A reminder to the board bashers

[Maidenhead]

Is it your position that if we can't guarantee promotion by increasing our budget we shouldn't bother?

My position is that we have to manage the club in a sensible manner within available resources.

If we gamble and lose one season, what do you think we should do the following year?

Gamble more because we obviously need to or say "well we tried and failed, we now need a period of consolidation to recoup last years losses?"

If you want to gamble more, what do we do the following season if we fail again?

How many times can we fail without inviting serious financial problems and suddenly it's 1975 once more?

 

[Davalon]

it helps spending but isnt a cure all panacea

every season theres someone goes up who hasnt chucked millions at it
IF Millwall make it , it makes a mockery of your point

plus if we get big investment and we throw 100m at it and still dont go up,,, what then
as villa boro or fulham will

It doesn't make a mockery of anything.

The facts are clear that in the main the teams with money have notably more success than those who don't.

We don't have it so it's irrelevant to us anyway at present.

The only point you're making is that you're better off spending little than more because there will still be teams who fail that have spent significantly.

The other side of that is that there will be even more who fail who haven't spent.

There's only one choice open to us at present.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I saw a fabulous new Ferrari at a local garage the other day but despite all my ambition to buy it, and I really really wanted to, I just didn't have enough money

If only my pension funds hadn't sold me so short.

Imagine what your good lady is saying about you to her friends on SnapChat.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

I agree Joe , Wilder will not make waves over his budget .,like all managers he probably like more tha .he gets .Don't beleave he's looking at expensive signings at this stage as it would unbalance the structure as it stands,that's one for the future .
The way we set up does as you say make us vulnerable to counter attacking teams .Wilder and Knill will be looking at that for next season,but don't beleave they will change the fundermental of playing on the front foot,it's a matter of bringing in better players to fit the positions whether through the academy or players in.
If he feels some of the present squad have reached there summit then he will move them on no sentimentality in football if you want to be successful.
Going to be another interesting window as we have to bring players into the squad to improve our weaknesses,we all know what they are.Staying within the budget he's been given.He we have funds whether the ownership problem is solved or not,as all managers say stand still and you go backwoods in a footballing sense.
Chris I'm sure will be here next season as is mission is in its early stages.
To tell players who have given it there best shot ,you arnt good enough must be tough .must be one of the hardest things a manager has to do.Much better to tell them face to face rather than send them to Coventry (as Collins was )

I agree with much of what you say, but there's an assumption in there that appears to be prevalent on this forum which is that, in order to play ' on the front foot ' it is necessary to set up with 3 at the back and 5 across midfield. This is manifestly not the case.

The three most successful exponents of attacking football in England are City, Spurs and Liverpool and, most of the time, they employ a back four and a holding midfield player. This solid base allows them to deploy plenty of creative, attack minded players further up the pitch and, as a result, score lots of goals.

I've been saying for some time that the sooner we adopt this strategy the better and I'm now even more convinced than ever that this is the case, particularly taking into account some of the farcical goals we have conceded since Xmas many of which have been as a result of our set up rather than just individual errors as many would have us believe.

 

[finlaytheblade]

I agree with much of what you say, but there's an assumption in there that appears to be prevalent on this forum which is that, in order to play ' on the front foot ' it is necessary to set up with 3 at the back and 5 across midfield. This is manifestly not the case.

The three most successful exponents of attacking football in England are City, Spurs and Liverpool and, most of the time, they employ a back four and a holding midfield player. This solid base allows them to deploy plenty of creative, attack minded players further up the pitch and, as a result, score lots of goals.

I've been saying for some time that the sooner we adopt this strategy the better and I'm now even more convinced than ever that this is the case, particularly taking into account some of the farcical goals we have conceded since Xmas many of which have been as a result of our set up rather than just individual errors as many would have us believe.

Yes I agree Joe,Wilder came in with a 4 at the back formation the rest is flexible.
Changed to a back 3 it worked great.
We may go back to his first love which means the window is important to bring in
players who fit the mould.
If he prefers a four he may have stuck with a three as it was successful rather than going back to a four which possibly wouldn't have.
We may approach our second year differently ( play offs still possible ) as the coaching team have got a better handle on what's needed.
Time will tell .! In Wilder we trust. !

 

[snootyfenooty]

Yes I agree Joe,Wilder came in with a 4 at the back formation the rest is flexible.
Changed to a back 3 it worked great.
We may go back to his first love which means the window is important to bring in
players who fit the mould.
If he prefers a four he may have stuck with a three as it was successful rather than going back to a four which possibly wouldn't have.
We may approach our second year differently ( play offs still possible ) as the coaching team have got a better handle on what's needed.
Time will tell .! In Wilder we trust. !

The formation should be flexible from game to game or even within a game. To stick with a back three doggedly just because we lost a couple of games nearly two years ago with a back four is stubborn to put it politely but fucking plain stupid if you say it as it is. As Mr Shaw has said, some of the goals we let in were farcical and wouldn't have happened if we had a four with a couple of fullbacks playing as fullbacks. The Fulham game (the start of our demise) is a classic example where we could have set-up to suit.

 

[finlaytheblade]

The formation should be flexible from game to game or even within a game. To stick with a back three doggedly just because we lost a couple of games nearly two years ago with a back four is stubborn to put it politely but fucking plain stupid if you say it as it is. As Mr Shaw has said, some of the goals we let in were farcical and wouldn't have happened if we had a four with a couple of fullbacks playing as fullbacks. The Fulham game (the start of our demise) is a classic example where we could have set-up to suit.

Goes without saying we should be flexjbls
Wilder has changed within games,it seems he thinks our squad is best playing with a threthree
If his first love is a four then I would expect him to do that at some point.
It's in his hands and he wants success so we have to see what developes

 

[N20 Blade]

Although I enjoy sticking the boot into KM as much as the next man, I have to admit that he/we have done all the sensible things to move the club forward, it's just a heady mixture of bad luck, gnat's cock out timing and loss of belief that's done us. We tried to increase & vary off field income streams, we've invested in an academy, we've sold on our youth at profit, we've modernised the ground, we've bought feeder clubs, employed established managers, etc.

People say that if freddie mercury had managed live 12 months longer he'd be alive today due to advancements in drugs, and that's very similar to the blades. I'm not suggesting for one minute that the availability of Raltegravir on the NHS has hampered our progress as a club, but if we'd managed to remain in the premier league for 12 months longer in 2007, due to the increase in £'s we'd still be there. And we'd be there with a back four of naughton, maguire, jags & walker.

There would still be a post on here complaining that we'd only finished sixth in the PL and if we'd only spent more we would have finished in the top four...

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Goes without saying we should be flexjbls
Wilder has changed within games,it seems he thinks our squad is best playing with a threthree
If his first love is a four then I would expect him to do that at some point.
It's in his hands and he wants success so we have to see what developes

Have you started on the wine a bit early ?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Have you started on the wine a bit early ?

About 9am by the looks of it

 

[Revolution]

There would still be a post on here complaining that we'd only finished sixth in the PL and if we'd only spent more we would have finished in the top four...

Nonsense.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Where could they raise the money from?

Financial institutions of many different kinds. It comes at a cost of course, but that's why I say it comes down to the business strategy for the club.

I wonder if I visited SUFC would I find such a document as a strategic business plan with a minimum 3 year, and preferably 5 year outlook, and an operational plan for the season ahead? Would there be something in either document about, "if we have a league position of x, and finances of y, in January, we should prepare to invest up z amount to give ourselves the best chance of promotion".

I've a feeling no such documents exist. The business strategy down there is "make more on players sales than what we spend on them" - and that's about it really.

That's why there wasn't an appropriate level of investment in Jan. And that's why we'll be doing the same next Jan.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Nonsense.

Posts relating to our various championship seasons have repeatedly said as much. Why would the select few who are more ambitious apparently than the rest of us change their tune if a CL run had been a possibility. It's not nonsense at all.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

We haven't spent 'nothing'



That was last season...



So you've got replacement owners lined up?



I would imagine Brighton and Bournemouth would attract attention based on their location.

I'm not sure how wealthy Huddersfield's owner is, but he's a local man and Huddersfield supporter, so I doubt he was ever going invest anywhere but Huddersfield.



Ambitous enough or wealthy enough?



So you think Mitrovic was a realistic signing?

I use Mitrovic as an example, but yes I do. I think we should be looking for players like that, obviously a top player but one who wasn't getting in the first team at a Prem club at the time. It would cost a lot in wages, but for just over 4 months if we'd signed him in Jan - and we'd probably be able to negotiate something with the parent club.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Financial institutions of many different kinds. It comes at a cost of course, but that's why I say it comes down to the business strategy for the club.

I wonder if I visited SUFC would I find such a document as a strategic business plan with a minimum 3 year, and preferably 5 year outlook, and an operational plan for the season ahead? Would there be something in either document about, "if we have a league position of x, and finances of y, in January, we should prepare to invest up z amount to give ourselves the best chance of promotion".

I've a feeling no such documents exist. The business strategy down there is "make more on players sales than what we spend on them" - and that's about it really.

That's why there wasn't an appropriate level of investment in Jan. And that's why we'll be doing the same next Jan.

Consultant speak. Draw up a business plan, make it fit the aim. Worry about it only when it goes wrong. Do another plan.

Borrow money then. Didnt work before. Spent heavily after PL relegation. Lost heavily, borrowed more.

Which financial institutions. You must know of a few it seems.

No business plan? Rubbish. Ones that haven't worked undoubtedly.

 

[Revolution]

Posts relating to our various championship seasons have repeatedly said as much. Why would the select few who are more ambitious apparently than the rest of us change their tune if a CL run had been a possibility. It's not nonsense at all.

Yes it is. It's the normal reflexive clapper nonsense. If we equal our highest position in a half century, with the 5 clubs above us all being Big Evil Clubs, and qualify for Europe for the first time, everyone will be ecstatic.

What people think about the championship has nothing to do with what would happen if we ever get in the PL and, God forbid, prosper.

Shame we won't get a chance to test this out of course.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Consultant speak. Draw up a business plan, make it fit the aim. Worry about it only when it goes wrong. Do another plan.

Borrow money then. Didnt work before. Spent heavily after PL relegation. Lost heavily, borrowed more.

Which financial institutions. You must know of a few it seems.

No business plan? Rubbish. Ones that haven't worked undoubtedly.

We're currently being financed by Shawbrook Bank aren't we? KM has done business with the CEO before.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

I saw a fabulous new Ferrari at a local garage the other day but despite all my ambition to buy it, and I really really wanted to, I just didn't have enough money

If only my pension funds hadn't sold me so short.

I'd put it to you that you could have raised the funds to buy it. You might have had to sell other things, like your house, to do so, or made other sacrifices, but the chances are you could have raised the funds. However, you decided that the benefits weren't worth the risks. And that's what businesses do in this situation. They weigh up the pro's and con's of investing in something and what it would mean if they did, and to what extent. And also what it would mean if they didn't.

"Risk/benefit ratio" it's called. We all take such things into account, often subconsciously, when making purchasing decisions or other types of decisions. My point is that the Board have been too "risk averse" when faced with the situation the club found themselves in, in January.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Yes it is. It's the normal reflexive clapper nonsense. If we equal our highest position in a half century, with the 5 clubs above us all being Big Evil Clubs, and qualify for Europe for the first time, everyone will be ecstatic.

What people think about the championship has nothing to do with what would happen if we ever get in the PL and, God forbid, prosper.

Shame we won't get a chance to test this out of course.

The irony in your second sentence speaks volumes.

There are many posts on here over the last seven years saying exactly that "spending more would've". You really think those people would stop in the PL? They said it after the last time and have been saying it ever since.

Sixth place wouldn't put us in the CL btw. Which was rather the point that was being made by N20 Blade

 

[Revolution]

The irony in your second sentence speaks volumes.

There are many posts on here over the last seven years saying exactly that "spending more would've". You really think those people would stop in the PL? They said it after the last time and have been saying it ever since.

Sixth place wouldn't put us in the CL btw. Which was rather the point that was being made by N20 Blade

Yes, I think that if this team got promoted and finished sixth everyone would be delighted. It would be like last season only better. I don't recall anyone complaining about last season.

Sixth would put us in the Europa League which the last time I checked was a European competition. I said nothing about the CL.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Consultant speak. Draw up a business plan, make it fit the aim. Worry about it only when it goes wrong. Do another plan.

Borrow money then. Didnt work before. Spent heavily after PL relegation. Lost heavily, borrowed more.

Which financial institutions. You must know of a few it seems.

No business plan? Rubbish. Ones that haven't worked undoubtedly.

oh dear!

Look mate, you believe what you want to believe. I believe the club hasn't been ambitious enough in terms of giving Wilder a little bit more financial flexibility in January to bring in some very good quality players, whether that be a short-term loan, or whatever. I think that was a golden opportunity missed and I think the investment could have been raised to do so.

I'm not "Board Bashing" - I think they've actually done a sound job over the past few years in stabilising the club and their approach has been sensible in the main. But on this occasion I think they've missed a trick, I really do.

That's my opinion - sorry if you don't like it - but there it is.

 

[Sean Thornton]

We're currently being financed by Shawbrook Bank aren't we? KM has done business with the CEO before.

Scarborough do, buts let's muddy the waters based on err, what exactly?

 

[finlaytheblade]

Have you started on the wine a bit early ?

It's the word chequer does some strange things can be quite embarrassing if I don't notice it, as you just saw.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Scarborough do, buts let's muddy the waters based on err, what exactly?

I'm not muddying the water ST, it was an honest comment regarding a query about financial institutions. I thought the loan we took out to finance the purchases of the JTW was from Shawbrook Bank. And was suggesting that the reason for this lending in the current climate was based upon previous business between the parties in whatever capacity. I wasn't intending to play the twat, so I don't appreciate being treated like one.

 

[Sean Thornton]

oh dear!

Look mate, you believe what you want to believe. I believe the club hasn't been ambitious enough in terms of giving Wilder a little bit more financial flexibility in January to bring in some very good quality players, whether that be a short-term loan, or whatever. I think that was a golden opportunity missed and I think the investment could have been raised to do so.

I'm not "Board Bashing" - I think they've actually done a sound job over the past few years in stabilising the club and their approach has been sensible in the main. But on this occasion I think they've missed a trick, I really do.

That's my opinion - sorry if you don't like it - but there it is.

Not a case of not liking it. The problem with it is that there is, currently, no money. Whatever theoretical suggestions anyone comes up with, without cold hard cash it's pie in the sky. Any club, including a loss making United, has to pay the money back. Where are you to tout a loss making business shored up over the years by owners capital for a loan to a company with negative equity and no promise of a short term increase in trading income?

The difference between us is that with minimal - and only historic - information, you believe you have the answer, where I would never presume to have.

It's a shite position to be in but cold hard facts trump any "if only" business plan for a business that has to shift focus depending on what happens on the pitch.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Yes, I think that if this team got promoted and finished sixth everyone would be delighted. It would be like last season only better. I don't recall anyone complaining about last season.

Sixth would put us in the Europa League which the last time I checked was a European competition. I said nothing about the CL.

People were complaining about the Summer spend. Then the January one, even though both were more than some claimed they would be.

CL? I did. Have a look.

 

[N20 Blade]

Yes, I think that if this team got promoted and finished sixth everyone would be delighted. It would be like last season only better. I don't recall anyone complaining about last season.

Sixth would put us in the Europa League which the last time I checked was a European competition. I said nothing about the CL.

My comment was a reflection on the way football fans think and behave, albeit subconsciously and at times irrationally; times change and targets likewise. As mentioned numerous times, if offered a top half finish in the Championship, above SWFC, 27k average crowds, etc. after the Scunthorpe debacle under Adkins, then it would have been an overwhelming ‘yes please’. However, time moves on, our hopes, aspirations and expectations change (for various reasons) and normally fans want more not less, better not worse, which I get. My point is that if we did make huge strides, human nature is such that fans never accept their lot and say ‘that’s it, nothing more to do here’. Stability is a negative word for football fans, it seems negative, compared to the gamble of being more successful. That’s why Man City fans will demand more next year, a CL to go with the PL. Also, why Leicester fans are destined for decades of comparative misery because having won the PL, they’re going to be constantly trying to recapture that moment but never will. I don’t think United fans are any different to any other fans in that respect, we would always want to go one step further and be even more successful. What's made this so difficult to handle, is that the forbidden fruit was within our reach, in November, we all felt (some privately only) that this was Bassett mark 2 with an outside but possible chance of back to back promotions. Cruelly, it wasn't to be and now we want to vent our frustration and get answers, when maybe there aren't any, it's just the way it is.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I'm not muddying the water ST, it was an honest comment regarding a query about financial institutions. I thought the loan we took out to finance the purchases of the JTW was from Shawbrook Bank. And was suggesting that the reason for this lending in the current climate was based upon previous business between the parties in whatever capacity. I wasn't intending to play the twat, so I don't appreciate being treated like one.

I apologise profusely I only looked at BL accounts. You are totally correct. There's only one twat in this conversation.

I've missed this and now wonder if our financial position is actually worse than I thought.

Sorry again.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Not a case of not liking it. The problem with it is that there is, currently, no money. Whatever theoretical suggestions anyone comes up with, without cold hard cash it's pie in the sky. Any club, including a loss making United, has to pay the money back. Where are you to tout a loss making business shored up over the years by owners capital for a loan to a company with negative equity and no promise of a short term increase in trading income?

The difference between us is that with minimal - and only historic - information, you believe you have the answer, where I would never presume to have.

It's a shite position to be in but cold hard facts trump any "if only" business plan for a business that has to shift focus depending on what happens on the pitch.

I've been educated by Nicolaus_Copernicus a few moments ago. I was wrong. We did borrow. However, it doesn't look as if it worked.

Back to the spreadsheet, up the income, lower the contingency, off we go again.

 

[Oldun]

I read an interesting article about wolves the other day concerning their financial backers and other associated people.
Wolves owners are Chinese and they bought in that Mendez who is a crooked agent I M O. He's managed to help them sign some top players. They're now promoted of course but still people are asking questions and will continue to do so?.
The point I'm trying to make is that I wouldn't want us to fall into that trap. Eventually I believe wolves will come unstuck and it will all collapse around them.
I just hope our boardroom situation gets sorted soon. UTB

Yep hope our board never fall into the trap of trying something different and getting us promoted.