TC, signed at the time A Currie (anyone who has ever seen his autograph will know how odd that is!)

 

[louthblade]

We hopefully are using the short term contracts knowing that we will need to pay a lot more out in the championship to stay out of the relegation spots next year and then to progress in future seasons. - but thats the real short termism that saw us relegated down the leagues in the late 70s early 80s... I do fear if we don't make it up this year, we will go down next.

That Spurs game was my first game. I still have the programme with a few autographs including the new, modest TC, signed at the time A Currie (anyone who has ever seen his autograph will know how odd that is!)

I share your worries on this - the only crumb of comfort I give myself if that happens is that I really enjoyed the away days , obviously Darlington, in the 4th division year.

However although I'm not convinced about DW as a manager to get us up I'm sure he is far better than happy Harry and the ill fated Martin Peters

Was the centre half Mike England? as I seem to recollect TC flicking the ball over Mike's head.

 

[Kev Gee]

Am i right in saying NOT planning long term has got us were we are now??

And if we do get back up, were do we go from there?
We will need almost an entire new squad.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Dear God no ...................... Forte might be useful, the others are too old .......................... and slow.

Wouldn't rule out Robson for a longer stay should we reach the Championship. What we've seen so far is a Robson low on fitness due to where we've signed him from - Wilson is already saying he'll be able to do more when he gains match fitness. Robson's 34 - Stuart McCall was slow and was a huge influence for us in the Championship aged 39. Glen Little was a class above what we had at the club during his short spell, but lacked fitness - though he strikes me as the sort of player that might have been less careful about maintaining his fitness by the time he joined us. Robson may well be here for a few years.

 

[Balham]

If they all contribute to us getting promoted I can see Higginbotham and Robson being awarded with new contracts, and we may well be trying to sign Forte too.

I can understand the reasoning behind an extended deal for Robson but not Higginbotham. We should be looking for younger, more "hungry" players for back up in defence and we've already got a 32 year old reserve in Hill.

Forte's signing I'd support if it was for the right money. He's at an age now where he needs to settle at a club and play first team football - why not at his boyhood club?

 

[louthblade]

Am i right in saying NOT planning long term has got us were we are now??

And if we do get back up, were do we go from there?
We will need almost an entire new squad.

This is my point perhaps we are now planning!!!! - We can try to keep the short term contract guys who we consider will " do a job" in the championship and supplement them with better championship players than we have now.

One of the many worries I have about finances is what will promotion do to the contracts of Doyle and Collins? We were told that their pay was reduced for 1st division football is there an agreement for it to increase should we get promoted. This will restrict the Manager's, who ever it may be, budget.

Will we then be able to afford the entire new squad - I wish I knew

 

[broomhillblade]

For me, the most dissappointing aspect of our current situation is the fact we have followed the "blueprint to destruction" that we put together in the Seventies almost to the letter.

Step 1. Bricks and Mortar are more impotrant than players.
Step 2. Sell your better players (initially to cover the B&M).
Step 3. Recruit lesser players to relace those in Step 2.
Step 4. Lesser players will serioulsy damage your league position and income.
Step 5. Go to Step 2 to cover the losses made by Step 4.

If ANY club should have learned from mistakes made in the past it as this one.

I thought our problems were more to do with an overinflated wage bill - particularly on a succession of senior executives who didn't achieve a great deal but were paid a fortune.

 

[Grecian2000]

In effect Broomers, that's the crux of the whole debate about McCabe.

Did he spunk money away primarily on the TEAM (transfers, wages etc.) or did he waste it on building projects (i.e. hotels, office blocks, foreign "opportunities")?
The answer might be both, but I think the degree of trust you have in the man stems from how you view his spending. Those who think the former think he's unlucky but benevolent, those who think the latter think he's an evil destroyer with nothing but personal profit on his mind.

The truth is somewhere inbetween but the polarisation is there in the minds of a lot of supporters.

 

[alcoblade]

In effect Broomers, that's the crux of the whole debate about McCabe.

Did he spunk money away primarily on the TEAM (transfers, wages etc.) or did he waste it on building projects (i.e. hotels, office blocks, foreign "opportunities")?
The answer might be both, but I think the degree of trust you have in the man stems from how you view his spending. Those who think the former think he's unlucky but benevolent, those who think the latter think he's an evil destroyer with nothing but personal profit on his mind.

The truth is somewhere inbetween but the polarisation is there in the minds of a lot of supporters.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between too. I've moved to the dark side, but I still believe he started with the club's best intentions at heart, though he was irresponsible with his ambitions outside football, vain is things like the WC bid and appointing Robson, and the club is left to pay the price.

I still think he has the club at heart, but behind a whole series of other priorities, mainly getting as much cash back as possible whenever it presents itself.


UTB

 

[metalblade]

Wouldn't rule out Robson for a longer stay should we reach the Championship. What we've seen so far is a Robson low on fitness due to where we've signed him from - Wilson is already saying he'll be able to do more when he gains match fitness. Robson's 34 - Stuart McCall was slow and was a huge influence for us in the Championship aged 39. Glen Little was a class above what we had at the club during his short spell, but lacked fitness - though he strikes me as the sort of player that might have been less careful about maintaining his fitness by the time he joined us. Robson may well be here for a few years.

To every rule there is always an exception McCall, Giggs etc are these exceptions most players by the age of 33/34 are at the end of their careers. even if Robson, Kitson, Cresswell, Higginbottom or Doyle were in the same category of class as Macca or Giggs then the team would only be able to carry one of them two at most, five over 30 is half the team. First off it makes the team slow and restricts opportunity to bring youngsters through the ranks, then secondly you have to replace half the team year on year. We need more players in their mid twenties at the moment we have a squad with a fair amount of youngsters and over 30's with nothing much in between.

 

[alcoblade]

To every rule there is always an exception McCall, Giggs etc are these exceptions most players by the age of 33/34 are at the end of their careers. even if Robson, Kitson, Cresswell, Higginbottom or Doyle were in the same category of class as Macca or Giggs then the team would only be able to carry one of them two at most, five over 30 is half the team. First off it makes the team slow and restricts opportunity to bring youngsters through the ranks, then secondly you have to replace half the team year on year. We need more players in their mid twenties at the moment we have a squad with a fair amount of youngsters and over 30's with nothing much in between.

I agree with the gist of that, but I don't think we're an old team overall - 3 over 30's (is that right?) doesn't seem too high.

I wouldn't be paying much for an over 30's full back in our predicament though.

UTB

 

[Balham]

I agree with the gist of that, but I don't think we're an old team overall - 3 over 30's (is that right?) doesn't seem too high.

I wouldn't be paying much for an over 30's full back in our predicament though.

UTB

The starting XI against Colchester had 4 over 30s in:

Long (19)
McMahon (26)
Maguire (19)
Collins (29)
Higginbotham (34)
Robson (34)
Doyle (31)
McDonald (24)
Flynn (24)
Kitson (33)
Murphy (23)

However, there's an argument that only two of those are undisputed first choices - Kitson and Doyle.

 

[alcoblade]

The starting XI against Colchester had 4 over 30s in:

Long (19)
McMahon (26)
Maguire (19)
Collins (29)
Higginbotham (34)
Robson (34)
Doyle (31)
McDonald (24)
Flynn (24)
Kitson (33)
Murphy (23)

However, there's an argument that only two of those are undisputed first choices - Kitson and Doyle.

Ah yes - and the one I forgot about was Doyle!


UTB

 

[Bladesway]

Not every player sale is a betrayal. This one was good business, like the equally controversial Slew. NB will, I fear, prove the point in much the same way as Jordan.

Flawed logic in my opinion. We sell Blackman for £1.2m (assuming that to be the case) and we don't get promoted then its an expensive mistake. With him we almost certainly had a better chance of going up. It doesn't matter what the player goes for in the future elsewhere. We all know Ched going down cost us promotion, both with morale and lack of goals.

A player sale is a betrayal if it is directly against the policy the Chairman set out only 6 months previous.

 

[metalblade]

The starting XI against Colchester had 4 over 30s in:

Long (19)
McMahon (26)
Maguire (19)
Collins (29)
Higginbotham (34)
Robson (34)
Doyle (31)
McDonald (24)
Flynn (24)
Kitson (33)
Murphy (23)

However, there's an argument that only two of those are undisputed first choices - Kitson and Doyle.

Subs;-
Coyne (39)
Westlake (23)
Hill (32)
McFadzean(19)
Poleon (loan)
Ironside (19)
De Girolamo (17)

a bench of over 30's and under 20's and westlake at 23yrs

 

[Darren]

Subs;-
Coyne (39)
Westlake (23)
Hill (32)
McFadzean(19)
Poleon (loan)
Ironside (19)
De Girolamo (17)

a bench of over 30's and under 20's and westlake at 23yrs

Poleon is 19. A matchday 18 where one third are teenagers is pretty high.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Wouldn't rule out Robson for a longer stay should we reach the Championship. What we've seen so far is a Robson low on fitness due to where we've signed him from - Wilson is already saying he'll be able to do more when he gains match fitness. Robson's 34 - Stuart McCall was slow and was a huge influence for us in the Championship aged 39. Glen Little was a class above what we had at the club during his short spell, but lacked fitness - though he strikes me as the sort of player that might have been less careful about maintaining his fitness by the time he joined us. Robson may well be here for a few years.

Veterans can sometimes be ideal, just what the team needs, but there can also come a time where they suddenly, almost overnight, lose the bit of pace and athleticism that makes them lose out in challenges and short sprints. McCall became a liability as he turned 39 in 2003/04, something which also happened to the likes of Wayne Allison, Craig Short, David Unsworth, Gary Speed, Richard Cresswell after originally doing well for us.

Many players like to make light hearted comments like "I never had much pace anyway" or "my game has never relied on pace". They are admitting that their fitness is deteriorating, but claiming it's not relevant, suggesting they could play on forever. It wasn't the lightening pace and athleticism that made the players mentioned do well for us, but they had enough to get by. For a while. At some stage that ends.

Those players mentioned all did well for us originally (I liked all of them, and Little too), but over the years we've also made numerous signings which have been largely disappointing because they'd already reached the point where their experience could no longer compensate for their lack of fitness, i.e. the likes of Ashley Ward, Geoff Horsfield, Ade Akinbiyie, Garry Flitcroft, Ian Rush, Paul Parker, Iffy Onoura, Jonathan Fortune, Andy Goram, James Harper, Lee Hendrie, James Beattie (2nd time), Sun Jihai, Alan Wright etc.

We'll have to see for how long Robson can keep going, but I'd certainly be concerned if we offered a long term contract after getting promoted.

 

[Grecian2000]

, i.e. the likes of A***** W***, Geoff Horsfield, Ade Akinbiyie, Garry Flitcroft, Ian Rush, Paul Parker, Iffy Onoura, Jonathan Fortune, Andy Goram, James Harper, Lee Hendrie, James Beattie (2nd time), Sun Jihai, Alan Wright etc.

Bit harsh on Andy Goram there Bergs. He just kept leaving it to his other self.

 

[JohnDenver]

Random unrelated Bergen Blade post:

I've been coming up with nothing but nonsense when trying to translate an Erik Tonne retweet about a certain ex-Blade.

"Tur til Sheffield og @eriktonne i boks i påskeferien. Fotball, casino og sikkert en tur å besøk Ched Evans i buret står på agendaen!"

Something about ending up in a cage with Ched. I hope it's horribly inappropriate.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Random unrelated Bergen Blade post:

I've been coming up with nothing but nonsense when trying to translate an Erik Tonne retweet about a certain ex-Blade.

"Tur til Sheffield og @eriktonne i boks i påskeferien. Fotball, casino og sikkert en tur å besøk Ched Evans i buret står på agendaen!"

Something about ending up in a cage with Ched. I hope it's horribly inappropriate.

"Trip to Sheffield and @eriktonne sorted for the Easter holidays. Football, casino and probably a trip to visit Ched Evans in the cage is on the agenda".

Think the guy just said it for a laugh, no offence intended.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

over the years we've also made numerous signings which have been largely disappointing because they'd already reached the point where their experience could no longer compensate for their lack of fitness, i.e. the likes of Ashley Ward, Geoff Horsfield, Ade Akinbiyie, Garry Flitcroft, Ian Rush, Paul Parker, Iffy Onoura, Jonathan Fortune, Andy Goram, James Harper, Lee Hendrie, James Beattie (2nd time), Sun Jihai, Alan Wright etc.

Hendrie had only just turned 30 when he joined us.

Wouldn't say his legs had gone, he was just a nob who couldn't care less.

 

[broomhillblade]

Blackman debate well and truly over.

 

[JohnDenver]

Blackman debate well and truly over.

Tell me that when we're in the Championship. No really - please!

 

[broomhillblade]

Tell me that when we're in the Championship. No really - please!

We're doing better (i.e. as a better balanced team) without him. What is there to argue about?

 

[JohnDenver]

We're doing better (i.e. as a better balanced team) without him. What is there to argue about?

I very much agree we're better for the JTW, but according to the chairman we didn't have to sell Blackman to bring players in. So we could have been even stronger now, and with one more player of great potential.

If we go up I think Wilson's acumen will have helped the Chairman dodge a bullet or two. Fingers crossed...