3 wins from 10 games

[Akrotiri_Blades]

I think it’s a little harsh to pick on last night as a day to pick fault with Wilder.

On one hand I’m not happy he’s effectively doubled down on 4-4-2. After Saturday we’d convinced ourselves that Bamford as a 10 was the new thing and that wingers being used conventionally was another. In the end it feels like he’s doubled down but now has access to some of he injured players.

That being said, “the Referee’s a wanker” has never been more apt. The fact he’s managed to send off three of our players in two games whilst simultaneously missing red card offenses by the opposition in each game invites investigation. Unconscious bias? Incompetence? Cheating? Whichever you file it under its extremely poor and influenced the result both times.

In the end we were spirited and whilst you can pick fault with the winner, fact is tired minds and tired bodies just don’t function as optimally.

It does make Bristol City an important game to take points from.

It’s frustrating the momentum of Saturday stalled due to “the Bastard in the black” but that doesn’t ignore the overall pattern. It’s 40% loss rate and only a 30% win rate. Overall that’s not good enough especially when you supposedly have a top 10 budget even if the make up is unbalanced.

Plus there’s the fact that losses against Pompey mean unlikely wins against the likes of West Ham, Southampton, Millwall, Burnley etc would be needed to offset.

Another reason for 4-3-3 would be the goals from distance we are conceding. Surely having an extra body in there increases the chances of closing down opposition players in that 20-25 yard position that cost us against Stoke City and Portsmouth.

Definitely hasn't helped the cause, because of the level we are at out of the 3 Unconscious bias? Incompetence? Cheating? - Unconscious bias and Incompetence are more likely

1) Unconscious bias? - I can see that, Wilder is similar to Warnock in the doesn't exactly warm himself to officials/be able to keep his gob shut
2) Incompetence - Yes in a way, sometimes with blades specs on it could go either way but the strange one for me, last night was the time it took for him to decide he was going to give Choudhury a yellow card, the assistant didn't have the angle, he was influenced by the Portsmouth players who surrounded him and celebrated with a high 5 when he was sent off He has the bollocks to issue a yellow card however taking a step back, Choudhury committed 2 fouls and received a yellow for each, the first I can agree on however there was a clear shirt pull on Choudhury in the initial coming together of the players before the yellow card foul in that incident so realistically shouldn't have even got that far but the 2nd no way on earth is that a yellow card in it's own right.

 

[Champagneblade]

Definitely hasn't helped the cause, because of the level we are at out of the 3 Unconscious bias? Incompetence? Cheating? - Unconscious bias and Incompetence are more likely

1) Unconscious bias? - I can see that, Wilder is similar to Warnock in the doesn't exactly warm himself to officials/be able to keep his gob shut
2) Incompetence - Yes in a way, sometimes with blades specs on it could go either way but the strange one for me, last night was the time it took for him to decide he was going to give Choudhury a yellow card, the assistant didn't have the angle, he was influenced by the Portsmouth players who surrounded him and celebrated with a high 5 when he was sent off He has the bollocks to issue a yellow card however taking a step back, Choudhury committed 2 fouls and received a yellow for each, the first I can agree on however there was a clear shirt pull on Choudhury in the initial coming together of the players before the yellow card foul in that incident so realistically shouldn't have even got that far but the 2nd no way on earth is that a yellow card in it's own right.

I think this is where, and I know it’s very cliche, “they don’t understand the game”.

Me standing my ground and someone running into me isn’t a body check. Me moving intentionally in his way is. I didn’t see the former though I know it gets given as a foul but unless Choudhury gains the ability to evaporate into thin air then I don’t know how he avoids that scenario.

 

[Nedski]

I know exactly what you mean.

I don't actually think Langford has a bias. Although he probably doesn't like Wilder after the Charlton game so could be a slight bit there. I just think he's a poor ref.
Well at least on those two matches. That is the investigation for me. Why was his overall performance poor and how often is he missing big moments/decisions and getting the interpretation wrong.

I know as fans we have banged on about Donovan starting in recent weeks but I do think that BBD despite having not a bad game vs Lincoln needs to be benched in the next game. He hasn't impressed since coming back yet.
It would be nice to see pace down both wings with Chong and Donovan and them switching too.

Chong on the left and Donovan on the right. BBD at home watching from the sofa.

Last night Chong had the ability to beat his man but can't cross with his right foot so the majority of his crosses were poor. Portsmouth looked dangerous every time they headed for the byline and smashed a low cross in but our inverted wingers don't allow us to do that. The fact we're playing 442 also nullifies a lot of our wing play because they can't actually play as wingers, and Chong has to be mindful he's got the worst RB in the league behind him who needs all the help he can get.

 

[FTPE]

Yep. Unless you didn’t watch the game?

You HAVE TO be on the wind up

 

[Nedski]

I think this is where, and I know it’s very cliche, “they don’t understand the game”.

Me standing my ground and someone running into me isn’t a body check. Me moving intentionally in his way is. I didn’t see the former though I know it gets given as a foul but unless Choudhury gains the ability to evaporate into thin air then I don’t know how he avoids that scenario.

He avoids it by not being a twat with the first yellow which was completely avoidable. Again the ref didn't help as it was probably a foul on Choudhury to begin with, but a complete lack of discipline means he dives in to get a guaranteed yellow. Should've been hooked at that point as they were clearly going to target him even more considering how bad he is.

 

[Champagneblade]

He avoids it by not being a twat with the first yellow which was completely avoidable. Again the ref didn't help as it was probably a foul on Choudhury to begin with, but a complete lack of discipline means he dives in to get a guaranteed yellow. Should've been hooked at that point as they were clearly going to target him even more considering how bad he is.

I suppose the defence to that is if you bring a knife to a gun fight enough times you can’t complain if you eventually come off worse.

If I can offer a technical term; he’s been “torn a new arsehole” on multiple occasions so far playing out of position at right back. The only surprise really is that it took this long for him to attract a red.

 

[jt64]

Not defending Wilder, but the reason why is that we don't have a pot to piss in, and they were all free (Rothwell nominal fee). None of them, apart from Campbell, are contracted to us beyond next summer. This looks good on the books with no hefty contracts weighing us down and is exactly what you'd expect of the yanks as they prepare to sell the club to the next clown.

I am not sure how bringing in someone on a free, paying them a huge amount for what they can actually do on the pitch, then letting them go twelve months later "looks good on the books". A "hefty contract" is a thing called an "asset" which can be exchanged for this thing called "money". Both of which look good on the books.

Now of course if said hefty contracts are given to aging shit players on high wages that nobody else would touch, then yes, that is problem

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

I think this is where, and I know it’s very cliche, “they don’t understand the game”.

Me standing my ground and someone running into me isn’t a body check. Me moving intentionally in his way is. I didn’t see the former though I know it gets given as a foul but unless Choudhury gains the ability to evaporate into thin air then I don’t know how he avoids that scenario.

It's a murky area because it comes down to the principle of intention.

Nothing else in the game of football has to be intentional so why should fouls have to be intentional?

If a striker blasts the ball at a defender and it hits him and goes out for a corner then a corner is given.

The referee doesn't say, "Well, the defender couldn't possibly have got out of the way so it's not a corner. Goal kick".

Same thing goes for throw ins, penalties, own goals and all the rest of it.

 

[TopBoy]

I am not sure how bringing in someone on a free, paying them a huge amount for what they can actually do on the pitch, then letting them go twelve months later "looks good on the books". A "hefty contract" is a thing called an "asset" which can be exchanged for this thing called "money". Both of which look good on the books.

Now of course if said hefty contracts are given to aging shit players on high wages that nobody else would touch, then yes, that is problem

It certainly looks better for potential sellers if the club is not saddled with a load of hefty contracts for players they can't shift (think McGuinness, Shackleton etc.) Free signings, whatever their weekly wage is, do not appear in the balance books for the next 3-4 years; hence, we look more attractive.

 

[Champagneblade]

It's a murky area because it comes down to the principle of intention.

Nothing else in the game of football has to be intentional so why should fouls have to be intentional?

If a striker blasts the ball at a defender and it hits him and goes out for a corner then a corner is given.

The referee doesn't say, "Well, the defender couldn't possibly have got out of the way so it's not a corner. Goal kick".

Same thing goes for throw ins, penalties, own goals and all the rest of it.

So give a foul. But don’t book him for it. There has to be a difference in me cynically running across someone’s path to block and then running into the space I occupy from point blank range and me not being able to teleport.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

So give a foul. But don’t book him for it. There has to be a difference in me cynically running across someone’s path to block and then running into the space I occupy from point blank range and me not being able to teleport.

I think it was a foul but he didn't have to show him a second yellow card for it.

Choudhury was in a position where you either have to stand your ground and get the ball or go with him.

He did neither.

But getting the ball doesn't mean something isn't a foul either.

It shows that referees have an impossible job at times.

 

[jack's the lad]

Wilders a dinosaur his tactics are shocking the sooner we get rid the better ok we showed balls getting back into the game but unfortunately we're just papering over the cracks we really aren't a good watch

 

[Blacksea]

I think it’s a little harsh to pick on last night as a day to pick fault with Wilder.

On one hand I’m not happy he’s effectively doubled down on 4-4-2. After Saturday we’d convinced ourselves that Bamford as a 10 was the new thing and that wingers being used conventionally was another. In the end it feels like he’s doubled down but now has access to some of he injured players.

That being said, “the Referee’s a wanker” has never been more apt. The fact he’s managed to send off three of our players in two games whilst simultaneously missing red card offenses by the opposition in each game invites investigation. Unconscious bias? Incompetence? Cheating? Whichever you file it under its extremely poor and influenced the result both times.

In the end we were spirited and whilst you can pick fault with the winner, fact is tired minds and tired bodies just don’t function as optimally.

It does make Bristol City an important game to take points from.

It’s frustrating the momentum of Saturday stalled due to “the Bastard in the black” but that doesn’t ignore the overall pattern. It’s 40% loss rate and only a 30% win rate. Overall that’s not good enough especially when you supposedly have a top 10 budget even if the make up is unbalanced.

Plus there’s the fact that losses against Pompey mean unlikely wins against the likes of West Ham, Southampton, Millwall, Burnley etc would be needed to offset.

Another reason for 4-3-3 would be the goals from distance we are conceding. Surely having an extra body in there increases the chances of closing down opposition players in that 20-25 yard position that cost us against Stoke City and Portsmouth.

Good points,I can see a few instances where we might go 3/4 games without a win,if this happens it needs to be balanced out by back to back wins,or an unbeaten run or it's leaving precious little leeway to get up to 50 point minimum[
QUOTE="Champagneblade, post: 6511744, member: 3048"]
I suppose the defence to that is if you bring a knife to a gun fight enough times you can’t complain if you eventually come off worse.

If I can offer a technical term; he’s been “torn a new arsehole” on multiple occasions so far playing out of position at right back. The only surprise really is that it took this long for him to attract a red.
[/QUOTE]
Only my personal opinion,but maybe Portsmouth plan was to target Choudhury with the aim of getting the result that happened,that kid was involved both times,so our opposition can see where the weak spot is and keep applying pressure on him,either they get cards,or they get one on ones with pace against a player who is not able to deal with it

 

[Akrotiri_Blades]

I think it was a foul but he didn't have to show him a second yellow card for it.

Choudhury was in a position where you either have to stand your ground and get the ball or go with him.

He did neither.

But getting the ball doesn't mean something isn't a foul either.

It shows that referees have an impossible job at times.

You do have football contact and that is in the laws of the game where a natural coming together of players happen and as long as it wasn't reckless or using excessive force wouldn't warrant a card. This is exactly what has happened here, although Choudhury will get the automatic 1 match ban for 2 yellows without appeal, it could be worse least there will be an enforced change in there.

I have looked at it a few times to try and work it out, the referee takes 11 seconds from when he blows his whistle until the point of when he issues the 2nd yellow (highly unusual). There are approx 6 Portsmouth players that he has either walked past or are have ran over such as Regan Poole who has his arms out and is sprinting behind, clearly shouting. The only thing which isn't on camera for the full part is Choudhury, I don't know on the giving of that free kick and in the 11 seconds has he said or gestured something and the 2nd yellow is actually for that and not for the free kick. Although I don't like American Football, the one thing I do like is the referee explaining the reason for the decision in real time. If the referee spouts out, Choudhury's 2nd yellow was for a sarcastic gesture like a handclap or something then the blame shift would be on Choudhury but if the referee said it was for the free kick he had given because he thought it was reckless, there would be more questions raised.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

You do have football contact and that is in the laws of the game where a natural coming together of players happen and as long as it wasn't reckless or using excessive force wouldn't warrant a card. This is exactly what has happened here, although Choudhury will get the automatic 1 match ban for 2 yellows without appeal, it could be worse least there will be an enforced change in there.

I have looked at it a few times to try and work it out, the referee takes 11 seconds from when he blows his whistle until the point of when he issues the 2nd yellow (highly unusual). There are approx 6 Portsmouth players that he has either walked past or are have ran over such as Regan Poole who has his arms out and is sprinting behind, clearly shouting. The only thing which isn't on camera for the full part is Choudhury, I don't know on the giving of that free kick and in the 11 seconds has he said or gestured something and the 2nd yellow is actually for that and not for the free kick. Although I don't like American Football, the one thing I do like is the referee explaining the reason for the decision in real time. If the referee spouts out, Choudhury's 2nd yellow was for a sarcastic gesture like a handclap or something then the blame shift would be on Choudhury but if the referee said it was for the free kick he had given because he thought it was reckless, there would be more questions raised.

Not really sure about any of that mate.

Choudhury's first booking annoyed me more than the sending off.

A hopeless, late challenge that no professional footballer should ever be making.

After that he was already on thin ice.

 

[Akrotiri_Blades]

Not really sure about any of that mate.

Choudhury's first booking annoyed me more than the sending off.

A hopeless, late challenge that no professional footballer should ever be making.

After that he was already on thin ice.

The first was due to frustration after having his shirt pulled and then lunged in, agreed a pro-footballer should be more level headed and that was a yellow card if you are giving the free kick for the lunge. However the 2nd was only his 2nd foul of the match, at any level of football grassroots right through the pyramid there is a "stepped approach" and it was no way a yellow card for stopping a promising attack or it wasn't a reckless challenge like his 1st one was. He should have been given a visible clear warning where it looks clear that the referee is saying watch yourself after that last one. If he is playing right, yellow cards should have been issued to the Portsmouth players asking for a 2nd yellow too, there was at least 1 or 2 in there.

The below is a blog from a Dutch referee that explains the stepped approach well.

https://www.dutchreferee.com/stepped-approach-for-referees-in-managing-players/

The idea is there is more structure, to management of players and only use the cards when you need too and saves a referee from getting card happy.

 

[Manwell Pablo]

He avoids it by not being a twat with the first yellow which was completely avoidable. Again the ref didn't help as it was probably a foul on Choudhury to begin with, but a complete lack of discipline means he dives in to get a guaranteed yellow. Should've been hooked at that point as they were clearly going to target him even more considering how bad he is.

For what it's worth from a completly netural pov thought the ref was poor last night.

It's the standard Hamza reaction to not getting a free kick he thought he should have had though, when the whistle didn't go and Portsmouth regained possesion I knew it was coming straight away. Too old to change his ways now. Even if it means he's on a yellow with 65 -70 minutes left on the clock playing at right back.

 

[parkblade]

My worry is looking at the sides below us in the league, there are a few I don’t expect to stay down there (Norwich, Wrexham, Burnley, Derby) and if we don’t start getting wins on the board more frequently, we could be in the midst of a relegation dog fight come Christmas.

Ive been going to the lane since the late 60s, so I guess could say I've seen quite a few relegation's. As early as it is I would say now we are watching a relegation team in waiting.

 

[ancientblade]

the sad fact about all this is that were going nowhere under wilder mk3 hes had his best days although more than likely we wont go down the board really have to make a decision in may next year we need a new direction and still think carrick would be a good choice once manure have sacked him

 

[ThatJa]

My worry is looking at the sides below us in the league, there are a few I don’t expect to stay down there (Norwich, Wrexham, Burnley, Derby) and if we don’t start getting wins on the board more frequently, we could be in the midst of a relegation dog fight come Christmas.

Derby are toast this year.