Academy graduates

[LewishamBlade]

Billy Sharp is a bit of a stretch as well.

Didn't we sign him from Leeds United?

You know he’s played for us 3 times?

 

[Keen Blade]

'Steady' the right word for Gordon - made one excellent tackle in particular on the left hand side, and was OK defensively (one naive foul aside). Offensively, played one good ball to Billy, but tossed it away at least 2 or 3 times under no pressure. Can't really remember him getting forward. He wasn't the reason we lost on Saturday. Would Davies have been better on the ball? Probably, but he hardly gets forward when he's LCB so would be even more hesitant at RCB.

Not sure who I'd play on Friday night.

Goode's red card has fucked us up - typical Blades scenario , borrow a player to plug a yawning gap , then he immediately takes himself out for 3 games

 

[Keen Blade]

I thought he did well. He assisted. Got 7.67/10 on the match ratings for that game on here. Better than RND did in the next game he played at left back, but its all about opinions.

I don't think the scabs will offer the same aerial bombardment and well orchestrated set piece gamesmanship as Millwall.
So probably alright to play the smaller centre backs. If Basham is injured I really don't see the point of 5 at the back as he is the only one we have left who overlaps or drives us forward.
We should probably go to a back 4 - the extra bodies in midfield might help us going forward as we have looked shot shy in the last couple of games.

Egan & Robinson in a CB pair ? God help us

 

[Keen Blade]

I thought he did well and can forgive his low attacking output, it wasn't a game for bombing on as we weren't moving the ball quick enough.

The sloppy passing, if I remember, was early in the first half and I put it down to debut nerves at the time. I did have a few beers so my memory won't be perfect but I think his all round game improved after that good block in the LCB slot. He was beaten too often in the air for my liking but as a wide centre back that isn't critical.

I can see him keeping the shirt in Friday's game.

Being beaten often in the air is NOT critical for a CB ?
GIve your head a wobble.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Billy Sharp is a bit of a stretch as well.

Didn't we sign him from Leeds United?

We've had people arguing on here that Brooks and RND aren't academy graduates because they didn't play for the U16s. Now a new angle of Academy attack - any player who ever leaves Sheffield United can't be classed as an Academy graduate

 

[EddieColquhoun]

 

[Panini]

It's certainly something the be proud of, especially as our academy continues to produce professionals despite not being Category 1.

I'd still like to know why Ndiaye counts but not Brewster. Obviously not last night, but generally.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

SUFC Academy Graduate CeeeeeJ in the Blackpool team as well of course.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

It's certainly something the be proud of, especially as our academy continues to produce professionals despite not being Category 1.

I'd still like to know why Ndiaye counts but not Brewster. Obviously not last night, but generally.

I get your point, but maybe -
Ndiaye came on trial with the academy. After he signed he continued to work with the academy. Brewster was signed for £23m and went straight into the first team squad.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Your regular reminder that ALL our players are Academy Graduates. How mad is that?

 

[Panini]

I get your point, but maybe -
Ndiaye came on trial with the academy. After he signed he continued to work with the academy. Brewster was signed for £23m and went straight into the first team squad.

Yeah I totally get it and realise it's pedantic, but making up a definition that fits an instinct proves it's more about pride than anything else. I'm sure it'll happen with Joe Starbuck if/when he appears for the first team, despite playing in the EFL for Grimsby.

I'm fairness, the club rarely post stuff like this. It's only ever fan accounts.

Pedantry aside, I think it's great when a player signs their first professional contract with the Blades, initially plays outside the first team then goes on to play for the first team...but that's enough about Paul Rogers.

 

[S64 Blade]

It’s not really that hard to define. Did they play professional football before joining and did they play for our Academy side?

If the answer is no and yes, they count. This includes Ndiaye, but not Starbuck (Who is in the Che Adams category - development signing).

 

[Panini]

It’s not really that hard to define. Did they play professional football before joining and did they play for our Academy side?

If the answer is no and yes, they count. This includes Ndiaye, but not Starbuck (Who is in the Che Adams category - development signing).

Ok, I'm trying to keep up. So we're saying:

Ndiaye - didn't play professional football before joining us (he might have done but let's say he didn't) and did play for our academy side - he counts

Starbuck - did play professional football before joining us and did play for our academy side - so he doesn't count (despite the OP and Heckingbottom referring to him as an academy graduate)

Adams - didn't play professional football before joining us, and did play for our academy side - but somehow he doesn't count?

Rogers - didn't play professional football before joining us, and played for what became our U23 development side - no-one would call him an academy graduate in a month of Sundays but he counts at least as much as Ndiaye.

If Starbuck counts then Adams 100% counts, and if Adams counts then I'm struggling to discount Rogers. Rogers counts as much as Ndiaye, which means Brewster is in.

I thought it wasn't that hard to define?

Really I'm not fussed either way and I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I'm just calling out something that's purporting to mean something but doesn't. I'm interested in this sort of thing and think it's harsh on the clubs who played a fundamental role in these players' development.

Honestly, the best correlation I can spot is 'can we get away with it', which is why you'll see Ndiaye and Starbuck on these lists and never Brewster or Adams.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I'm fairness, the club rarely post stuff like this. It's only ever fan accounts.

I have heard Hecky mention the number of academy graduates before........and he was counting Ndiaye

 

[S64 Blade]

Ok, I'm trying to keep up. So we're saying:

Ndiaye - didn't play professional football before joining us (he might have done but let's say he didn't) and did play for our academy side - he counts

Starbuck - did play professional football before joining us and did play for our academy side - so he doesn't count (despite the OP and Heckingbottom referring to him as an academy graduate)

Adams - didn't play professional football before joining us, and did play for our academy side - but somehow he doesn't count?

Rogers - didn't play professional football before joining us, and played for what became our U23 development side - no-one would call him an academy graduate in a month of Sundays but he counts at least as much as Ndiaye.

If Starbuck counts then Adams 100% counts, and if Adams counts then I'm struggling to discount Rogers. Rogers counts as much as Ndiaye, which means Brewster is in.

I thought it wasn't that hard to define?

Really I'm not fussed either way and I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I'm just calling out something that's purporting to mean something but doesn't. I'm interested in this sort of thing and think it's harsh on the clubs who played a fundamental role in these players' development.

Honestly, the best correlation I can spot is 'can we get away with it', which is why you'll see Ndiaye and Starbuck on these lists and never Brewster or Adams.

Guessing you mean Paul Rogers (before my time)? Who’d played 190 games (albeit at conference level) but was 27 when we signed him? If you can’t work that one out, then I can’t help you. Comparing the old reserves league with the under 23s is way off. And the under 23s is not really an academy side is it (given you can still play 4 players over the age of 23).

Adams signed and played a few academy games at most. He was on the bench the day after he signed (Donny) and made his first team full debut within 1 month of signing.

Not sure what’s so hard to understand about Brewster not being counted. He’s never even played for academy.

 

[Dan Emery]

As I see it, it's simple.

If a player was bought/signed for the first team and never played for the academy they're not an academy graduate.

If a player was brought it as a development player and played for the academy and then GRADUATED to the first team, they're an academy graduate.

If the player was brought in to develop but never played for the academy because they were over age but then moved on to the first team then we can give ourselves a pat on the back however, they aren't an academy graduate. Anything more is spin and PR.

 

[Panini]

Guessing you mean Paul Rogers (before my time)? Who’d played 190 games (albeit at conference level) but was 27 when we signed him? If you can’t work that one out, then I can’t help you. Comparing the old reserves league with the under 23s is way off. And the under 23s is not really an academy side is it (given you can still play 4 players over the age of 23).

Adams signed and played a few academy games at most. He was on the bench the day after he signed (Donny) and made his first team full debut within 1 month of signing.

Not sure what’s so hard to understand about Brewster not being counted. He’s never even played for academy.

The reserve league became the U23 development league. It's literally the same thing, rebadged. Hence overage players being allowed.

But if it's not an academy side anyway, then Ndiaye and Starbuck don't count so thanks for clearing that up

Brewster has also played for our U23s, for what it's worth.

It's a load of nonsense and, respectfully, any attempt you and others have made to define what makes an academy graduate has quickly contradicted itself or partly proved one of my daft examples.

 

[Bladesman]

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

N'diaye, Starbuck, Freckleton, Lopata, Seriki, Jebbison no matter how they were recruited or who they had played for previously and at what level, initially trained week in, week out with the other Academy players - with Binnion, Dungworth, Geary, Collins, etc putting the cones out & telling them where to stand. Sure, occasionally they might kick around with the first team for experience or to make numbers up, but their day job was with the Academy Staff.

That is not true of Brewster (for example).

The Academy is about learning the game, honing your game, changing your game. Some players progress through that phase rather quickly. N'diaye would be an example. Some more slowly. But, it's a distinct phase none the less.

Isn't that THE way of distinguishing Academy Graduates?

 

[Panini]

No matter how they were recruited or who they had played for previously and at what level, initially trained week in, week out with the other Academy players

Some players progress through that phase rather quickly. Some more slowly. But, it's a distinct phase none the less.

We're all trying to nail it down, but each definition creates an outlier that doesn't fit quite right. Yours makes Dominic Calvert-Lewin an Everton academy graduate.

I'm sticking with my understanding that we're calling someone an academy graduate 'if we can get away with it'.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

We're all trying to nail it down, but each definition creates an outlier that doesn't fit quite right. Yours makes Dominic Calvert-Lewin an Everton academy graduate.

I'm sticking with my understanding that we're calling someone an academy graduate 'if we can get away with it'.

Yes of course Dominic is a Handsworth Academy Graduate, a Sheffield United Academy Graduate & an Everton Academy Graduate. (At least). There's not much argument about that is there? He's not an outlier in any way....

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

And, surely, if a player has played U18 football at a particular club, he's a graduate of that Academy. Isn't that irrefutable?

 

[mattbianco1]

I get your point, but maybe -
Ndiaye came on trial with the academy. After he signed he continued to work with the academy. Brewster was signed for £23m and went straight into the first team squad.

Lopata too. We signed him from Brighton

 

[Kanye]

We're all trying to nail it down, but each definition creates an outlier that doesn't fit quite right. Yours makes Dominic Calvert-Lewin an Everton academy graduate.

I'm sticking with my understanding that we're calling someone an academy graduate 'if we can get away with it'.

Yes of course Dominic is a Handsworth Academy Graduate, a Sheffield United Academy Graduate & an Everton Academy Graduate. (At least). There's not much argument about that is there? He's not an outlier in any way....

View attachment 132626

Lopata too. We signed him from Brighton

Dominic Calvert Lewin played for our first team before signing for Everton, so technically he "graduated" at Sheff Utd, though I'm sure all the club's he played for can take some credit for his rise.
Lopata obviously never got close to Brighton's first team, so to call him a graduate of Brighton's system seems like a stretch. A more accurate term could be 'product' - which I'm sure Ball_Sup (Phil) will love, what with it being a classic example of how we commoditise these young players.

I'd say Phil's definition in post 49 is as close as we're going to get, I'd just personally add that unless they make it to the first team, I'm not sure I would count it as a 'graduation'.

Many players spend time in different systems, but I think the team that coaches them in their youth teams, before ultimately handing them their professional debut deserves the lion's share of the credit.

I welcome the tenuous exception to the rule that will discredit this post.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I guess I'm increasingly "siding" with Panini. It's what you want it to mean. This thread has shown me I Deffo use Academy Graduate in a widely inclusive way. If they've been in the system, I class them as graduating from it. If they go on to lead the line for England, or never kick a ball again, graduates. And I have no interest in which Academy "counts the most". Bolton can claim Ramsdale as their Academy Graduate. Manchester United can claim Will Osula. Doesn't fuss me. I'm actually quite proud to unearth that I use the term inclusively.
.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

 

[LudlamBlade]

Ramsdale
Seriki
Gordon
Jagielka
Lopata
RND
Brunt
Slater
N'Diaye
Sharp
Jebbo
----------------------------
Smith
Osula

Can't think if I've missed any?

I think that side would (just about) hold their own at L1 level

 

[Blad]

Hackford

 

[LudlamBlade]

Hackford

Knew there'd be at least one I'd forgot!

 

[Revolution]

I thought this was misleading, as it sounds like we’ve been giving academy players a run, when in reality the vast majority of these appearances were made by Sharp and Ramsdale, who were indeed academy players but signed from somewhere else.

Wilder didn’t pick someone direct from the academy in his last 2 and a bit seasons aside from Hackford’s one sub appearance.