The Domestic Cups

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DerbyStar

DerbyStar

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How to solve a problem like: The FA Cup and The League (Carling, Worthington, Carabao, whatever) Cup.

Lot of debate going on at the moment about the FA Cup in particular and it seems the League Cup is getting dragged into it by circumstance. Lots of Premier League affiliated pundits and a few managers (I'm looking at you Jurgen and Pep) seem to want replays scrapped. And in Pep and Lineker's case to scrap the League Cup entirely. The cups give so much revenue to the smaller clubs, and in rare cases it even gives them the funds needed to allow them to survive.

I stand in the camp of 'Leave the League Cup alone, and give bigger rewards for the FA Cup'. The League Cup is the secondary domestic trophy, always has been. It's a chance to blood some youngsters who wouldn't otherwise get first team football, and it's a chance for lower league fans and players to visit PL grounds (even if most play their reserves in the early rounds). It's pocket change to us PL teams but to the lower league teams it's still revenue and it's much needed. A trip to Wembley for the finalist and a cup in the trophy cabinet. Can't dress it up as anything else, frankly, but I still wouldn't mind winning it. Try telling Bradford and Birmingham fans the League Cup doesn't mean anything.
On the FA Cup it is dwindling slightly and has been for a while but the rewards just don't match up to those of the PL. Simple solutions could be as follows: sponsorship... easy, or get each PL team to chuck a %age of their TV money into the coffers each year for Cup rewards to make it more enticing financially. And the creme de la creme as far as I'm concerned - a play off for the winner/runner up with the 4th place team in the Prem for a place in the Champions League. If the FA want it to survive as we all do they are going to have to smarten up their ideas and make it more enticing for the bigger fish (such as ourselves now I hasten to add). It's got to now be more than just a 'cup' as money rules everything and nothing can touch the PL money.

The cup runs and replays mean so much to so many clubs and so many people. For me they helped brighten our dark League One days and gave us some hope that we weren't being forgotten. They meant a hell of a lot and are some of my favourite memories as a Blade. Those moments for the likes of us are quite frequent (I mean the trips to Wembley, playing the likes of Spurs etc) - but to some clubs who we were tussling it our with on a weekly basis it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's everything to them, gives them memories to last for a lifetime and tell their kids and grandkids about - why would anyone want to scrap that?

So with all respect Jurgen, Pep, Gary, Samantha Quek and the rest who think we should scrap our League Cup, or remove the replays. Fuck off.
 

RammyBlade said:
Love the idea of winners/runners up having a play off match against the 4th placed club for a Champions league place .
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I can't see much opposition to it any more, I'm struggling to see a downside.

Maybe there would have been before, when there was the guaranteed 'big 4' of Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool - but now there's a 'top 6' as they like to call it, call it 7 with Leicester, 5 of them know they could easily end up outside the top 4 and missing out on that lucrative CL money they crave. They'd love insurance to take another shot at it. It would breathe new life into the cup, no doubt about it.
 
DerbyStar said:
I can't see much opposition to it any more, I'm struggling to see a downside.

Maybe there would have been before, when there was the guaranteed 'big 4' of Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool - but now there's a 'top 6' as they like to call it, call it 7 with Leicester, 5 of them know they could easily end up outside the top 4 and missing out on that lucrative CL money they crave. They'd love insurance to take another shot at it. It would breathe new life into the cup, no doubt about it.
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You might not think the same way at the end of the season when we finish 4th
 
Brother-Leech said:
You might not think the same way at the end of the season when we finish 4th
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Yep and Arsenal win the cup and then turn us over in a one off match. it'll be like David and Goliath all over again but this time Goliath wins.
 
Whilever the prize money for winning the FA Cup £3.5m is only half of the prize money for finishing 17th in the EPL then it will continue to disregarded by the majority of EPL teams. The FA have allowed the competition to be so devalued that no-one wants to provide the significant funds that would reinvigorate the competition. Downgrading it to a week night competition just puts further nails into its coffin.

Can it be saved? highly unlikely as the money lies with the EPL and Richards and his cronies have no interest in its future as they continue to bend over to the top 6 fearing a break away European league so pressure will mount to accommodate the wishes of Klopp and Co. to further tinker with a once great competition. The very fact the final has recently been played at 5 o'clock on a league fixture day shows what they think of it.

Richards predecessor Scudamore was more interested in arranging for league games to be played in other countries as he looked to line his pockets and keep the EPL brand at the forefront of World football. The FA Cup is viewed as a minor inconvenience by the EPL mandarins, Club Owners and Chairman and sadly some managers like Klopp.

We all want a return to Saturday 3 pm fixtures, No VAR, Semi finals at neutral grounds and replays to be maintained but money talks and the FA Cup has been consigned to the dustbin by the EPL and failed badly by the FA its own organisation.

As for the League Cup its past its sell by date as the prize money is peanuts. If the Top 6 are so against it then they should be allowed to respectfully decline from entering the competition but in doing so it reduces the attraction of the competition significantly. Whatever happens money and the wishes of the powerful clubs will be the over riding factor in any decision making.
 
Addison said:
Whilever the prize money for winning the FA Cup £3.5m is only half of the prize money for finishing 17th in the EPL then it will continue to disregarded by the majority of EPL teams. The FA have allowed the competition to be so devalued that no-one wants to provide the significant funds that would reinvigorate the competition. Downgrading it to a week night competition just puts further nails into its coffin.

Can it be saved? highly unlikely as the money lies with the EPL and Richards and his cronies have no interest in its future as they continue to bend over to the top 6 fearing a break away European league so pressure will mount to accommodate the wishes of Klopp and Co. to further tinker with a once great competition. The very fact the final has recently been played at 5 o'clock on a league fixture day shows what they think of it.

Richards predecessor Scudamore was more interested in arranging for league games to be played in other countries as he looked to line his pockets and keep the EPL brand at the forefront of World football. The FA Cup is viewed as a minor inconvenience by the EPL mandarins, Club Owners and Chairman and sadly some managers like Klopp.

We all want a return to Saturday 3 pm fixtures, No VAR, Semi finals at neutral grounds and replays to be maintained but money talks and the FA Cup has been consigned to the dustbin by the EPL and failed badly by the FA its own organisation.

As for the League Cup its past its sell by date as the prize money is peanuts. If the Top 6 are so against it then they should be allowed to respectfully decline from entering the competition but in doing so it reduces the attraction of the competition significantly. Whatever happens money and the wishes of the powerful clubs will be the over riding factor in any decision making.
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Exactly this..pep and klopp want more champions league and more money for their greedy paymasters..basically Carlisle rochdale macclesfield etc fuck off..we don't give a fuck about you!
 
Klopp and Pep won’t even be living in this country in five years time but I will be and I’ll still be watching the FA Cup so fuck what they think and just leave the cups alone instead of fucking about and fucking about until it’s fucked.
 
Like most things in life....and particularly football, it comes down to money. Ultimately, the incentive to stay in the Premier League is far greater due to the financial benefits of success in those competitions. If the issue really was about fixture congestion and fatigue, then Klopp and Pep and all the other moaners would be lobbying UEFA to change the Champions League format. They of course wont do that.

Teams have been playing weaker sides in the cup competitions for years but never has a manager simply just not taken charge of the game. Given that Liverpool are already about a billion points clear, I think its an absolute disgrace that Klopp is planning to put his u23 coach in charge of the Shrewsbury replay. Its an insult, not only to the competition, but to Shrewsbury themselves. Its also an insult to his u23's. The whole point of making changes is to not only rest the first team players, but to give the younger players the opportunity of a real first-team experience. If he's just going to use his youth coaches, whats the point?

I notice how there is no complaining from these clubs to the EFL when they are allowing them to put their u23's in the EFL Trophy, a competition that limits the amount of changes league 1 and 2 sides can make for those games. I read somewhere that Shrewsbury have played the same amount of competitive games this season as Liverpool, although maybe not at the same intensity, theres not a chance that clubs from lower down the pyramid can afford to have the amount of players available to rotate than the top sides.

If they're really that bothered, why not spread either the 3rd or 4th round of the FA Cup over two weeks, that way half the Prem teams get a rest and the other half have their cup game. That leaves potentially two weeks for them to rest up some first teamers. It might also mean that the precious little souls might actually be able to compete in a cup game for once.
 
Put all the matches from quarter final onwards at a neautral ground and get rid of replays as they are a waste.
 
Im all for pumpimg more money into the FA cup

but the league cup is the fairs cup of England needs shelving
gates of 5000 or under show its lack of appeal and 10 team changes is now the norm , its a farse

its just a shiny trophy these days so one of the top 6 can slightly justify spending so much

and dont get me started on the johnstone paint under 23 assistance cup
 
FallowfieldBlade said:
Put all the matches from quarter final onwards at a neautral ground and get rid of replays as they are a waste.
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They aren't a waste to the likes of Shrewsbury though are they? That replay will allow them the funds to improve their facilities.
 
Addison said:
Whilever the prize money for winning the FA Cup £3.5m is only half of the prize money for finishing 17th in the EPL then it will continue to disregarded by the majority of EPL teams. The FA have allowed the competition to be so devalued that no-one wants to provide the significant funds that would reinvigorate the competition. Downgrading it to a week night competition just puts further nails into its coffin.

Can it be saved? highly unlikely as the money lies with the EPL and Richards and his cronies have no interest in its future as they continue to bend over to the top 6 fearing a break away European league so pressure will mount to accommodate the wishes of Klopp and Co. to further tinker with a once great competition. The very fact the final has recently been played at 5 o'clock on a league fixture day shows what they think of it
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But as I've suggested the FA Cup winner/runner up depending on the winner being in the top 4 already, facing the 4th place PL team in a CL place play off surely would be agreed with by every Prem team. Like I said, it's not a top 4 anymore is it?
 

I worry that chasing the former glory of the cups might be a dead end. Even when we were in League One we were saying the league is more important, and now we're Prem the league is still more important. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. The league is by far the bulk of games and the high rewards means every game matters.

There's so much football to watch now and the excitement of drawing a team that's on telly every week has lessened with that. It might be time to accept that things have moved on from. It's sad, but it might be for the best.
 
Scrap the Auto Windscreens, limit the Milk Cup to teams outside the Premier League. Job done
 
I wouldn't scrap the League Cup but I would reform it:-

a) Don't include teams that have qualified for Europe. It's mainly them who are affected by fixture congestion. They only play their reserves/kids in the first few rounds anyway then turn up to the party later on to pinch the trophy and a European place.
b) Seed all the remaining clubs from the start based on league position. The team that is seeded lower always plays at home up to the Quarter Final.

This would mean that teams outside the "Big 7" (yes, that might include us now) have a good chance of reaching a Wembley final, winning a trophy and qualifying for Europe.
Teams lower than the pecking order will have an enhanced chance of progressing and interesting David/Goliath ties would be more common.
 
DerbyStar said:
They aren't a waste to the likes of Shrewsbury though are they? That replay will allow them the funds to improve their facilities.
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So you think a lower league team should be surviving on maybe getting an away draw at a big team in the cup which is just ridiculous.

If you have straight to extra time or penalties you will get more lower league teams in the later rounds as they would have a far better chance than in a 2 legged match.

If more lower league teams are getting through they will have a bigger chance playing in the games that help the finances.
 
FallowfieldBlade said:
So you think a lower league team should be surviving on maybe getting an away draw at a big team in the cup which is just ridiculous.

If you have straight to extra time or penalties you will get more lower league teams in the later rounds as they would have a far better chance than in a 2 legged match.

If more lower league teams are getting through they will have a bigger chance playing in the games that help the finances.
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Is that what I said?
Do you want them to go to wall instead?

Some clubs end up in financial difficulty through all sorts of reasons - dodgy owners, mismanaged finances dwindling gates, a period of poor results/relegation etc. When they can't make ends meet with player sales (because they have none worth anything) sometimes Cup runs and replays are the way they make money. Shrewsbury will make much more from a trip to Anfield than if they'd won in ET then drawn Reading/Cardiff at home. Get with it.

You'd think our fans would be more understanding of the difficulties these clubs face, we were in the same pool as them for 6 years.
 
Sothall_Blade said:
I wouldn't scrap the League Cup but I would reform it:-

a) Don't include teams that have qualified for Europe. It's mainly them who are affected by fixture congestion. They only play their reserves/kids in the first few rounds anyway then turn up to the party later on to pinch the trophy and a European place.
b) Seed all the remaining clubs from the start based on league position. The team that is seeded lower always plays at home up to the Quarter Final.

This would mean that teams outside the "Big 7" (yes, that might include us now) have a good chance of reaching a Wembley final, winning a trophy and qualifying for Europe.
Teams lower than the pecking order will have an enhanced chance of progressing and interesting David/Goliath ties would be more common.
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I suspect as soon as that happened UEFA would say that the winners can’t have a Europa League place.
 
Part of the issue is the Agenda of the World Club Cup competition.

It's a piece of shit trophy that most fans hold no candle to whatsoever.

The away game to Shrewsbury, was probably more of a challenge than the games they jetted the other side of the world for.
 
There's nothing to be made by lower league clubs from the League Cup as there's barely any prize money. They'd need a massive run like Burton Albion last year to make anything from it.

It's simply an excuse to give squad players a run out and everyone knows it.

As Reading made 11 changes last Saturday, so is the FA Cup for that matter, but they can just bin the one if they like. Makes no difference to me.

However, if the League Cup is abolished, as I think it should be, all previous winners should have that trophy stripped from their honours board
 
There are only 3 competitions that can be won every season for the vast majority of teams. Why take one of them away? That's taking 33% of the possible glory away from every club, player and fan in football.

Football does not revolve around the top 6 teams, and I couldn't care less if the play "too many games", it's such a selfish view. The early rounds of the cup have always seen weaker teams fielded, and it always will. When it starts to get interesting most teams play at full strength. What's the issue? Leave the cups alone.
 
DerbyStar said:
Is that what I said?
Do you want them to go to wall instead?

Some clubs end up in financial difficulty through all sorts of reasons - dodgy owners, mismanaged finances dwindling gates, a period of poor results/relegation etc. When they can't make ends meet with player sales (because they have none worth anything) sometimes Cup runs and replays are the way they make money. Shrewsbury will make much more from a trip to Anfield than if they'd won in ET then drawn Reading/Cardiff at home. Get with it.

You'd think our fans would be more understanding of the difficulties these clubs face, we were in the same pool as them for 6 years.
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No but if there are more replays there will be far more league 1&2 teams getting to the 4th/5th round as there way more likely to beat a team on penalties than replays
 
FallowfieldBlade said:
No but if there are more replays there will be far more league 1&2 teams getting to the 4th/5th round as there way more likely to beat a team on penalties than replays
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You've not read what I've just said have you?
 
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