9th in the PL. Was it The System or The Personnel?

[Ron_Justice]

That 1st CWAK season in the PL was probably the high watermark for me as a Blade and a return to the Championship has got me wondering; even with decent summer recruitment, can we go again, as soon as next year?

Last time we went up and actually made a fist of it, we did it on the back of a 3 year re-build. 3 years of bringing in players to suit a novel system but also, and with one eye on CW's recent comments about certain unnamed players, players of a certain character.

I wonder, without the surprise of the Overlappers (because I doubt there's another unique way of playing waiting to be discovered), would the right characters, brought together via a modest budget, be enough to fare better in the PL than this season?

Personally, I'm not sure a year in the Championship is long enough to build a group, on a budget, that has a strong enough identity. To develop a squad that's so aligned with each other, tactically, that they can play on instinct, without fear, and be greater than the sum of the parts.

So what do we think, last time around what was more important? Was it The System or the Personnel? Is the conversation around 'right type' too overblown or do we need to pay special attention to the characters of the personnel, given we're going to working with a modest budget by todays standards?

 

[Swannyblade]

That 1st CWAK season in the PL was probably the high watermark for me as a Blade and a return to the Championship has got me wondering; even with decent summer recruitment, can we go again, as soon as next year?

Last time we went up and actually made a fist of it, we did it on the back of a 3 year re-build. 3 years of bringing in players to suit a novel system but also, and with one eye on CW's recent comments about certain unnamed players, players of a certain character.

I wonder, without the surprise of the Overlappers (because I doubt there's another unique way of playing waiting to be discovered), would the right characters, brought together via a modest budget, be enough to fare better in the PL than this season?

Personally, I'm not sure a year in the Championship is long enough to build a group, on a budget, that has a strong enough identity. To develop a squad that's so aligned with each other, tactically, that they can play on instinct, without fear, and be greater than the sum of the parts.

So what do we think, last time around what was more important? Was it The System or the Personnel? Is the conversation around 'right type' too overblown or do we need to pay special attention to the characters of the personnel, given we're going to working with a modest budget by todays standards?

Boring answer, but it was both - we had the personnel that fit into a very effective system. I'd also add momentum and unwavering self belief to the mix as well.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

It wasn't the personal in terms of individual talent. Only Henderson has really got his foot in the premier league since.

 

[Blackheath Blade]

A bit of both for me Ron. The system we played was unique to the Blades and worked brilliantly in a league that didn't know how to deal with it effectively.

Wilder also built a squad of players who were prepared to run through brick walls for him. The squad we have now wouldn't go to the fuckin corner shop for him.

 

[Jimmy Fleck]

O’Connell injury was a catalyst for our downfall- along with a poor transfer window after first prem season

 

[Ron_Justice]

It wasn't the personal in terms of individual talent. Only Henderson has really got his foot in the premier league since.

Which I think is where the conversation about the 'character' comes from. It's the bit that gives us the extra percent we miss in terms of the talent we can afford.

 

[MadDad38]

I think there is a third important factor - confidence. On paper last time we didn”t have a squad that should have been competing for European places. But the back 4 had confidence in the keeper, both knew that the midfield would offer a bit of a shield. The loss of O’Connell cannot be understated imo for the next season.

This season even if we had low expectations, Utd have performed well below them. Everyone including the first team, knew that Iliman and Berge were our two best contracted players and they went. Everyone in BDTBL at the Crystal Palace match knew by the end how the season would turn out.

 

[Ron_Justice]

A bit of both for me Ron. The system we played was unique to the Blades and worked brilliantly in a league that didn't know how to deal with it effectively.

Wilder also built a squad of players who were prepared to run through brick walls for him. The squad we have now wouldn't go to the fuckin corner shop for him.

Is one season in the Championship enough to build a squad that would do that again? I'm not so sure. That tenacity, amongst the players that came with us from L1 in particular, isn't bought, it's bred.

 

[MadDad38]

O’Connell injury was a catalyst for our downfall- along with a poor transfer window after first prem season

You beat me to it but yes! O’Connell loss more important than covid/empty stadium

 

[Harry's Game]

We had developed a unique style that no one could at first fathom out, we had a settled side with hardly any injuries, the players confidence was sky high, the defence was solid and we had a top keeper.

but..

The style was sussed out and once effective countermeasures were deployed we had not got plan B

We got injuries to key players

once we started losing the confidence evaporated

the injuries decimated the solid defence.

the keepers loan came to an end and we have had average to bad keepers ever since,

 

[SwissBlade]

We did things which hadn’t been seen before. Overlapping centre halves and overloads all over the pitch, plus we had awkward players like mousset with is pace and power, smart experience of Didsy and Billy, McBurnie to battle, even Robinson caused problems up top for the short period he was with us. pacey wing backs and a well protected midfielder spraying balls about.

It helped that the spine was consistent, solid and injury free and that we had a very consistent keeper

 

[Ron_Justice]

O’Connell injury was a catalyst for our downfall- along with a poor transfer window after first prem season

We've struggled to fill the void ever since. LB/LWB has to be at/near the top of the priority list this summer.

 

[Ron_Justice]

We had developed a unique style that no one could at first fathom out, we had a settled side with hardly any injuries, the players confidence was sky high, the defence was solid and we had a top keeper.

but..

The style was sussed out and once effective countermeasures were deployed we had not got plan B

We got injuries to key players

once we started losing the confidence evaporated

the injuries decimated the solid defence.

the keepers loan came to an end and we have had average to bad keepers ever since,

Aye, agreed. A perfect storm that both built us and brought us crashing down. Is a single season enough to do it again? I doubt it.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Team had good players, playing well
Defence was supremely drilled. That was the 'system', everyone knew how to fill the gaps left behind when others pressed. We were still a poor attacking team
Complete lack of injuries
Lots and lots of luck in low scoring games
A weaker league in transition, with a lot of poor managers

 

[Working Class Hero]

We had developed a unique style that no one could at first fathom out, we had a settled side with hardly any injuries, the players confidence was sky high, the defence was solid and we had a top keeper.

but..

The style was sussed out and once effective countermeasures were deployed we had not got plan B

We got injuries to key players

once we started losing the confidence evaporated

the injuries decimated the solid defence.

the keepers loan came to an end and we have had average to bad keepers ever since,

Was it ever sussed out though? No one ever sussed the Basham and O'Connell overlapping centre back conundrum.

 

[Ron_Justice]

Team had good players, playing well
Defence was supremely drilled. That was the 'system', everyone knew how to fill the gaps left behind when others pressed. We were still a poor attacking team
Complete lack of injuries
Lots and lots of luck in low scoring games
A weaker league in transition, with a lot of poor managers

Yep, all of which makes me think that even with a good budget (by our standards) we're going to struggle to build a robust enough squad to survive in the PL even if we do manage to go up again in a single season.

 

[Ron_Justice]

Was it ever sussed out though? No one ever sussed the Basham and O'Connell overlapping centre back conundrum.

If memory serves, once the bigger teams sussed that pressing our FB's deep into our half (basically the 2nd half of the first PL season), we didn't really have an alternative consistent way of building attacks. So while we may have not lost that many games, we stopped winning as many.

 

[Geordie Blade]

We also had a bit of luck. Fine margins and all that. Barely any injuries at all. A top goalkeeper.

We won a fair few games 1-0 that could easily have gone the other way, and we would have still thought that, say, 13th place would have been a brilliant season.

I remember us being brilliant going forward that season, but yet we only scored 8 goals more that season than we've scored so far this season (and don't forget that We'Re ThE wOrSt TeAm EvEr right now).

Another huge difference is the pace of the play. Watch one of the full 2019/20 games back now, and it's staggering how fast we are, both with and without the ball. This season (and in 2020/21), it's painfully pedestrian. I don't know whether that's down to other teams being able to dictate the pace, or we just don't have the bravery.

 

[Harry's Game]

If memory serves, once the bigger teams sussed than pressing our FB's deep into our half (basically the 2nd half of the first PL season), we didn't really have an alternative consistent way of building attacks. So while we may have not lost that many games, we stopped winning as many.

Liverpool away was the first time

 

[SUFC Guy]

It was both that really worked, but......

Wilder would get 1 more year at this

Half the squad will change this season and add new players to these:

Arblaster
Brooks
Bogle
Robinson
Trusty
Osborne
Hamer
Davies
Osula
Jebbinson
Basham
Baldock
Egan
RND
McBurnie (poss)

I may have missed a few.


These are either returning loans or can F off

McAtee
Diaz
Holgate
Archer


Souza
Anel
Traorre
Larouci
Fodders
Grbic
Davies
Norwood
Slimane
Brewster


Starting 11 for next season and we need additions!

A. Davies

Baldock Egan Robinson

Bogle Arblaster Hamer Brooks RND

Jebbison Osula


I would say that we need at least 1 additional player for each position and 2 keepers.

 

[Working Class Hero]

If memory serves, once the bigger teams sussed that pressing our FB's deep into our half (basically the 2nd half of the first PL season), we didn't really have an alternative consistent way of building attacks. So while we may have not lost that many games, we stopped winning as many.

I've seen that said before but it's a bit of a myth. In the 8 games before COVID we'd won 4 and drawn 2, only losing to Man City and Liverpool away.

If that form had carried right through the season, we'd have finished third.

 

[Working Class Hero]

I need to stop opening threads about the 19/20 season, as they just make me feel sad.

Why oh why did the world have to go to shit THAT particular year?

 

[Badger Blade]

Both.

That system with different personnel wouldn't have worked and likewise those personnel playing 4231 or any other system would have been lambs to the slaughter - we saw that when Jokanovic came in.

All centred on hard work at the back and being efficient at the other end. If we'd conceded 20 fewer goals this season, we could be within reach of safety but it boils down to attitude at the end of the day. CWAK's team that went to the top were limited in ability as individuals but it had leaders and blokes willing to work hard for each other whereas the mob we have now don't and that can't be coached into people.

The same process should apply again if we have a rebuild like we did in League One then we can properly carve niches for people and give them a role they understand. Chris Basham went from being an average League One centre back to being a geniune Premier League defender. Paul Coutts could have played Premier League football in his dinner suit if he'd not been crocked at Burton.

Could be any system as long as its one that suits the players we have but all starts with having a base of players who'll be here next season, knowing what they can do, what they can't and building it from there.

 

[BettingBlade]

The squad just isn’t good enough for this level. Players that were brought in 5 years ago as 2nd and 3rd choice are now seen as regular starters. We can talk all day about systems and confidence and outside factors but the bottom line is the squad is absolutely miles off where it should be.

If we’d have continued to build on that trajectory of 19/20, players like Wes, Ben Osborn, Jack Robinson etc. wouldn’t even be contracted to the club anymore.

Robinson in particular was brought in as cover for JOC and only became a regular starter because we couldnt afford to replace JOC.

This isn’t a dig at these players as much as it may sound like one and I think Robinson has improved a great deal while he’s played for us but the reality is, none of them were ever brought in as first teamers.

Couple that with the drop off in performance of the stalwarts of that season and further inadequate replacements and this is what you’re left with. The circumstances of the most recent promotion felt like a necessity rather than a celebration of success. I would imagine there was a collective sigh of relief behind the scenes last May as the Premier League funds secured the immediate future of the club rather than being invested in building a squad capable of competing at the top level.

 

[Ron_Justice]

Both.

That system with different personnel wouldn't have worked and likewise those personnel playing 4231 or any other system would have been lambs to the slaughter - we saw that when Jokanovic came in.

All centred on hard work at the back and being efficient at the other end. If we'd conceded 20 fewer goals this season, we could be within reach of safety but it boils down to attitude at the end of the day. CWAK's team that went to the top were limited in ability as individuals but it had leaders and blokes willing to work hard for each other whereas the mob we have now don't and that can't be coached into people.

The same process should apply again if we have a rebuild like we did in League One then we can properly carve niches for people and give them a role they understand. Chris Basham went from being an average League One centre back to being a geniune Premier League defender. Paul Coutts could have played Premier League football in his dinner suit if he'd not been crocked at Burton.

Could be any system as long as its one that suits the players we have but all starts with having a base of players who'll be here next season, knowing what they can do, what they can't and building it from there.

Yep agree and I don't think a single season, in any league, is long enough to 'carve niches' and develop enough tactical habits to ensure we're able to be greater than the sum of our parts.

 

[Ron_Justice]

The squad just isn’t good enough for this level. Players that were brought in 5 years ago as 2nd and 3rd choice are now seen as regular starters. We can talk all day about systems and confidence and outside factors but the bottom line is the squad is absolutely miles off where it should be.

If we’d have continued to build on that trajectory of 19/20, players like Wes, Ben Osborn, Jack Robinson etc. wouldn’t even be contracted to the club anymore.

Robinson in particular was brought in as cover for JOC and only became a regular starter because we couldnt afford to replace JOC.

This isn’t a dig at these players as much as it may sound like one and I think Robinson has improved a great deal while he’s played for us but the reality is, none of them were ever brought in as first teamers.

Couple that with the drop off in performance of the stalwarts of that season and further inadequate replacements and this is what you’re left with. The circumstances of the most recent promotion felt like a necessity rather than a celebration of success. I would imagine there was a collective sigh of relief behind the scenes last May as the Premier League funds secured the immediate future of the club rather than being invested in building a squad capable of competing at the top level.

But would players, of the same technical ability and fitness levels, but with the right 'attitude' be in a better place? I guess that's the point of the thread. We are where we are regarding the finances of the club. So given that, can we assemble another rag tag bunch with the right personality attributes to sustain us in the top flight, in one season / three transfer windows?

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

That 1st CWAK season in the PL was probably the high watermark for me as a Blade and a return to the Championship has got me wondering; even with decent summer recruitment, can we go again, as soon as next year?

Last time we went up and actually made a fist of it, we did it on the back of a 3 year re-build. 3 years of bringing in players to suit a novel system but also, and with one eye on CW's recent comments about certain unnamed players, players of a certain character.

I wonder, without the surprise of the Overlappers (because I doubt there's another unique way of playing waiting to be discovered), would the right characters, brought together via a modest budget, be enough to fare better in the PL than this season?

Personally, I'm not sure a year in the Championship is long enough to build a group, on a budget, that has a strong enough identity. To develop a squad that's so aligned with each other, tactically, that they can play on instinct, without fear, and be greater than the sum of the parts.

So what do we think, last time around what was more important? Was it The System or the Personnel? Is the conversation around 'right type' too overblown or do we need to pay special attention to the characters of the personnel, given we're going to working with a modest budget by todays standards?

For me it was a combination of the system, recruiting players with the correct mindset, and the all important key ingredients of momentum and fan power.

You'll notice none of us were crying about our post-ptomotion transfer window after the 18/19 promotion. There was no selling of our key players after the 18/19 season, just what on paper appeared to be decent recruitment by our standards.

In 19/20 the fans were excited, proud as punch and became a true 12th man. People talk about "losing the dressing room" as an untenable managerial position.. to me "losing the fans" as the Prince did last Summer is just as bad and definitely can hinder performances.

In terms of 20/21 season, we were sussed for our total lack of pace. Add to that O'Connel injury, Ramsdale playing like Grbic and the Brewster debacle and no fans.. it was a recipe for disaster.

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

You have to remember also, that aside from Liverpool, the rest of the prem were very average that year.

Our success that season was built on a very tight defence (4th best defence in the league), we had the joint 5th worst attack.

 

[Mattblade68]

it was the rules, also VAR ( poor sides could get away with more desperate defending challenges then), which did not levitate to end to end basketball football and did not enable the other teams to play the style they play today., also you could have maybe 60-70 mins of football - now 90- 115 mins. Go back to rules back then and we would win more games even with the current team.

 

[shorehamview]

The problems we had when bringing a lot of players was they were seen as backup to the starting eleven rather than upgrades, or even equals. They came in as second best options for most of the positions, and we wasted a lot of money.