Baxter was the difference

[Woodwardfan]

yep, I take your point - but since Shrewsbury - which a few agree was a turning point with Adkins, we have consistently played with Basham/Coutts & Hammond in midfield. We were initially solid and boring - then solid and better.

Hey ho, we bring Baxter back and........3 conceded.

For me it's simple - to make the playoffs this season, we have to use the Hammond/basham/coutts midfield as much as possible - particularly away from home. If you are going to play Baxter then playing him away is not the best use.

Baxter has had numerous chances of playing all over our midfield and has generally failed.

Would rather we are solid, tough, strong and bully the opposition. Baxter is incapable of this type of football. It is nothing personal with Baxter, it's the possible thought of a 6th season

We might get out being solid - IMHO we won't get out trying to be more fancy dan, tippy tappy - it gets the fans backs up.

UTB

Hey ho, Flynn was back in the team as well that night, but I always maintain Baxter is a No.10 and nothing else. Reed on the other hand operates in a greater part of the field.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Depends which stats you look at ,if you look at results which is the most important we are better off without him.

Can you back up that comment Sitwell? I'd be interested.

 

[sitwell]

He played up to Shrewsbury we were shit and leaking goals and points ,he didn't play after that ,we were less shit played as a team conceded 2 in 5 and started getting wins and points. He came back against Wigan and we concede 3. You could have read the thread it has been mentioned numerous times. Still interested Woodwardfan ?

 

[Woodwardfan]

He played up to Shrewsbury we were shit and leaking goals and points ,he didn't play after that ,we were less shit played as a team conceded 2 in 5 and started getting wins and points. He came back against Wigan and we concede 3. You could have read the thread it has been mentioned numerous times. Still interested Woodwardfan ?

You're not that simple Sitwell! Come on produce the stats.

 

[1889blade]

For his faults, one thing Baxter will always guarantee you is goals and assists.

A midfield 4 of coutts/Hammond/basham/woolford (120 league goals combined over almost 1200 games) is never going to give you enough creativity and/or goals for a promotion winning side over a 46 game season.

For me, prioritise sorting the centre of the defence out (2 years later!!) and don't even consider selling Baxter until we have a creative midfielder at the club who is better.

 

[Woodwardfan]

You're not that simple Sitwell! Come on produce the stats.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Sitwell.

I've done the stats:

Total games 1.48 per game.

When Baxter started 1.36 per game.

As Baxter is top of the assists and second top goalscorer, maybe the tolerance is allowable, but yes you were right Sitwell - nowhere near to the degree you said but I realise it was for effect.

We all know Baxter has had a difficult personal time and a stop start season. It helps nobody.

Clough played him up front on his own. Adkins has played him in the central two in 4-4-2 and out wide.

Play the lad as a No.10 or not at all.

Play him there and he will produce. I have no doubts whatsoever, but I have serious doubts whether he deserves another chance.

What do they say "Gifted players are allowed more transgressions than ordinary players".

They also say "one bad apple can sour a whole basket".

 

[sitwell]

Hes more like a number 2 I think
Describe to me what you mean by a number 10 and how he would fit into our team.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Hes more like a number 2 I think
Describe to me what you mean by a number 10 and how he would fit into our team.

My interpretation of a 'No.10' is the free role between midfield and the one or two strikers depending on the formation. The role is usually given to the creator in the team and he is generally absolved from defensive duties though not for the full 90 minutes if his team is under the cosh, nevertheless his area of the pitch often helps to plug a natural gap ' between the lines' defensively. It is a difficult position for the opposition to mark and usually a midfielder drops deeper to cover.

 

[judge]

The main problem is that we don't have 11 first team players that are all suited to the same formation.

I get reminded of the endless debates about Gerard, Lampard (and Scholes) and watching various managers try to shoehorn them into the England side whilst accommodating Owen.

It's hard enough trying to fit Done and Sharp into a 442 without throwing Baxter and JCR in the mix when we have defenders who aren't good at one on ones and lack pace.

Accomodating owen ?
One of only a few truly world class players england have had in the last couple of decades ?

 

[sitwell]

My interpretation of a 'No.10' is the free role between midfield and the one or two strikers depending on the formation. The role is usually given to the creator in the team and he is generally absolved from defensive duties though not for the full 90 minutes if his team is under the cosh, nevertheless his area of the pitch often helps to plug a natural gap ' between the lines' defensively. It is a difficult position for the opposition to mark and usually a midfielder drops deeper to cover.

Simply cant be done these days at this level ,would be like playing with 10 men. We all loved the days of Currie ,Worthington ,Hudson and Marsh etc ,but we would get absolutely battered by opposition teams of very fit and regimented lower league players who would hammer us. BTW , Baxter couldn't wipe the arse of the forementioned.

 

[BushBlade]

Accomodating owen ?
One of only a few truly world class players england have had in the last couple of decades ?

Yes, I didn't mean 'putting up with him' I meant he was an automatic starter so we had to build around him.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Simply cant be done these days at this level ,would be like playing with 10 men. We all loved the days of Currie ,Worthington ,Hudson and Marsh etc ,but we would get absolutely battered by opposition teams of very fit and regimented lower league players who would hammer us. BTW , Baxter couldn't wipe the arse of the forementioned.

Suit yourself. My position for Baxter is 'No.10' or not at all.

You say it can't be done in L1 but I'd say Sharp with Baxter tucked in behind is much better than Sharp with Sammon up front.

I'd prefer to see Done given a run there but Baxter is a better option for me in Done's absence, or even Sharp's absence.

Baxter can create and he can score goals - fact.

 

[sitwell]

Baxter can't play as a team player and we concede goals - another fact

 

[Woodwardfan]

Baxter can't play as a team player and we concede goals - another fact

Sweeping statement which I believe is utter nonsense. Team selection is a balancing act and it's not just about not conceding goals, it's about winning games.

Too simple. It's like saying Brayford has reduced goals against -yes, when we've played four defensive midfielders at the same time.

To say when one midfield player plays we concede more goals is either a joke or just daft or maybe an obsession even.

 

[Dnblade]

If Baxter doesn't play then Sitters..who we going to turn to,to get us out of the shit at places like Bradford while playing deep,or starring in a more advanced role at Posh..or be instrumental in getting us back from 3-0 at Wigan while drifting in from the left to become the playmaker..what I'm trying to say is..our only other player who can pick decent pass is Coutts,who is out on the right,and none of Coutts,Bash,Hammond or Woolford carry much of a goal threat...I bet Billy and Doney are glad when Jose gets on the ball..they can actually make a run and no there is a good chance he will pick them out...As I've said before,he's not the most mobile,but creatively he's head and shoulders above everyone else,and carries a goal threat unlike the rest of the midfield...like someone said further down the thread...lets keep hold of him until we get someone better.

 

[I should coco]

Some people don't like Baxter for his off field exploits, well we're a football club first and foremost, not a fucking orchestra or a bunch of librarians.

Tee hee.

A funny snappy comment, except librarians and classical musicians don't get banned from the day job because of their extra mural activities.

It's not pompous morals about his 'exploits' that upsets me, but the fact that the drugs ban and then the recent punch up(?) caused him to miss games.

He is a liability on and off the pitch. What part of this don't you get?

After Tuesday I wouldn't even pay him in washers. We need professionals who give 100% to the cause, not passenger 'victims'.

Billy and Matt Done showed how it should be done. The fat kid with gloves on wandering around aimlessly showed how not to do it.

ISC

 

[Woodwardfan]

If Baxter doesn't play then Sitters..who we going to turn to,to get us out of the shit at places like Bradford while playing deep,or starring in a more advanced role at Posh..or be instrumental in getting us back from 3-0 at Wigan while drifting in from the left to become the playmaker..what I'm trying to say is..our only other player who can pick decent pass is Coutts,who is out on the right,and none of Coutts,Bash,Hammond or Woolford carry much of a goal threat...I bet Billy and Doney are glad when Jose gets on the ball..they can actually make a run and no there is a good chance he will pick them out...As I've said before,he's not the most mobile,but creatively he's head and shoulders above everyone else,and carries a goal threat unlike the rest of the midfield...like someone said further down the thread...lets keep hold of him until we get someone better.

I wonder which players will be the "chopping blocks" if we sign a centre half to replace Collins and an athletic midfield play-maker to push Baxter further down the queue.

Watch out McEveley they'll be back on your case

For some crazy reason it might be Done though.

 

[west_yorks_blade]

[QUOTE="I should coco, post: 911682, member: 15713"
.The fat kid with gloves on wandering around aimlessly showed how not to do it.

ISC[/QUOTE]

Except that he turned the game around second half when actually allowed (or took it on himself) to play in a position that suits him. Rather than being sent to Coventry on the left wing.

So He didn't just wander around, he grabbed the ball and made a series of incisive passes. Done and sharpe got on the end of them and we turned the game around. This is what he does better than anyone else in our squad.

Seems like you made your mind up about him some time ago and just see what you want to see when he's playing.

 

[Dkc]

I think we need Bergen to analyse his performance in a couple of games.

 

[I should coco]

Seems like you made your mind up about him some time ago and just see what you want to see when he's playing

Actually I've always had a soft spot for him and was pleased to see him in the team. The first 10 minutes with the gloves and the 'can't be arsed' air really pissed me off.

He has had chance after chance and not delivered consistently. Yes, he can be a wonderful footballer and can do stuff no-one else can but his attitude stinks.

Get rid, he's had enough chances.

ISC

 

[Dkc]

What the fuck's wrong with wearing gloves when it's cold? How can wearing gloves affect your performance?

I normally don't wear gloves, but if it's cold I do. Why should footballers be any different?

 

[I should coco]

What the fuck's wrong with wearing gloves when it's cold? How can wearing gloves affect your performance?

Nothing wrong per se, but for 150 years footballers have used the revolutionary technique of staying warm by running around a bit.

It was his demeanor and the gloves just summed up the 'I don't want to be here' impression. He owes us big style after the drugs ban, but he ambled around like someone out for a Sunday afternoon stroll.

If he can't be arsed to give 100% then he should do one. I understand all about his 'quality' but without the right attitude it's pretty much worthless.
He's had multiple chances and never seized them so IMHO it's time to move on.

I normally don't wear gloves, but if it's cold I do

Thanks for the fashion tip and I'll bear that in mind.

ISC

 

[Dkc]

Nothing wrong per se, but for 150 years footballers have used the revolutionary technique of staying warm by running around a bit.

ISC

Thanks for the tip pal. Next time it's cold I won't bother with winter clothes, I'll just run around a bit

 

[I should coco]

Thanks for the tip pal. Next time it's cold I won't bother with winter clothes, I'll just run around a bit

But don't expect to get £3k per week for it and there's the rub.

Baxter could play in a tutu for all I care if he put the work in, but he can't be arsed.

It finally dawned on me at Wigan that he will never make it as he just hasn't got the drive. We might as accept that and get rid.

ISC

 

[1danewhitehouse]

COG... Chris O'Grady?? On loan at Forest, fans dont appear to be overly impressed by him, slows the counter attacking style down that Freedman employs. But..the bits i saw of him, yes not particularly pacey but solid with his back to goal and looks to bring others into play holding it up and laying it off..which is better than what Sammon has been doing i guess. Ideally he looks suited to a 4411 where a quicker poacher type striker and attacking mids who burst forward feed off him around the box.

Yeah O Grady, I think he’d be a great foil for Sharp. I really wanted to see him partner Evans back in 11/12 and harboured hopes of it happening on Evans’ release (we were chasing COG at the time and got him on loan for a bit but then decided against Evans and couldn’t keep COG).


He’s not exceptionally pacey as his main strength is, as you say, holding the ball up and bringing others in to play but he’s still quicker than most players of that ilk (particularly at this level- Higdon, Porter, Hanson, S. Davies etc.)

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Sitwell.

I've done the stats:

Total games 1.48 per game.

When Baxter started 1.36 per game.

As Baxter is top of the assists and second top goalscorer, maybe the tolerance is allowable, but yes you were right Sitwell - nowhere near to the degree you said but I realise it was for effect.

We all know Baxter has had a difficult personal time and a stop start season. It helps nobody.

Clough played him up front on his own. Adkins has played him in the central two in 4-4-2 and out wide.

Play the lad as a No.10 or not at all.

Play him there and he will produce. I have no doubts whatsoever, but I have serious doubts whether he deserves another chance.

What do they say "Gifted players are allowed more transgressions than ordinary players".

They also say "one bad apple can sour a whole basket".

“Play him there and he will produce”- But will he produce enough of the time to justify sacrificing a striker? Yes he brings goals (compared to the other midfielders) but does he bring more than playing with 2 strikers does?




“"Gifted players are allowed more transgressions than ordinary players".

They also say "one bad apple can sour a whole basket". “



They also say “hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard”.



For me, our best formula at the moment is the one that won NA Manager of the month. Baxter’s place should be on the bench and coming in for the odd game when we need to freshen it up like on Tuesday after Saturday’s efforts. If he does enough in those opportunities, we could re-consider.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Accomodating owen ?
One of only a few truly world class players england have had in the last couple of decades ?

I took it that the point was, you would want to play 3 in midfield to solve the Lampard/Gerrard dilemma but because Owen wasn’t suited to playing up top on his own, it wouldn’t work as he needed Heskey as a foil.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

If Baxter doesn't play then Sitters..who we going to turn to,to get us out of the shit at places like Bradford while playing deep,or starring in a more advanced role at Posh..or be instrumental in getting us back from 3-0 at Wigan while drifting in from the left to become the playmaker..what I'm trying to say is..our only other player who can pick decent pass is Coutts,who is out on the right,and none of Coutts,Bash,Hammond or Woolford carry much of a goal threat...I bet Billy and Doney are glad when Jose gets on the ball..they can actually make a run and no there is a good chance he will pick them out...As I've said before,he's not the most mobile,but creatively he's head and shoulders above everyone else,and carries a goal threat unlike the rest of the midfield...like someone said further down the thread...lets keep hold of him until we get someone better.

The same argument could be made for Adams. But neither are trustworthy or responsible when it comes to doing the job required for the team (though hopefully with Adams that will come with time- less likely with Baxter with the experience he now has). Both have that ability but not the reliability so for me, the best place for them is then bench and bring them on if/when we need to find a goal.

 

[lard]

I wouldn't have him in the starting 11 at the moment and if we did it should be as a second striker as he can't be trusted defensively.

However we'd be stupid to get rid of him entirely given his age and the goals/assists he's contributed this season. At the very least he's good to have as an option.