baxter MOM

[Darthblade]

Paid for how?

By selling McCabes wife and sons into slavery and using the money form the Murphy & Maguire sale plus the revenue from the Cup runs last year, plus the substantial gate revenue enjoyed each home game plus some of the "game changing investment" promised .......
UTB & FTP

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

We might have them in house - I don't see them in training but I will give you a few options.

Basham to CH - whilst an advocate of him playing in midfield last season in a 5, he seems a bit out of sorts in a 4 AND playing with Baxter.
Basham to CM with Coutts at the side of him. Coutts played well last season in midfield with Basham and Doyle. If Adkins wants to play 4, then it is an option.
McGahey to CH? probably not a serious option but he looked like a brick shit house on Saturday and must have worked with Morgan as his timing for headers was very good. When he had to he kicked it row Z.

Basham and Edgar at CH - CM is then a problem x 2 - perhaps Hammond is coming at some time on loan - does anyone really know.

James Wallace is the solution if he stays fit . again a long standing joke.

What I am against is Baxter and Scoogs in any combination what so ever - been done to death - far too light weight.

As for your comment of "paid for how" - for me it is still very simple - we either solve the problem or we continue to stay in this division and tweak what Adkins is presently doing as he gives everyone a chance "searching" for a workable formula and slip down the league as we did last season and never look like challenging for the top 2. I presume you went on Saturday - once AGAIN we were out played in midfield (for the umpteenth time this season).

So we possibly go for loans - and yes I am the first to say it's someone else's money and we are losing £5m per year - but if we don't solve midfield and tighten up in defence then we are stuffed once again, which leads on to losing another £5m next season. I am led to believe teams make an extra £4m being a division up.

So there you have it and I now throw a similar question to you what would you do - I banged on last season about CD from last September and I am now banging on about CD and CM (because we now play 4). It is my opinion what got us here in this division and why we are STILL in this division and why we may STILL be in this division next season. It's the basics that we continue not to resolve and it pains me to think people still think Collins/Baxter/Scoogal can be part of the solution. I disagree vehemently with this continued soft option we have in CM and CD - it isn't working - the proof is watching the team, week in, week out.

Just to add Doyle into the mixture - he WAS part of the problem why we came down and to think we are missing someone like Doyle is a joke. Yes we need a leader, but we need someone who can actually be positive, strong and is looking (FIRST) in a forward motion.

Anyway, sorry it was a bit of a rant, but it really does pain me to watch poxy, small, low budget clubs continually and completely out play us, out pass us, out run us the way that Rochdale did. This is not a complaint against any other club - it is a moan that we do not seem capable of solving the problems we have. If Adkins has a plan B, then fine - I don't see it developing one iota - perhaps you and others do - it looks and sounds as though Adkins has his bloody fingers crossed during each game, hoping it will all come together. Meanwhile, clubs keep "doing" us one way or another.

UTB

Good post Fulwood and sums up were we are and what we have to do . My view is that Adkins knows exactly what is required to make the differance between a top two team or one that can finish anywhere between 3rd and 10th .

My gut feeling is there is no finance available, or the right installment amount has not landed from the Murphy deal into the transfer kitty . Thats why we have come to a standstill in the transfer and loan market . This will land around December and the kitty , will be topped up , also with the sale of another player in the JTW. This will then allow us to resolve transfer fees , wages , contracts , and get the players who will fit . ( not round pegs in square holes as we say ) .

High risk strategy but i dont think the club or Adkins have a alternative option . In this situation some managers of Adkins calibre would walk , but i think he sees it as a challenge to build a dynasty like he did at Southampton , who were very similar to us . We , as fans have no alternative but to trust and be patient .

UTB

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Good post Fulwood and sums up were we are and what we have to do . My view is that Adkins knows exactly what is required to make the differance between a top two team or one that can finish anywhere between 3rd and 10th .

My gut feeling is there is no finance available, or the right installment amount has not landed from the Murphy deal into the transfer kitty . Thats why we have come to a standstill in the transfer and loan market . This will land around December and the kitty , will be topped up , also with the sale of another player in the JTW. This will then allow us to resolve transfer fees , wages , contracts , and get the players who will fit . ( not round pegs in square holes as we say ) .

High risk strategy but i dont think the club or Adkins have a alternative option . In this situation some managers of Adkins calibre would walk , but i think he sees it as a challenge to build a dynasty like he did at Southampton , who were very similar to us . We , as fans have no alternative but to trust and be patient .

UTB

Hmmm.....patience............

Go and watch Rochdale's second goal. People on here have stuffed Howard, but the real reason is Baxter.

Rochdales midfield player "pulls" Mcgahey out of the back 4, leaving a hole. Basham is in front of the back 4, but Baxter is trotting back in no mans land, instead of picking up the lad with the ball.

He then plays a nice ball in the space behind Mcgahey - Collins tries to cover, Howard (rightly for me) stays put as he expects Collins to make it.
He doesn't and Howard paries from 3 yards (that's all he could do).

Baxter didn't track back, creating the problem.

It is this type of midfield issue we have to resolve.

Fantastic ball for Che's first, but Baxter leaves massive holes.

Patience is fine, but we could be very mid table by Xmas if we are not careful and chasing shadows like last season - never quite getting there.

UTB

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Hmmm.....patience............

Go and watch Rochdale's second goal. People on here have stuffed Howard, but the real reason is Baxter.

Rochdales midfield player "pulls" Mcgahey out of the back 4, leaving a hole. Basham is in front of the back 4, but Baxter is trotting back in no mans land, instead of picking up the lad with the ball.

He then plays a nice ball in the space behind Mcgahey - Collins tries to cover, Howard (rightly for me) stays put as he expects Collins to make it.
He doesn't and Howard paries from 3 yards (that's all he could do).

Baxter didn't track back, creating the problem.

It is this type of midfield issue we have to resolve.

Fantastic ball for Che's first, but Baxter leaves massive holes.

Patience is fine, but we could be very mid table by Xmas if we are not careful and chasing shadows like last season - never quite getting there.

UTB

Again agree . In Adkins team selections , i dont think there is method in his madness . Although a good manager , respected , tactician , positive , psychological management , i think to some extent he is winging it until the JTW , when hopefully we can bring the players in to balance us in CM , and hope with the league being much of a muchness , we are still in shouting distance . It has worked up to press , so there is no reason it cannot work until January . A bit radical , but i cannot think of no other explanation.

In the meantime we will be inconsistent and get over run by so called ' lesser teams " but still in the mix.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

Hmmm.....patience............

Go and watch Rochdale's second goal. People on here have stuffed Howard, but the real reason is Baxter.

Rochdales midfield player "pulls" Mcgahey out of the back 4, leaving a hole. Basham is in front of the back 4, but Baxter is trotting back in no mans land, instead of picking up the lad with the ball.

He then plays a nice ball in the space behind Mcgahey - Collins tries to cover, Howard (rightly for me) stays put as he expects Collins to make it.
He doesn't and Howard paries from 3 yards (that's all he could do).

Baxter didn't track back, creating the problem.

It is this type of midfield issue we have to resolve.

Fantastic ball for Che's first, but Baxter leaves massive holes.

Patience is fine, but we could be very mid table by Xmas if we are not careful and chasing shadows like last season - never quite getting there.

UTB

Totally agree, Baxter is a creator not a defender.

Play him deep and suffer the consequences.

Play him upfield and reap the rewards.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Based purely on Saturdays performance my midfield 3 would be.

------Defence------
------Basham------
Reed-------Baxter

I think with Done and Adams on the wing they don't really provide anything defensively so playing with Scougs and Baxter in midfield, with no Basham either is leaving the backline exposed massively.

Or a midfield with Basham and Reed deep and Baxter the playmaker slightly forward of them in a "No.10" role.

With Sharp up front and Done and Adams flanking him all adds up to excitement.

Done and Adams can drop deeper and are capable of doing so. Equally the full backs can push up regularly and support an irresistable attack. Baxter would pull all the strings in that scenario.

 

[RMBlade]

Or a midfield with Basham and Reed deep and Baxter the playmaker slightly forward of them in a "No.10" role.

With Sharp up front and Done and Adams flanking him all adds up to excitement.

Done and Adams can drop deeper and are capable of doing so. Equally the full backs can push up regularly and support an irresistable attack. Baxter would pull all the strings in that scenario.

I would agree with you if we had a half decent defense. I think they need Basham to be really deep just in front of the CH's.

I also think especially Adams is very poor at tracking back, I really recall seeing Done come back much either Saturday, but to be honest just leave them up top to do damage.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

Totally agree, Baxter is a creator not a defender.

Play him deep and suffer the consequences.

Play him upfield and reap the rewards.

While I agree about Baxter being a creator not a defender (albeit a creator who's much more aggressive these days without the ball when having to try to win it back than he used to be), I don't agree with the other part of your post tbh.

IMO, Baxter's much more effective playing deeper in the "quarterback" role, where he can best make use of his vision (as in Saturday's first goal), than he is in the no.10 position further forward. The proviso being he needs an effective defensive midfielder alongside him there (which itself means 433 is a better option with Baxter in the line up than 442).

On Saturday, I thought things fell apart in the second half when Baxter was pushed further forward to replace Scougs as no.10 (although things had already started to unravel in midfield after Scougs got his nasty bang on the head & then understandably disappeared for the rest of the first half). Baxter just doesn't have Scougs's energy & not only did he rarely get on the ball, he didn't do any effective closing down either. Further back, Basham was anonymous & Coutts faded badly. I suppose though, had Basham been thrust into the more advanced role (which he's more suited to IMO) it would have left the non-defensive Baxter & the rapidly tiring Coutts as meagre protection for the back four.

 

[Woodwardfan]

While I agree about Baxter being a creator not a defender (albeit a creator who's much more aggressive these days without the ball when having to try to win it back than he used to be), I don't agree with the other part of your post tbh.

IMO, Baxter's much more effective playing deeper in the "quarterback" role, where he can best make use of his vision (as in Saturday's first goal), than he is in the no.10 position further forward. The proviso being he needs an effective defensive midfielder alongside him there (which itself means 433 is a better option with Baxter in the line up than 442).

On Saturday, I thought things fell apart in the second half when Baxter was pushed further forward to replace Scougs as no.10 (although things had already started to unravel in midfield after Scougs got his nasty bang on the head & then understandably disappeared for the rest of the first half). Baxter just doesn't have Scougs's energy & not only did he rarely get on the ball, he didn't do any effective closing down either. Further back, Basham was anonymous & Coutts faded badly. I suppose though, had Basham been thrust into the more advanced role (which he's more suited to IMO) it would have left the non-defensive Baxter & the rapidly tiring Coutts as meagre protection for the back four.

We all have our opinions and I understand where you are coming from. I think I wrote elsewhere that pre-game I thought the team selection of Scougall, Baxter and Coutts in midfield was suicidal and nothing I saw changed my mind, I thought they were off the pace and overwhelmed and bullied all afternoon. IMO Basham added a little bit of presence second half but was anonymous as well.

For our first goal, that is precisely the situation I'd like to see present itself regularly to Baxter as he is able to exploit it. My perspective would include the position he was in when he played the ball as "No.10" territory, i.e. roving role in between lines looking to play a ball to play through the back line to create a goalscoring opportunity. Scougall had a couple of such opportunities as did somebody else and each attempt raced out of play for a goal kick.


Since the weekend it has occurred to me that the new pitch plays fast because there seems to be a common tendency to over-hit passes. I suspect Adkins is demanding more "zip" in the passing but through balls need the right weight and players can either do it or they can't; the vast majority can't. Baxter can and that's why I always support him. Yes he is infuriating with his casual demeanour, but he can provide assists in situations others can't and that's worth a lot.


Folk on here seem to think Baxter has improved under Adkins and particularly since his sending-off. Fair "do's" if that helps them to be more patient with him, because I think he could be Player of the Season in a promotion year, which by nature has to include play-makers who can provide assists for the goalscorers to put them away. I thought all his corners were excellent last Saturday too and wouldn't that be novel if we started looking dangerous from set-pieces.

For their second goal, that's precisely the situation I'd keep Baxter away from, dependent on him ( and Basham and Coutts!!) protecting the back 4.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Totally agree, Baxter is a creator not a defender.

Play him deep and suffer the consequences.

Play him upfield and reap the rewards.

Indeed - my objection to Baxter is where Adkins appears to want to play him - deep.
If he is to play then take away the majority of defensive duties. accept at lets say corner/freekicks.

Don't really have a favoured formation, but perhaps your original reference to Doyle, is that we put Basham in front of the back 4 - giving a defensive 6 (including GK) and let the front 5 create havoc.

Having Billy, Che and Done with a.n other and Baxter in forward positions it could work.

Emphasis on Freeman/Wallace/Harris to get forward, knowing that Bash can cover across.

Adkins has to come up with something as we are getting destroyed in midfield.

UTB

 

[Fulwood Blade]

IMO, Baxter's much more effective playing deeper in the "quarterback" role, where he can best make use of his vision (as in Saturday's first goal.

Whilst I agree about the cracking ball he playes - look at Rochdales 2nd goal - Baxter fault at not tracking or being in a decent CM position.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

Indeed - my objection to Baxter is where Adkins appears to want to play him - deep.
If he is to play then take away the majority of defensive duties. accept at lets say corner/freekicks.

Don't really have a favoured formation, but perhaps your original reference to Doyle, is that we put Basham in front of the back 4 - giving a defensive 6 (including GK) and let the front 5 create havoc.

Having Billy, Che and Done with a.n other and Baxter in forward positions it could work.

Emphasis on Freeman/Wallace/Harris to get forward, knowing that Bash can cover across.

Adkins has to come up with something as we are getting destroyed in midfield.

UTB

Or as I posted further above:

Or a midfield with Basham and Reed deep and Baxter the playmaker slightly forward of them in a "No.10" role.

With Sharp up front and Done and Adams flanking him all adds up to excitement.

Done and Adams can drop deeper and are capable of doing so. Equally the full backs can push up regularly and support an irresistable attack. Baxter would pull all the strings in that scenario.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

So there you have it and I now throw a similar question to you what would you do

I'd do what we are doing - that doesn't mean it's good, it just means it's the best of a bad set of choices, given that we have a finite budget (and an infinite squad ).

For now, for me the worst/weakest aspect of the team is probably defensive midfield, and on occasions it really is very bad, but the task in hand is to manage this with the resources currently available.

It's been pretty clear from the outset that the plan is to outscore the opposition.

I think Adkins' framework includes:

• invest available money in goalscoring
• get the team well organised in order to defend - this has probably worked best at Swindon and (league leaders at the time) Burton
• work on set pieces - improve players collectively
• improve players individually
• bring outcast players back into the fold, and thereby have greater reserves to draw on
  
• assess how the squad play under his management before deciding on where to allocate limited financial resources
• assess the impact of players returning from injury

I agree that 2CHs and 2 CMs would be great and almost guarantee us promotion but I'd estimate the cost to be at least 4 x £1.5m, possibly more. This is unrealistic.

As posted elsewhere the Murphy money is a significant issue; there are questions that need answering about why it hasn't been spent. And by questions need answering I mean just that, not: It's bloody obvious and the Board are crap.

Everything I see from Adkins makes me think he really knows what he's doing - and if he can't get us out of this division then we could be here for a very very long time.

He knows the big picture inside the club (and inside the League) and, for me basically, his experience, skill and judgement are dictating who plays and how they play. It'd have to be an extremely strong argument to make me think Adkins isn't doing the best for us long term, I haven't seen that argument yet.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

Whilst I agree about the cracking ball he playes - look at Rochdales 2nd goal - Baxter fault at not tracking or being in a decent CM position.

UTB

But Baxter was playing just off Billy, advanced in a no.10 role, at that stage.

Just looked at the goal again, & can't see how Baxter could be seen as having any blame in it at all.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

If I've been paying attention and if I've managed to C+P the link properly this was Bergen Blade's post on the goal. Coutts and even Done share the blame. Basically we lost our shape, players were pulled out of position and they got through us.

http://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/united-3-rochdale-2-report.42429/page-3#post-848954

 

[Cyprus Blade]

But Baxter was playing just off Billy, advanced in a no.10 role, at that stage.

Just looked at the goal again, & can't see how Baxter could be seen as having any blame in it at all.

I agree with that - Baxter is no great defender but that goal wasn't down to him.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I agree with that - Baxter is no great defender but that goal wasn't down to him.

Coutts in a fog as usual and substituted by Reed within a minute too. Ryce had been getting ready but plans were changed quickly.

 

[Darthblade]

I'd do what we are doing - that doesn't mean it's good, it just means it's the best of a bad set of choices, given that we have a finite budget (and an infinite squad ).

For now, for me the worst/weakest aspect of the team is probably defensive midfield, and on occasions it really is very bad, but the task in hand is to manage this with the resources currently available.

It's been pretty clear from the outset that the plan is to outscore the opposition.

I think Adkins' framework includes:

• invest available money in goalscoring
• get the team well organised in order to defend - this has probably worked best at Swindon and (league leaders at the time) Burton
• work on set pieces - improve players collectively
• improve players individually
• bring outcast players back into the fold, and thereby have greater reserves to draw on
  
• assess how the squad play under his management before deciding on where to allocate limited financial resources
• assess the impact of players returning from injury

I agree that 2CHs and 2 CMs would be great and almost guarantee us promotion but I'd estimate the cost to be at least 4 x £1.5m, possibly more. This is unrealistic.

As posted elsewhere the Murphy money is a significant issue; there are questions that need answering about why it hasn't been spent. And by questions need answering I mean just that, not: It's bloody obvious and the Board are crap.

Everything I see from Adkins makes me think he really knows what he's doing - and if he can't get us out of this division then we could be here for a very very long time.

He knows the big picture inside the club (and inside the League) and, for me basically, his experience, skill and judgement are dictating who plays and how they play. It'd have to be an extremely strong argument to make me think Adkins isn't doing the best for us long term, I haven't seen that argument yet.

I take your point that 2 x CH and 2 x CM would almost guarantee us promotion, however, I don't agree that you would need to spend £6m for that shopping list.

How many of the players who are better ( more effective in this Division ) than our CH's and CM's would cost £1.5m ? I suspect none; in fact there are a lot of defenders and midfield players in this Division who are more effective at this level, who would probably not even break through the £250,000 barrier.

Getting out of this agricultural Division is what matters this season and at the moment we're not going to succeed.
UTB & FTP