Attendance question

[Darren]

In such studies do those being prayed for know what's being done on their behalf?

There's a wiki article. the beef is this:

Meta-studies of the literature in the field have been performed showing evidence only for no effect or a potentially small effect. For instance, a 2006 meta analysis on 14 studies concluded that there is "no discernable effect" while a 2007 systemic review of intercessory prayer reported inconclusive results, noting that 7 of 17 studies had "small, but significant, effect sizes" but the review noted that the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings.[2][3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

 

[Gavlar]

If you would disobey an order given by God because it conflicts with what you consider to be morally right, then it shows that the existence of God is not necessary for us to have a concept of good and evil and you are accepting that standards of morality are prior to and independent of God.

And the Bible isn't vague about slavery. It accepts it as a natural and inevitable part of human existence. That was the attitude of virtually everyone until the 18th century when the advance of technology meant that forcing other people to work for them was not a necessary condition of some people having a life of leisure.

Does that not give you pause for thought that the Bible may not be the word of God and may have been written by human beings whose morality and intelligence was on the average level for the time?

Thanks for your thoughts Darren. Im amazed we've covered so much ground subject on a football fans forum and have been discussing it for a week almost...... maybe we should get out more

Ok, here's some thoughts. I would disobey the order as I wouldnt believe God was giving it, it conflicts with what I believe to be morally true of God and his character and how Jesus behaves in the Bible. That has everything to do with God and his morality, I fear you're twisting my words here.

Re slavery, I meant vague as in it's support or non-support of it not that it doesnt mention it as happening. Some folks have used the Bible as an argument for allowing slavery in the past (incorrectly in my opinion).

I admit the understanding of how frail human beings wrote the Bible and it became infallible is something I've pondered.

Going back to one of your previous points, you said something like you would believe in God if a booming voice said the channel would freeze at a particular time or something like that?

I've heard similar arguments to this and I dont buy it. Somebody mentioned dynamo on here earlier, and I think that would result in us thinking God was like dynamo. ie able to do amazing tricks that impress us, able to entertain us even, but not good for anything else. God doesnt call us to entertainment, he calls us to know him and to be known by him. Its all about relationship, and the more I get older (getting nostalgic here!) the more I realise that life's about relationship, our relationship with God and with others*. Quite simple really and yet I miss it often myself.

*And by the way if im ever in Sheffield in the near future (in live in the south west atm) and you would be able to lower yourself to being seen with a religious freak like me (my halo glows so its obvious!). I like to buy you a drink and watch us smash the opposition together at BDTBL

 

[Gavlar]

the worrying thing for me is how christians are now using social media and snazzy videos to project their views, like the apologist in the taxi , Ill tell you how does God allow suffering , then doesnt say , smoke and mirrors about we dont really exist , its the big picture, a little suffering heigthens the joy bollocks , suffering exists because of religion, wars are fought solely on differing faiths, radical christians and muslims kill and maim to defend their beliefs, threaten death to non believers, muslims do it most now but christians have been at it from the reformation, and since they went round conquering and forcing belief on people.
All religion is vague ,creationalism , the new science , is based on the earth only being 7/8000 years old at best, again not really supportable, life evolves from micro organisms, its really that simple we exist due to planets spinning and creating a set of circumstances where we have evolved, previous inhabitants havent survived, we might go the same way as the dinosaurs, religion offers a false lifeline to the gullable.

Well slit my wrists and call me Dave Jones! I'd better jack my Faith in God in now then!

Hi bladetoolong, im not sure ive posted much to you before, so pleased to make your acquaintance.

I find your first statement intriguing. Its worrying that christians are now using social media snazzy videos etc.
How could this possibly worry you? Surely its either true or false regardless of what medium its portrayed on?

totally agree that religion has caused suffering, although we seem to be able to cause suffering to each other for a multitude of other reasons rather than religion aswell. ie jealously, poverty, lust, greed, power, you name it.

Ive got no problem with evolution by the way, but one thing that perplexes me about it is how we are meant to have come from simple beginnings. When you look at a single cell it really isnt simple at all.
And I have been even in the last week defending evolution and an older earth to Christians.

As for religion offering a false lifeline, i agree, i hate religion. Its relationship that interests me, relationship
with God and with others in all its unpredictability and struggle.

 

[Darren]

Thanks for your thoughts Darren. Im amazed we've covered so much ground subject on a football fans forum and have been discussing it for a week almost...... maybe we should get out more

Ok, here's some thoughts. I would disobey the order as I wouldnt believe God was giving it, it conflicts with what I believe to be morally true of God and his character and how Jesus behaves in the Bible. That has everything to do with God and his morality, I fear you're twisting my words here.

Re slavery, I meant vague as in it's support or non-support of it not that it doesnt mention it as happening. Some folks have used the Bible as an argument for allowing slavery in the past (incorrectly in my opinion).

I admit the understanding of how frail human beings wrote the Bible and it became infallible is something I've pondered.

Going back to one of your previous points, you said something like you would believe in God if a booming voice said the channel would freeze at a particular time or something like that?

I've heard similar arguments to this and I dont buy it. Somebody mentioned dynamo on here earlier, and I think that would result in us thinking God was like dynamo. ie able to do amazing tricks that impress us, able to entertain us even, but not good for anything else. God doesnt call us to entertainment, he calls us to know him and to be known by him. Its all about relationship, and the more I get older (getting nostalgic here!) the more I realise that life's about relationship, our relationship with God and with others*. Quite simple really and yet I miss it often myself.

*And by the way if im ever in Sheffield in the near future (in live in the south west atm) and you would be able to lower yourself to being seen with a religious freak like me (my halo glows so its obvious!). I like to buy you a drink and watch us smash the opposition together at BDTBL

You're missing my point about morality. One of your earlier posts stated that we couldn't have a sense of good and evil without God. You have now stated that if you got an order from God (lets assume for the moment that this is a genuine order from God) that conflicted with your sense of morality, you would disobey it.

That must mean that you do not derive your sense of morality from God as you do not consider everything God might say (and of course he could give orders that you consider obnoxious because he is omnipotent) to be moral. If you don't derive your sense of morality from God that means that God is not necessary for you to have a sense of right and wrong as your sense of right of wrong is independent of what God might conceivably say.

On slavery, the Bible says plenty about it both in the Old and New Testaments. Mainly it says slaves should obey their masters and masters should be kind to their slaves. At no point does it suggest that slavery is wrong per se. Those who have argued that the Bible gives divine authority to slavery have a very good argument in my view (if you assume the Bible is the Word of God).

I am afraid that once again, you assume what you are trying to prove: you say God calls us to a relationship with him. That assumes God exists. As I have said, to my mind the evidence that a Christian God does not exist is overwhleming, so any talk of a relationship with him is otiose.

I wouldn't mind having a drink with you, but don't think you can convert me I am afraid your literal type of Christianity is completely unconvincing to me, though the more liberal metaphorical interpretation might have a chance....

 

[Gavlar]

I'd suggest the docs got it wrong the first time
Or the tumour moved as part of its growth pattern
I'd say the intervention of a benevolent, interventionalist deity to be well below 100 or so other possibilities, and ranking as close to 0 probability to make it worth dismissing

Thanks sellyoak for your thoughts.

Fair enough but you have no evidence of any the belief they got it wrong, only faith. You also seem to have very little faith in trained medical professionals who make decisions based on their long training/qualifications etc Science and reason, unless things have changed in the nhs.

ps I threw out an offer of a pint to darren if the planets allign enough one day and we happen to meet at a game (and he doesnt run in the opposite direction). The same offer goes for you mate, hold me to it, if I dont follow through I will be slapped forthwith by the thought police God has in operation for me so Im bound to stick to it

all the best
gavlar

 

[blade too long]

I believe its possible to have divinity, but in ones self, deity is for people who need guidance, ie unable to live without thinking they need a omnipresent being. Theres 8 billion people on earth right now in 100 years they project nearly 15 billion, that means in 500 years , I read they worked out there will be a million billion souls passed, imagine the queues at macdonalds in heaven

 

[Selly]

I have the utmost respect for most trained medical professionals.

But they aren't infallible.

I've been doing my job for 13 years, with 4 years of uni before that and I make mistakes. It would be remiss of us to believe all the docs are always right and do not make mistakes.

And the examples you quote are in the minority. In the cast majority of cases people are either cured by conventional medicine, or die in spite of it. In face in scientific terms the low number of miraculous recoveries versus other recoveries/deaths would actually lead credence to a theory that prayer makes not statistical difference. As has been pointed out you would need to ensure that the subject didn't know they were the subject of prayer as well.

 

[Northyorksblade]

Well I wouldn't mind a doctor who could cure the bursitis in my hip. Failing that, if someone would say a few prayers for me........

 

[blade too long]

most christian "miracles" are the one in a million where people recover , which happens throughout the animal kingdom ,defying the odds , but they quickly brush over the millions who die of cancer , if God was all powerful why did he think up that little problem, some other form of punishment , I always remember Hoddles comment about kids with spina bifida having done something bad in a previous life, talk about sick , if Christianity even began to entertain that train of thought they are the devil incarnate themselves

 

[JohnDenver]

imagine the queues at macdonalds in heaven

Is that all we've got to look forward to after a lifetime of virtue? A restaurant whose best feature is the crapper?

I'm off to covet my neighbour's ox for a bit.

 

[blade too long]

of course theres a maccy d in heaven , lots of fatted calves to use up

 

[Gavlar]

A very good point BTL.
Anyone who takes the bible literally really needs to see a shrink.
You have to take it in context and take into account the "Chinese whisper" element. There are even basic geographical errors in the bible. You would think God would at least know his way around, or at the very least get a Sat Nav.

I'd be interested to in the basic geographical errors you are referring to mad mick?

totally agree about context.

 

[Gavlar]

most christian "miracles" are the one in a million where people recover , which happens throughout the animal kingdom ,defying the odds , but they quickly brush over the millions who die of cancer , if God was all powerful why did he think up that little problem, some other form of punishment , I always remember Hoddles comment about kids with spina bifida having done something bad in a previous life, talk about sick , if Christianity even began to entertain that train of thought they are the devil incarnate themselves

Hi blade too long,

I'm not brushing over anything to do with people dying of cancer, my grandad died of it. I dont know what you mean by God thought up that problem? Are you saying cancer is Gods idea?

The whole issue of healing and miracles is a mystery to me, I dont understand why God appears to heal some
people and others, but Ive seen and heard enough evidence to believe he does heal, and I trust he knows what he's doing when he doesnt.

Hoddle was going on about reincarnation, not something us Bible bashers agree with.

 

[Gavlar]

Well I wouldn't mind a doctor who could cure the bursitis in my hip. Failing that, if someone would say a few prayers for me........

Hi northyorksblade I will pray for you if youre serious? Im not sure what bursitis is, but it doesnt sound pleasant?

Even if youre not serious (about the prayer not the condition) I can still pray for you and not let on

all the best
gavlar

 

[Gavlar]

I believe its possible to have divinity, but in ones self, deity is for people who need guidance, ie unable to live without thinking they need a omnipresent being. Theres 8 billion people on earth right now in 100 years they project nearly 15 billion, that means in 500 years , I read they worked out there will be a million billion souls passed, imagine the queues at macdonalds in heaven

Hi blade too long

divinity in ones self? Are you saying we can live as ourselves are gods?

as for macdonalds ive got a deal with the almighty and he's saving me a mcflurry for the day i make i to the pearly gates I just hope i can fit through the "sinners door"

 

[Selly]

Hi blade too long,

I'm not brushing over anything to do with people dying of cancer, my grandad died of it. I dont know what you mean by God thought up that problem? Are you saying cancer is Gods idea?

He is the creator of the Universe.

By definition that makes everything his idea.

 

[Darren]

He is the creator of the Universe.

By definition that makes everything his idea.

Indeed. If God created the Universe and everything in it, it must follow that he must take blame for the bad things as well as credit for the good things.

 

[Gavlar]

You're missing my point about morality. One of your earlier posts stated that we couldn't have a sense of good and evil without God. You have now stated that if you got an order from God (lets assume for the moment that this is a genuine order from God) that conflicted with your sense of morality, you would disobey it.

That must mean that you do not derive your sense of morality from God as you do not consider everything God might say (and of course he could give orders that you consider obnoxious because he is omnipotent) to be moral. If you don't derive your sense of morality from God that means that God is not necessary for you to have a sense of right and wrong as your sense of right of wrong is independent of what God might conceivably say.

On slavery, the Bible says plenty about it both in the Old and New Testaments. Mainly it says slaves should obey their masters and masters should be kind to their slaves. At no point does it suggest that slavery is wrong per se. Those who have argued that the Bible gives divine authority to slavery have a very good argument in my view (if you assume the Bible is the Word of God).

I am afraid that once again, you assume what you are trying to prove: you say God calls us to a relationship with him. That assumes God exists. As I have said, to my mind the evidence that a Christian God does not exist is overwhleming, so any talk of a relationship with him is otiose.

I wouldn't mind having a drink with you, but don't think you can convert me I am afraid your literal type of Christianity is completely unconvincing to me, though the more liberal metaphorical interpretation might have a chance....

Hi darren

cheers for reply.

sorry for avoiding the challenge, but its hard to take it seriously. Youre asking me to assume that God behaves like someone else, and if he did then I would get my morality from somewhere else. Its a totally bizarre argument. If you want me to agree that in that circumstance I would get my m0rality from somewhere else then yes I would but it doesnt explain anything as its based on a false premise.

Its interesting that you mention slavery, our Vicar talked briefly about that subject this evening. If you read the Bible as a whole which not many folks are good at doing (including me). You can see Gods commands and character of love and how Jesus treats people far outweigh the argument for slavery that may appear in the Bible.

I'm a bit frustrated by this continual circular argument thing, of course im coming from the position of assuming God exists! just like youre coming from the position of assuming he doesnt. neither of us are unbiased can we just accept that and engage with the points rather than keep mentioning it?

As for meeting up for a drink, superb stuff! I will agree to not try to convert you if you agree to the same terms
But to my knowledge ive never converted anyone, im the James Beatie of last season so i think youre safe!

and finally i wouldnt be so sure that im a literalist Christian, I class myself as open minded. Esp about stuff like creation and evolution, but I think it would be a pointless book for peple to live by if nothing in it was literal. I believe in the power of God to heal people, ive seen it in my own life, there's nothing metaphorical about that.

all the best,
gavlar

 

[Darren]

Hi darren

cheers for reply.

sorry for avoiding the challenge, but its hard to take it seriously. Youre asking me to assume that God behaves like someone else, and if he did then I would get my morality from somewhere else. Its a totally bizarre argument. If you want me to agree that in that circumstance I would get my m0rality from somewhere else then yes I would but it doesnt explain anything as its based on a false premise.

Its interesting that you mention slavery, our Vicar talked briefly about that subject this evening. If you read the Bible as a whole which not many folks are good at doing (including me). You can see Gods commands and character of love and how Jesus treats people far outweigh the argument for slavery that may appear in the Bible.

I'm a bit frustrated by this continual circular argument thing, of course im coming from the position of assuming God exists! just like youre coming from the position of assuming he doesnt. neither of us are unbiased can we just accept that and engage with the points rather than keep mentioning it?

As for meeting up for a drink, superb stuff! I will agree to not try to convert you if you agree to the same terms
But to my knowledge ive never converted anyone, im the James Beatie of last season so i think youre safe!

and finally i wouldnt be so sure that im a literalist Christian, I class myself as open minded. Esp about stuff like creation and evolution, but I think it would be a pointless book for peple to live by if nothing in it was literal. I believe in the power of God to heal people, ive seen it in my own life, there's nothing metaphorical about that.

all the best,
gavlar

I think you are misunderstanding the morality point. Your unspoken assumption is that God must behave in a way that is consonant with what you consider to be moral. In that case God is not omnipotent (in which case it means God as traditionally defined by Christianity does not exist) and it means that your morality is defined independently of God, as you hold God to your own moral standards.

This problem is known as the Euthyphro Dilemma and has a history going back to Plato. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
You can see various Christian responses to it. None of them, to my mind, are convincing.

Jesus does indeed preach a gospel of love, but to his mind (and the mind of everyone else in the Bible) that is not inconsistent with slavery. No doubt Jesus thought Masters and slaves should love each other, but he does not for one moment suggest that the Master-slave relationship should not exist. If he did think that relationship was instrisically evil (as we all do now) he would have said so. The fact that he didn't says a lot.

With all due respect, I am trying to examine the evidence for the existence or non-existence of God, none of my arguments assume God doesn't exist. I conclude on the basis of the evidence that it is very likely that he doesn't exist. When you support your arguments by talking about one's relationship with God, that assumes God exists.

I have lived to the grand old age of 46 years and never seen or experienced anything that gives the slightest evidential basis for there being an interventionist God. All the evidence comes at second or third hand and is shaky to say the least. And quite honestly, the efforts to explain away thinks like Aberfan, cancer etc as being consistent with the existence of a loving omnipotent God are about as convincing as my magical underpants having the power to effect United results!

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

I class myself as open minded. Esp about stuff like creation and evolution

There's no need to be open minded, evolution is a fact.

 

[Selly]

You can see Gods commands and character of love and how Jesus treats people far outweigh the argument for slavery that may appear in the Bible.

Ah, so what you are saying is that God's good work is sufficient that we can overlook the extremely morally ambiguous nature of his other work...

 

[Mad Mick]

I'd be interested to in the basic geographical errors you are referring to mad mick?

totally agree about context.

There are a number of sites that mention this.
Here is just one of them.
http://vridar.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/mark-failed-geography-but-great-bible-student/
Also have a look at this on you tube.

Let me just say that I do believe in a GOD.
I just haven't figured GOD out yet.
I also believe many religions have some positive elements, and maybe if we combined all the good bits from them all we might get a bit closer to finding GOD.

 

[Gavlar]

Nothing is controlling us, but the atoms hat make up your very being are all moving in a certain way and direction, as are all the atoms in the universe.

As such, and given we are part of the universe, those same atoms were always going to cause your thought processing to occur in that way.

If you could understand the position, direction of travel, and velocity of every atoms in the universe, you could, with enough processing power, predict the future.

However, Heisenbergs uncertainty principle states you can't do this as the more accurately you pinpoint an atoms position, the less certain you are about it's direction of travel.

Indeed the act of observing it seems to avtually effect it's position/direction of travel.

Don't get me wrong, if I am correct in my thoughts, it makes the world and universe extremely depressing, and yes there is an argument that no one should be punished for their acts. But I don't actually buy that line of reasoning as we have no means of knowing whether the punishment/rehabilitation is something that will work in that particular case.

It actually follows that all criminal conviction should actually be about rehabilitation rather than punishment if you look at it from the singular perspective of the criminal. However that would be to discount the effect that punishment has on the victims, and as a potential preventative measure.
quote]

Hi sellyoake,

ive just spotted this.

totally agree that rehabilitation is the way to go, but wrong acts have consequences aswell so i believe a punishment should fit the crime but then i also believe in second chances.

and thats what ive felt about athiesm, its worryingly depressing and to my mind more worrying if there is no one to hold us account to our actions at the end of lives. followed literally ie no evil, no purpose, no free will even, its a recipe for carnage.

 

[Gavlar]

He is the creator of the Universe.

By definition that makes everything his idea.

this is precisely the argument that i was talking about earlier, ie blaming God.

Evil is not his idea, he cannot be good and create evil. Evil exists entirely because we rejected God and chose our own path, God made the world to be perfect when we rejected him a virus entered the world called death its the worst virus thats ever existed and its our fault completely.

 

[Gavlar]

Jesus does indeed preach a gospel of love, but to his mind (and the mind of everyone else in the Bible) that is not inconsistent with slavery. No doubt Jesus thought Masters and slaves should love each other, but he does not for one moment suggest that the Master-slave relationship should not exist. If he did think that relationship was instrisically evil (as we all do now) he would have said so. The fact that he didn't says a lot.

With all due respect, I am trying to examine the evidence for the existence or non-existence of God, none of my arguments assume God doesn't exist. I conclude on the basis of the evidence that it is very likely that he doesn't exist. When you support your arguments by talking about one's relationship with God, that assumes God exists.

I have lived to the grand old age of 46 years and never seen or experienced anything that gives the slightest evidential basis for there being an interventionist God.

All the evidence comes at second or third hand and is shaky to say the least. And quite honestly, the efforts to explain away thinks like Aberfan, cancer etc as being consistent with the existence of a loving omnipotent God are about as convincing as my magical underpants having the power to effect United results![/quote]

Hi darren

thanks for your thoughts.

firstly you need to wear your magical underpants more, im going to blame you for our relegation and failure to be promoted last season for not wearing them more

secondly, your argument assumes that our life on earth and the natural world is the only thing that exists. it assumes that there is no life after death and no heaven. But what if there was a heaven? what if it was paradise with no more pain and suffering? ps here's a link on the subject of earthquakes that makes some interestiong points: http://www.philotrust.com/blog/2010/02/where-is-god-god-and-the-haiti-earthquake

The argument also assumes that God is the same as us and thinks in the same 3d ways that we do. But what if God was able to think far far higher and greater thoughts than us? That kind of goes along with being omnipotent.

Lastly, Here's a random question for a monday evening, If you were God how would you convince the world around you that you existed and were loving? would you be able to maintain free will?
If you interfered in rescued humans from every kind of evil would you find more people following you or would you be taken for granted?
Ever seen Bruce almighty? Jim Carey becomes God and answers yes to everyones prayers and it makes life worse.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

 

[B.Lade]

Does god count as one person or many for attendance purposes? Also, are his ticket purchases tax deductable for the club. Just trying to get you back on topic...

 

[Gavlar]

Interesting quote, I remember it doing the rounds on the buses a while back.

Unfortunately as Dawkins has admitted the universe has no meaning, purpose, good or evil
im not sure its that easy to enjoy life?

Or is about saying one thing and living another? (which us bible bashers are famous for)

 

[Highbury_Blade]

this is precisely the argument that i was talking about earlier, ie blaming God.

Evil is not his idea, he cannot be good and create evil. Evil exists entirely because we rejected God and chose our own path, God made the world to be perfect when we rejected him a virus entered the world called death its the worst virus thats ever existed and its our fault completely.

I presume this is the royal we? Who made that choice for me then?

I can only assume that if you belive in this then you must believe in the creation myth.

So how old is the planet Earth, and when did humans first walk on it?

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Jesus was probably a pretty impressive guy but he didn't always get it right. Turning water into wine at a wedding isn't just showing off, it's irresponsible. As a miracle, it just doesn't work on any level. Impressing people who are already drunk by magicking up more wine to get them pissed - how is that holy? That's what I'd ask the Pope if I met him. By the way, I'm not knocking God. He's a powerful man. Think about the recent earthquakes and tsunamis - he really does knock Al-Qaeda for six when it comes to killing the most number of people. For that alone, he deserves a quiet respect. That's why I never blaspheme.