View From Oldham

[Roygbiv]

Sound so much like us

https://roysviewfrom.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/view-from-oldham-3/

 

[Harry's Game]

Two founder members of the Premier League playing here...

...depressing isn't it?

 

[CarlingBlade]

“It was shit again, wish they’d fuck off with this style of tippy tappy sidewards shite. No attacking intent whatsoever.”

Is that not what's called modern football, everyone wants to be Barcelona!

 

[Kenilworth]

“It was shit again, wish they’d fuck off with this style of tippy tappy sidewards shite. No attacking intent whatsoever.”

Is that not what's called modern football, everyone wants to be Barcelona!

It's just as though they go for their UEFA A badge and get told that there is only one successful style of football but then none of them realise that the particular style of football is suited to World Class players (or top tier players). It's formulaic at best and utterly clueless and arrogant besides that.

The guys that set the curriculum have no idea about the Clog Dance of the third division. It doesn't compute because there is such a lack of physical contact in the top tiers (interpretations of the laws have seen to its decline as the teams with the small, skilful players have lobbied for this to be all but outlawed).

This propensity for young coaches (and those older ones that feel they are "progressive") is to believe there is only one way to play. What that does is play into the top clubs hands in two ways. 1. If a top team plays a lower level team in a cup competition and they both play the passing game it's almost inevitable that the top team will prevail as their superior quality will make the difference, and 2. If there is a player that shows the ability to cope better with this short passing, side ways style, the top teams adopt, then they will be snapped up, ready prepared for the top leagues. The coaching courses teach the way in which football is played at the top level. That's why you see the likes of Weir, Dunn, Johnson - and Adkins think they have to play that way in the third tier. The more canny managers would aspire to that but have a dose of reality in that the style you play has to suit a) the ability of the players you have, and b) the opposition you have to overcome to achieve a promotion - if that is a hard physical slog then you have to be equipped to handle that.

 

[BushBlade]

It's just as though they go for their UEFA A badge and get told that there is only one successful style of football but then none of them realise that the particular style of football is suited to World Class players (or top tier players). It's formulaic at best and utterly clueless and arrogant besides that.

The guys that set the curriculum have no idea about the Clog Dance of the third division. It doesn't compute because there is such a lack of physical contact in the top tiers (interpretations of the laws have seen to its decline as the teams with the small, skilful players have lobbied for this to be all but outlawed).

This propensity for young coaches (and those older ones that feel they are "progressive") is to believe there is only one way to play. What that does is play into the top clubs hands in two ways. 1. If a top team plays a lower level team in a cup competition and they both play the passing game it's almost inevitable that the top team will prevail as their superior quality will make the difference, and 2. If there is a player that shows the ability to cope better with this short passing, side ways style, the top teams adopt, then they will be snapped up, ready prepared for the top leagues. The coaching courses teach the way in which football is played at the top level. That's why you see the likes of Weir, Dunn, Johnson - and Adkins think they have to play that way in the third tier. The more canny managers would aspire to that but have a dose of reality in that the style you play has to suit a) the ability of the players you have, and b) the opposition you have to overcome to achieve a promotion - if that is a hard physical slog then you have to be equipped to handle that.

I haven't done any coaching courses so I can't comment on their content but if I was a manager starting my career I would do the coaching courses to get the badges I needed but I'd only use what I thought was relevant to the job I'd got.
Assuming I was a coach because I'd played at a decent level and probably an ex-pro, I'd have a reasonable idea what would work in the lower leagues. It's called 'thinking for yourself'. Surely people can still do that. If Dunn, or whoever, doesn't see that his tactics aren't working and doesn't know what to do, despite playing the game for about twenty years, he just isn't a manager and never will be, irrespective of whether he's been on courses or not.

 

[Silent Blade]

It's just as though they go for their UEFA A badge and get told that there is only one successful style of football but then none of them realise that the particular style of football is suited to World Class players (or top tier players). It's formulaic at best and utterly clueless and arrogant besides that.

The guys that set the curriculum have no idea about the Clog Dance of the third division. It doesn't compute because there is such a lack of physical contact in the top tiers (interpretations of the laws have seen to its decline as the teams with the small, skilful players have lobbied for this to be all but outlawed).

This propensity for young coaches (and those older ones that feel they are "progressive") is to believe there is only one way to play. What that does is play into the top clubs hands in two ways. 1. If a top team plays a lower level team in a cup competition and they both play the passing game it's almost inevitable that the top team will prevail as their superior quality will make the difference, and 2. If there is a player that shows the ability to cope better with this short passing, side ways style, the top teams adopt, then they will be snapped up, ready prepared for the top leagues. The coaching courses teach the way in which football is played at the top level. That's why you see the likes of Weir, Dunn, Johnson - and Adkins think they have to play that way in the third tier. The more canny managers would aspire to that but have a dose of reality in that the style you play has to suit a) the ability of the players you have, and b) the opposition you have to overcome to achieve a promotion - if that is a hard physical slog then you have to be equipped to handle that.

I remember Jack Charlton saying "to get out of the 3rd division you need a big centre back and a big striker in the team!"

 

[HillmortonBlade]

It's just as though they go for their UEFA A badge and get told that there is only one successful style of football but then none of them realise that the particular style of football is suited to World Class players (or top tier players). It's formulaic at best and utterly clueless and arrogant besides that.

The guys that set the curriculum have no idea about the Clog Dance of the third division. It doesn't compute because there is such a lack of physical contact in the top tiers (interpretations of the laws have seen to its decline as the teams with the small, skilful players have lobbied for this to be all but outlawed).

This propensity for young coaches (and those older ones that feel they are "progressive") is to believe there is only one way to play. What that does is play into the top clubs hands in two ways. 1. If a top team plays a lower level team in a cup competition and they both play the passing game it's almost inevitable that the top team will prevail as their superior quality will make the difference, and 2. If there is a player that shows the ability to cope better with this short passing, side ways style, the top teams adopt, then they will be snapped up, ready prepared for the top leagues. The coaching courses teach the way in which football is played at the top level. That's why you see the likes of Weir, Dunn, Johnson - and Adkins think they have to play that way in the third tier. The more canny managers would aspire to that but have a dose of reality in that the style you play has to suit a) the ability of the players you have, and b) the opposition you have to overcome to achieve a promotion - if that is a hard physical slog then you have to be equipped to handle that.

I've been lucky enough to get to watch HBJnr get coached for a couple of teams of good standing, as well as within the Academy network. As he's a keeper, I obviously take an interest in what goes on at the back and can say that the better qualified the coaches the greater the emphasis on ball retention (often to the detriment of attack). The lad has had it ground into him to pass out from the back, to the extent where the coach told me he would rather concede a goal and play "the right way". Of course, I am all for a bit of possession football and the coaching does make him a better, more rounded keeper but... there have been the times when the centre-forward will scream for the ball, Jnr launches a hoof that splits the defence, goal. It often depends on the quality of opposition. Which, if I try to be more succinct... looks like the future is tippy-tappy.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Watching us try to knock it around like a 10th rate Spain makes me nostalgic for the days when we used to whack it to Henderson quite frankly.

 

[stringjunior]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, substance over style at this level, with a bit of style thrown in occasionally

 

[Tyler Durden]

You've got to feel for the Oldham fans. I was in short trousers when they got relegated to this division and they've been here ever since. They haven't even had another relegation to make the misery more interesting.

Then again they play in blue and white and have an owl on their badge, so fuck em I suppose.

 

[BushBlade]

I've been lucky enough to get to watch HBJnr get coached for a couple of teams of good standing, as well as within the Academy network. As he's a keeper, I obviously take an interest in what goes on at the back and can say that the better qualified the coaches the greater the emphasis on ball retention (often to the detriment of attack). The lad has had it ground into him to pass out from the back, to the extent where the coach told me he would rather concede a goal and play "the right way". Of course, I am all for a bit of possession football and the coaching does make him a better, more rounded keeper but... there have been the times when the centre-forward will scream for the ball, Jnr launches a hoof that splits the defence, goal. It often depends on the quality of opposition. Which, if I try to be more succinct... looks like the future is tippy-tappy.

Isn't that the difference between coaching development players and managing a first team? Kids should be taught to play 'properly' because the priority of youth sides is to develop players, not necessarily win games, but at professional first team level results are paramount.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Isn't that the difference between coaching development players and managing a first team? Kids should be taught to play 'properly' because the priority of youth sides is to develop players, not necessarily win games, but at professional first team level results are paramount.

Absolutely, but maybe it's a reflection on the coaches I have had watched (and I've dabbled at a bit of coaching myself over the years), but at 15 HB Jnr is having this philosophy reinforced, almost to the exclusion of expecting results to be paramount. Thankfully, he also plays properly competitive Sunday league, but that's because he is not signed to an academy.

 

[Kenilworth]

Give em all a ribbon just for competing eh?

I'm all for retaining possession and skills but he point of the game is to score goals. The point of the crowd is to be entertained by goal mouth action. If that means a mixture of direct and possession play, that's fine. If that is just a possession game as that's what is expected by the arrogance of those that believe it is the purest form of the game then they can fuck right off.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Watching us try to knock it around like a 10th rate Spain makes me nostalgic for the days when we used to whack it to Henderson quite frankly.

Fleetwood.

Sometimes it doesn't work, but a lot of the time it does. It deprives the opposition of the ball, and tires them out mentally and physically. We should be able to play that way without fear - and I would say Adkins is willing and able to change up if it's not working.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Absolutely, but maybe it's a reflection on the coaches I have had watched (and I've dabbled at a bit of coaching myself over the years), but at 15 HB Jnr is having this philosophy reinforced, almost to the exclusion of expecting results to be paramount. Thankfully, he also plays properly competitive Sunday league, but that's because he is not signed to an academy.

Results should not be paramount till, well I'm not sure when but even in the u21s development is often more of a priority - as Morgan acknowledges through gritted teeth

If you start prioritising results, then that comes at the cost of important aspects of player development.

At some point you have to learn the professional side of the game but I think that comes very late on in the process.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Results should not be paramount till, well I'm not sure when but even in the u21s development is often more of a priority - as Morgan acknowledges through gritted teeth

If you start prioritising results, then that comes at the cost of important aspects of player development.

At some point you have to learn the professional side of the game but I think that comes very late on in the process.

I 90% agree with you... absolutely players should be developed rather than the result being paramount. But there has to be a balance, otherwise possession rather than pressing become endemic throughout the game. Maybe, of course, that IS the future?

Much the same with egg-chasing. When HB Jnr plays at Fullback for his school team, kicking the ball is discouraged. Unless it's a tight cup game when the teacher suddenly really encourages it.

 

[grafikhaus]

Some really interesting stuff re. coaching here. As far as I'm concerned, this obsession with 'coaching', 'badges' etc. has kept English football back for generations. Charles Hughes was the first bloke I remember who wanted to treat football like chess and choke the life out of it. Football managers are a closed shop - no 'badges', no job (unless you're Shearer where exceptions can be made...). It continues to this day. This sideways, tippy-tappy nonsense has served Swansea well but they've been a one-trick pony. Far more relevant to their 'success' have been players like Michu and Bony. Lose players of that calibre and 'styles' become irrelevant. Brendan Rdgers practically ruined Raheem Sterling's career before it started with his 'the coach knows best' attitude.

A poor manager can have as many badges as he wants, he'll still be a poor manager.

 

[super_pig]

the 'success' of tippy tappy has nothing to do with the style but the quality of the players in that team .. the fact that we'd have won the bloody champions league if we had played hoofball with Messi and Iniesta seems to escape most people's attention
i hate tippy tappy. i'm almost to the point of wishing Neil would return
Klopp will kill tippy tappy once and for all, he's into English style football. the reason these teams like to play this style and ecourage it's use is because it suits skillful but otherwise useless players in the bigger clubs (as someone rightly pointed out earlier).

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Some really interesting stuff re. coaching here. As far as I'm concerned, this obsession with 'coaching', 'badges' etc. has kept English football back for generations. Charles Hughes was the first bloke I remember who wanted to treat football like chess and choke the life out of it. Football managers are a closed shop - no 'badges', no job (unless you're Shearer where exceptions can be made...). It continues to this day. This sideways, tippy-tappy nonsense has served Swansea well but they've been a one-trick pony. Far more relevant to their 'success' have been players like Michu and Bony. Lose players of that calibre and 'styles' become irrelevant. Brendan Rdgers practically ruined Raheem Sterling's career before it started with his 'the coach knows best' attitude.

A poor manager can have as many badges as he wants, he'll still be a poor manager.

Charles Hughes was the brains/stupidity behind Route One which was based on an inabiity to understand the most basic statistics.

Something like: Teams score 1 in 8 shots on target, therefore if you have more shots you will score goals. It's science. Hell, it's maths.

No consideration of quality.

And he was top if the coaching tree for several years.

There's more to the story than that but I think the basics are right.