Incoming? Ashleigh Artwell

[Enigmatic]

http://www.getbucks.co.uk/sport/foo...1168029?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

21 years old, former centre-mid turned winger, plying his trade in the 8th tier of English football. Some further research tells me he was formerly in Reading's academy, and has previously had a trial at Man Utd.

 

[Trigger Blade]

http://www.getbucks.co.uk/sport/foo...1168029?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

21 years old, former centre-mid turned winger, plying his trade in the 8th tier of English football. Some further research tells me he was formerly in Reading's academy, and has previously had a trial at Man Utd.

He scored a stunner against St Ives Town! I played against them, although it was in about 1972 and I didn't score a stunner and no offer from SUFC ever materialised

 

[Sothall_Blade]

http://www.getbucks.co.uk/sport/foo...1168029?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

21 years old, former centre-mid turned winger, plying his trade in the 8th tier of English football. Some further research tells me he was formerly in Reading's academy, and has previously had a trial at Man Utd.

What a time to be alive etc..

 

[MobileBlade]

What a time to be alive etc..

So Peterborough and others pick up some non league player several times; Fleetwood pick up someone like Vardy and there are others and the club gets slated for not identifying this sort of talent. We start to do it and ........

 

[Sothall_Blade]

So Peterborough and others pick up some non league player several times; Fleetwood pick up someone like Vardy and there are others and the club gets slated for not identifying this sort of talent. We start to do it and ........

Hardly slating them. Just not the most exciting news I've ever heard.

This is a 21 year old playing in the EiGHTH tier we are talking about. Vardy proved himself in the Conference before stepping up into the league. Adams was younger and sixth tier etc

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

"It follows the 21-year-old’s two goals and one assist in the Easter Saturday thrashing of North Greenford where Sheffield’s southern based scout was in attendance."


We have a "southern based scout"??!!

 

[Barney]

8th tier. Impressive stuff. Jesus Christ it's like a world of extremes with United. I know we should be scouting the lower divisions but I thought we'd steer clear of Sunday league.

 

[Treeton Blade]

Already brought in one from Beaconsfield, Connor Hall, a striker who has done well for the U18s , and has just been offered a pro deal.

The level doesn't matter, there's a lot of lads at that level who have been released from pro clubs, and are just playing for fun, the ability is there, and players develop at different ages.

 

[MobileBlade]

Hardly slating them. Just not the most exciting news I've ever heard.

This is a 21 year old playing in the EiGHTH tier we are talking about. Vardy proved himself in the Conference before stepping up into the league. Adams was younger and sixth tier etc

Actually when Vardy was released by Wendy he went to Stocksbridge Park Steels where he played for 4 seasons in the 7th tier. He then signed for Halifax who were in the same division. He spent 1 season there when Fleetwood signed him. One season in Conference where he played 36 games in all competitions (31 goals) before Leicester picked him up. 5 seasons at Tier 7 and 1 at Tier 5 wouldn't say he wad exactly established at the higher level.

 

[MobileBlade]

8th tier. Impressive stuff. Jesus Christ it's like a world of extremes with United. I know we should be scouting the lower divisions but I thought we'd steer clear of Sunday league.

So please tell us your deep knowledge of the Southern League that makes you think this.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Nice to see the scouting overhaul starting to reap some rewards. Fingers crossed they work out.

 

[mattbianco1]

Actually when Vardy was released by Wendy he went to Stocksbridge Park Steels where he played for 4 seasons in the 7th tier. He then signed for Halifax who were in the same division. He spent 1 season there when Fleetwood signed him. One season in Conference where he played 36 games in all competitions (31 goals) before Leicester picked him up. 5 seasons at Tier 7 and 1 at Tier 5 wouldn't say he wad exactly established at the higher level.

AND... He was 23 when he signed for Halifax.

 

[BeatleBlade]

Nice to see the scouting overhaul starting to reap some rewards. Fingers crossed they work out.

What has the scouting overhaul involved changing? Like, in regards to the previous set up.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Hardly slating them. Just not the most exciting news I've ever heard.

This is a 21 year old playing in the EiGHTH tier we are talking about. Vardy proved himself in the Conference before stepping up into the league. Adams was younger and sixth tier etc

Actually when Vardy was released by Wendy he went to Stocksbridge Park Steels where he played for 4 seasons in the 7th tier. He then signed for Halifax who were in the same division. He spent 1 season there when Fleetwood signed him. One season in Conference where he played 36 games in all competitions (31 goals) before Leicester picked him up. 5 seasons at Tier 7 and 1 at Tier 5 wouldn't say he wad exactly established at the higher level.

Like I said then, he proved himself in The Conference with 31 goals in 36 games. I'm not sure which bit you're disagreeing with.

 

[SB_90]

What a time to be alive etc..

Just remember where che adams came from

 

[nopigfansintown]

What has the scouting overhaul involved changing? Like, in regards to the previous set up.

More scouts covering a greater area basically. Not only consultants - but permanent scouts. We used to focus primarily on the local area: (Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Yorkshire, North West) and, of course, Scotland. We now scouts the wider UK including the more neglected areas e.g. South West. We also have scouts in untapped markets e.g. eastern Europe, Scandinavia and other EU countries (probably to get around work permit issues?). I think we have given up on the idea that you just pay big wages and fees for all outsourced players - that cheap players only come from our academy. Its about time too, imo: football is a global sport and you have to have eyes everywhere. This is very much still a work in progress and could well develop alongside KM's other international business interests. Adkins was shocked at the neglect this had taken and pushed for reform. The accounts today show we have to get much more for our money.

 

[BeatleBlade]

More scouts covering a greater area basically. Not only consultants - but permanent scouts. We used to focus primarily on the local area: (Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Yorkshire, North West) and, of course, Scotland. We now scouts the wider UK including the more neglected areas e.g. South West. We also have scouts in untapped markets e.g. eastern Europe, Scandinavia and other EU countries (probably to get around work permit issues?). I think we have given up on the idea that you just pay big wages and fees for all outsourced players - that cheap players only come from our academy. Its about time too, imo: football is a global sport and you have to have eyes everywhere. This is very much still a work in progress and could well develop alongside KM's other international business interests. Adkins was shocked at the neglect this had taken and pushed for reform. The accounts today show we have to get much more for our money.

That's good, when I hear about the work Adkins is doing behind the scenes I just know he's going to turn it around given time and the backing. Sounds like a dramatic change from Clough's very limited network.
It's interesting that you mention the south west because I have family down there who say how hard it is for kids to make it in Devon and Cornwall. There are so few clubs and their academies are more basic than the rest of the country. I think Plymouth had an alright one a few years ago but EPPP kind of screwed them over a bit.

 

[nopigfansintown]

That's good, when I hear about the work Adkins is doing behind the scenes I just know he's going to turn it around given time and the backing. Sounds like a dramatic change from Clough's very limited network.
It's interesting that you mention the south west because I have family down there who say how hard it is for kids to make it in Devon and Cornwall. There are so few clubs and their academies are more basic than the rest of the country. I think Plymouth had an alright one a few years ago but EPPP kind of screwed them over a bit.

Yeah, its a very unique part of the country but worth exploring because the north, midlands and south east are absolutely rammed with clubs and scouts. With EPPP the focus may well shift to picking up kids that don't make it like Jags, Tonge and Che. Our own best kids will end up getting cherry picked in the medium term unless the academy is upgraded. You pick them up at small teams, such as the Cornish sides, if your scouts are good enough. I'm surprised there isn't a branch of Man Utd's academy (or something similar) to pick kids up down there - its a potentially big market. I think even if Adkins doesn't work out he will put things in place that should continue regardless of the manager. He works for the club, not just NA. People seem to be grasping the type of financial impact Clough had, and that Adkins signings this season cannot receiving the wages some thought (I've been beating this dead horse for ages). Hopefully the fans will be patient with him. We will still have Coutts, Basham, Brayford etc earning big money from the Clough regime but happily will have got rid of Flo, Sammon, Higdon, Collins, James Wallace, Baxter etc so he'll have some wiggle room. Flynn is on big money because we turned a bid down from Brighton the summer after the FA Cup semi. Unless he takes a substantial pay cut I imagine he will leave too.

 

[BeatleBlade]

Yeah, its a very unique part of the country but worth exploring because the north, midlands and south east are absolutely rammed with clubs and scouts. With EPPP the focus may well shift to picking up kids that don't make it like Jags, Tonge and Che. Our own best kids will end up getting cherry picked in the medium term unless the academy is upgraded. You pick them up at small teams, such as the Cornish sides, if your scouts are good enough. I'm surprised there isn't a branch of Man Utd's academy (or something similar) to pick kids up down there - its a potentially big market. I think even if Adkins doesn't work out he will put things in place that should continue regardless of the manager. He works for the club, not just NA. People seem to be grasping the type of financial impact Clough had, and that Adkins signings this season cannot receiving the wages some thought (I've been beating this dead horse for ages). Hopefully the fans will be patient with him. We will still have Coutts, Basham, Brayford etc earning big money from the Clough regime but happily will have got rid of Flo, Sammon, Higdon, Collins, James Wallace, Baxter etc so he'll have some wiggle room.

I saw your post the other day about the plan remaining that Adkins would stay for us, do you think he'll be given the backing he needs to get things done next year? This year being austerity and then next term making a push to get us out. I hope these recent performances have instilled a bit more confidence in him at board level.

 

[nopigfansintown]

I saw your post the other day about the plan remaining that Adkins would stay for us, do you think he'll be given the backing he needs to get things done next year? This year being austerity and then next term making a push to get us out. I hope these recent performances have instilled a bit more confidence in him at board level.

Hard question to answer. Probably not the backing I'd like him to get, but he will get backing. I'd like investment in three or four young, high quality league one players. Lets say at a total cost of three million (notwithstanding sales). I don't think the money is there for that. He might get a couple, and two or three loan signings. You could argue that should be enough for promotion. I'd settle for top six playing exciting, in your face, pressing, passing football. Also some youngsters to develop, and we go for the title when we add a couple the season after.

 

[BeatleBlade]

Hard question to answer. Probably not the backing I'd like him to get, but he will get backing. I'd like investment in three or four young, high quality league one players. Lets say at a total cost of three million (notwithstanding sales). I don't think the money is there for that. He might get a couple, and two or three loan signings. You could argue that should be enough for promotion. I'd settle for top six playing exciting, in your face, pressing, passing football. Also some youngsters to develop, and we go for the title when we add a couple the season after.

Hopefully that'll be enough, or at least give us an exciting season and enough to show to show promise for the season after.

 

[Barney]

Hard question to answer. Probably not the backing I'd like him to get, but he will get backing. I'd like investment in three or four young, high quality league one players. Lets say at a total cost of three million (notwithstanding sales). I don't think the money is there for that. He might get a couple, and two or three loan signings. You could argue that should be enough for promotion. I'd settle for top six playing exciting, in your face, pressing, passing football. Also some youngsters to develop, and we go for the title when we add a couple the season after.

I'm just wondering, do you happen to know what the combined spend on fees and wages has been this season for the players coming in?

 

[nopigfansintown]

Around 1.5 million. (I don't know if Baptiste deal has changed since his loan extension). On the off chance we make promotion Sharp would be due a hefty promotion bonus. My sense is that there may be some kind of verbal agreement with Dean Hammond for next season, or he really likes playing football.

 

[Barney]

Around 1.5 million. (I don't know if Baptiste deal has changed since his loan extension). On the off chance we make promotion Sharp would be due a hefty promotion bonus. My sense is that there may be some kind of verbal agreement with Dean Hammond for next season, or he really likes playing football.

So this equates to just over 4k a week as an average wage for the players coming in when you assume Sharp cost a fee in the region of £500k. Even less if you include Baptiste which you seem to be doing.

I'm not doubting you but all I will say is that I would have thought they'd be on a bit more than that, especially with old competent Sheffield United as their employers. Hammond's basic must bring up the average on it's own.

 

[nopigfansintown]

The Hammond deal took so long to complete because we didn't have the money to pay 50% of his wages. Hammond has effectively took a pay cut to play for us (hence my comment about a possible verbal agreement). Sharp's took a sizable hit on his basic at Leeds, but could make it back and even get a pay rise in the unlikely event we won the playoffs. There's a lot of clever accounting going on (in light of FFP) and if Leeds wanted him off the wage bill he might have got a golden handshake (from the 500k to ease the deal through). I don't know about agents fees etc but if the total cost is more than 2m I'd be very surprised. United were very close to the FFP limit at the end of last season so they've had to juggle things around. My rule of thumb was that Adkins had the Murphy money to spend. He pretty much spent it, then we got the Old Trafford money, and then a bonus for Murphy's international call up. The Murphy fee didn't come in one lot so there should be money carried over into next season. Its had to pinpoint which money was used for what unless you had the club's books. On a side note, I think its unlikely were going to see big wages paid for any more incomings. Certainly not championship level wages. Fees and smaller wages hopefully.

 

[Barney]

The Hammond deal took so long to complete because we didn't have the money to pay 50% of his wages. Hammond has effectively took a pay cut to play for us (hence my comment about a possible verbal agreement). Sharp's took a sizable hit on his basic at Leeds, but could make it back and even get a pay rise in the unlikely event we won the playoffs. There's a lot of clever accounting going on (in light of FFP) and if Leeds wanted him off the wage bill he might have got a golden handshake (from the 500k to ease the deal through). I don't know about agents fees etc but if the total cost is more than 2m I'd be very surprised. United were very close to the FFP limit at the end of last season so they've had to juggle things around. My rule of thumb was that Adkins had the Murphy money to spend. He pretty much spent it, then we got the Old Trafford money, and then a bonus for Murphy's international call up. The Murphy fee didn't come in one lot so there should be money carried over into next season. Its had to pinpoint which money was used for what unless you had the club's books. On a side note, I think its unlikely were going to see big wages paid for any more incomings. Certainly not championship level wages. Fees and smaller wages hopefully.

Hope so. I have always wanted us to drop the wage bill and try and spend money in more of a subtle manner. We have been acting the big dogs so to speak by paying daft wages for Championship players when in actual fact I believe that the way to get out of this division is to drop everything down a notch and just out perform the rest of the division at their own game.

Paying above but close to league one wages, and recruiting sensibly and cleverly the best of the lower divisions - only paying out what we need to, to be a gear above the rest of the league. Which we should be able to do with our resources advantage.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Just wanted to add Sammon isn't included in the above calculations. He's our highest loan earner.

 

[Ricky]

I think even if Adkins doesn't work out he will put things in place that should continue regardless of the manager.

That's what I worry about if he's sacked - these things won't continue when we change manager. The club would just look to reduce costs. I don't expect them to grasp the importance of the changes he's trying to implement.

He works for the club, not just NA

Not surprising, and good to hear. Polar opposite of Clough.

We have been acting the big dogs so to speak by paying daft wages for Championship players when in actual fact I believe that the way to get out of this division is to drop everything down a notch and just out perform the rest of the division at their own game.

Spot on.

 

[Revolution]

Flynn is on big money because we turned a bid down from Brighton the summer after the FA Cup semi.

I know you've said this before, but this still depresses me. That was free money, and a body off the books for more than he was worth (can you imagine Flynn in the Championship? Me neither), and we gave him a new deal and got rid of Maguire instead.

I will never understand the thinking at United.

 

[Revolution]

Actually when Vardy was released by Wendy he went to Stocksbridge Park Steels where he played for 4 seasons in the 7th tier. He then signed for Halifax who were in the same division. He spent 1 season there when Fleetwood signed him. One season in Conference where he played 36 games in all competitions (31 goals) before Leicester picked him up. 5 seasons at Tier 7 and 1 at Tier 5 wouldn't say he wad exactly established at the higher level.

One thing that's interesting about Vardy - which also applies to a few others, like Grant Holt and Rickie Lambert, who arrived late having played in the lower divisions - was that when he arrived in the top flight he'd got a lot more actual match experience than some of his peers. It wasn't high level football, but he'd not been sitting on a subs bench, or playing under 21 football, or playing on loan for someone he may not be 100% loyal to. He'd been playing every week in games that meant something to his team.

It won't always work out, but I do wonder if you picked up a 23 or 24 year old who'd played well at Conference or league 2 level for a few seasons you might get something out of him. It certainly shouldn't cost much to find out.