Nigel Clough - "I Didn't Fail"

[alcoblade]

Let's bear in mind that the vast bulk of what he spent on transfer fees was spent on Done and Brayford whom to my mind were bought in the January window (because as always we didn't invest in the summer).

This meant that they had to be integrated into an already inconsistent squad. Prior to that he had to build a larger and more diverse squad due to the as usual limited budget for playing staff. It seems a perfectly logical thought process to me that if you're not allowed go and pay for quality, you simply pay to have more options at your disposal. Warnock did the very same thing when he was working on a limited budget. He used to have huge squads of journey men.

It doesn't change the fact that in a season and a half he took the club from the relegation zone to 5th. The so called bloated squad didn't prevent that. Anyone believing that £3m (or whatever is was) over 18 months should take no hopers to automatic promotion needs to visit the rest of us on planet earth when they get the chance.

Out of interest, putting aside the reason for arriving in that position, you would accept that our squad was (so called) bloated, wouldn't you?

UTB

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Cup runs apart getting us to fifth in League 1 from the relegation zone in two seasons doesn't seem like a great achievement. Admittedly, Adkins appears to be going fo r the reverse in only one season.

It wasn't two season though was it, let's get the facts in place before we even argue how great an achievement relegation zone to 5th is.

 

[northsomersetblade]

What's with all the 'we didn't fail, my precious', does he think he is Gollum?

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Out of interest, putting aside the reason for arriving in that position, you would accept that out squad was (so called) bloated, wouldn't you?

UTB

It's most certainly on the large side yes, there's no doubt about that. My argument was that however Clough decided to build a squad, he was doing so with his tenure in mind going forward. Let's not forget that those now blaming him for it allowed it under their watch.

Furthermore I argue that a man who took us from the relegation zone to 5th in a season and a half shouldn't have been sacked. If we disagree on that last point, then fine....but....

The bloated squad argument is only relevant to you, the board, the manager or anyone else at this point because it is being used as a mitigating circumstance for poor performance. The previous manager still did better with it than the current one is....that's an undeniable fact. Clough is no longer the manager and hence was given no opportunity to attempt another improved final league position. It becomes irrelevant when they sack him, bring another another man in and allow him to sign even more players.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Did he manage to keep his job? No. Rumours are he is talking to Walsall.

 

[alcoblade]

It's most certainly on the large side yes, there's no doubt about that. My argument was that however Clough decided to build a squad, he was doing so with his tenure in mind going forward. Let's not forget that those now blaming him for it allowed it under their watch.

Furthermore I argue that a man who took us from the relegation zone to 5th in a season and a half shouldn't have been sacked. If we disagree on that last point, then fine....but....

The bloated squad argument is only relevant to you, the board, the manager or anyone else at this point because it is being used as a mitigating circumstance for poor performance. The previous manager still did better with it than the current one is....that's an undeniable fact. Clough is no longer the manager and hence was given no opportunity to attempt another improved final league position. It becomes irrelevant when they sack him, bring another another man in and allow him to sign even more players.

I don't care about comparisons in the managers. On one hand, the current manager is working with someone else's squad. On the other, he's not doing a very good job anyway - but it still makes no difference on the job Clough did with the squad he built.

The squad size tells us a lot about the resource at his disposal. At the end of his second season in charge, we finished as near to relegation as automatic promotion, points wise. On top, the style of football bored me senseless. If we are to remain in the third division, then at the very least I demand I see my team try and win every game. I believe he took over in a false position, and given the resource, he "failed".

So on my measure, he was a failure. I can see how it can be argued otherwise. But the only legacy I care about is the squad we are left with, which I believe is piss poor.

UTB

 

[blade.i.am]

It wasn't two season though was it, let's get the facts in place before we even argue how great an achievement relegation zone to 5th is.

Relegation zone to seventh first season; seventh to fifth second season. Unimpressed.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

I don't care about comparisons in the managers. On one hand, the current manager is working with someone else's squad. On the other, he's not doing a very good job anyway - but it still makes no difference on the job Clough did with the squad he built.

The squad size tells us a lot about the resource at his disposal. At the end of his second season in charge, we finished as near to relegation as automatic promotion, points wise. On top, the style of football bored me senseless. If we are to remain in the third division, then at the very least I demand I see my team try and win every game. I believe he took over in a false position, and given the resource, he "failed".

So on my measure, he was a failure. I can see how it can be argued otherwise. But the only legacy I care about is the squad we are left with, which I believe is piss poor.

UTB

Fair enough. Just two things:-

1) What it tells us about the tools at his disposal is that instead of starting with a plan and sticking to it....for example investing in quality in the first place....we go cheap and keep trying to go cheap until we're forced to do what we should have done in the first place and back the manager before it's too late.

2) I do not believe there is such a thing as a false position in this sport. We were down there because we were crap.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Relegation zone to seventh first season; seventh to fifth second season. Unimpressed.

Then Man City might be a better club for you.

 

[alcoblade]

2) I do not believe there is such a thing as a false position in this sport. We were down there because we were crap.

In which case it would be impossible for a manager to do a good or a bad job. We shouldn't have sacked Weir, because he couldn't influence things, the position of the club in the league would be arrived at efficiently. That's clearly not the case.

UITB

 

[rtifati]

The cup runs were pretty special though, weren't they? Thought they restored a bit of pride to the club and the fans. Shame we put out a weak team at Fulham as I would have loved a repeat this season.

 

[secretchief]

He failed appallingly in the 2014 summer transfer window, giving himself absolutely no chance to succeed that season. His inflexibility only compounded it, but failure was inevitable.

 

[Bartleby]

To my eyes, Cloughie's signings were generally an improvement on what he inherited and, more importantly they appeared committed

Having been there to witness the capitulations on home soil to Fleetwood and Crewe last season I can't agree with that. This so called spinelessness, the lack of courage, confidence and commitment did not start this season, it was evident then.

 

[Bartleby]

Relegation zone to seventh first season; seventh to fifth second season. Unimpressed.

Relegation zone to seventh first season - impressed.
Fifth second season, with some truly spineless and boring displays on the way and what was in reality a hammering by Swindon in the playoffs (it shouldn't require a 3 goal deficit and threat of humiliation to motivate them to get up for that one), when compared to what Cotterill did at Bristol City in the same timeframe - unimpressed.

 

[Jon Bon]

"It certainly wasn't the case at Sheffield because we went from third from bottom to seventh, fifth and two semi-finals. So if that's failure, good luck to everybody else."

Er, you called us 'Sheffield' you pug-nosed cunt. How big a fail do you want?

 

[Houston_Blade]

I think if a manager is allowed to spend circa £3M on transfer fees in League 1, they bloody well should turn a team into promotion contenders - at the very least.

We got to the play offs, surely that's classed as promotion contenders?

I agree to a point though, the £3m wasn't invested wisely.

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

Er, you called us 'Sheffield' you pug-nosed cunt. How big a fail do you want?

Why? Is there another team in Sheffield?

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

He failed appallingly in the 2014 summer transfer window, giving himself absolutely no chance to succeed that season. His inflexibility only compounded it, but failure was inevitable.

Just about every manager we've had seems to fail appallingly

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

I detest the man I have to admit.

Despite the fact you've never met him...?

 

[Bladepicker]

He failed appallingly in the 2014 summer transfer window, giving himself absolutely no chance to succeed that season. His inflexibility only compounded it, but failure was inevitable.

Mainly down to the board, not Clough. Clough wanted Coady, Brayford, a centre half (Butler) and the target man O'Grady.

Because of our board being tight (I believe on Coady Jim Phipps said something about the price being too high on initial.negotiation) Clough was forced to go the quantity over quality route.

That said his failure to sign a suitable commanding centre half was a big mistake.


The really suprising thing is neither has Adkins.

 

[Revolution]

Good things:

- he was a better manager than David Weir
- some players from previous regimes (notably Murphy) prospered
- 2 cup semi finals - from the third tier - with some excellent wins along the way
- 10 wins in a row was great fun
- made the playoffs
- we were definitely in a better state when he left than when he arrived
- a small point, but was interesting in interviews and gave straight answers

Bad things:

- shambolic summer 2014 transfer window we are still recovering from
- signed players with poor injury and fitness
records, which is still a problem 6 months on
- never sorted out our weakness at centre half
- an inability to recognise that we need height and strength and goals in central midfield
-Didn't get us up despite being well resourced and backed in the transfer market
- fell out with players, to the detriment of the team
- I'm not sure we were in a better state at the end of 2015 than we were at the end of 2014

A mixed legacy. But I had no hope he would learn from his mistakes if given more time. I would not have fired him (I say that without knowing what went on behind the scenes) but I do not miss him.

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

If Adkins manages to finish 5th this season and get us to the FA Cup semi final then I would consider that a miracle!!! So the fact that Clough got to two semis and had us in the play offs last year isn't too shabby is it!

Yes Clough made mistakes in the summer transfer window last year, but I would consider Adkins mistakes this year are even worse as he and the board have had the benefit from learning from last year....which they haven't at all.

Clough should have been given another year. If you want longevity and success then you also have to be willing to accept managers will make mistakes. What Clough said is spot on, as long as you're seeing progress and are challenging at the right end of the table, then you should be given time.

it will be interesting to see how much time the board, and fans, give Adkins.

 

[Hunkerby]

Strange how each club that Clough managed achieved better results shortly after he left - apart from us obviously!

 

[SwissBlade]

Swiss is going to be all over this like a wank sock

I completely agree with him. I've said it before but His sacking, if performance related generally was harsh to say the least.

In my opinion, again I've mentioned previously, if you're going to sack him for finishing 7th then you have to do this with improvement in mind. Fair enough, Phipps said that they wanted to change him out because of
- promotion requirement, not cups
- play a better style of football playing negatively
- failing to prepare properly
- reduce the squad size
- improve quality over quantity
- yes man to the footbal committee (failure to make himself accountable to the board)
- get harmony in the dressing room (falling out with players)
- playing players irregularly (thus impairing value)
- failure to recruit a front end
- failure to recruit central defenders

I was told that all the above have been addressed with the new appointment.

 

[Blade Runner]

Maceverly and Allcock centre back paring in a play off semi final...

That suggests failure to me.

Yep that pairing was an idiotic decision and it showed

 

[Tezza1889]

He got fired because of a huge argument with the board at an end of season review, he wasn't going anywhere up to that point.. He was renewing contracts, he wasn't going anywhere..

It's anybody's guess as to what happened, and and the loosening of his tongue this week just means that somebody's prepaired to pay cloughs contract up with the blades, because they'd have to to hire clough.. We will still be paying him..

I wish him luck I really do, but I don't lament his leaving for a second.. He was in my opinion more bothered about himself than the team and club, his way or the highway, no striker on the pitch, two centre halfs in the stand and none on the pitch, strikers on the bench, buying practically disabled people and handing them two year contracts, buying his mates in, Nope, not for me... Good luck Nigel clough, hope you learned something from being with us, but probably not, as when have you ever got it wrong.. Eh...


I do have to say though that Nigel 2 is just as baffling and deluded about tactics and old flames, were fucked aren't we.. No more Nigel's after this please...

 

[Cyprus Blade]

His sacking, if performance related generally was harsh to say the least.

He claims not to know the reason why he got the Spanish archer - I find that unbelievable (an echo of something Collins said when he got canned by Clough??). I'm pretty sure Phipps will have let him know exactly why he had to go and he knows full well what the reasons were. And I am betting he wants us to go down to show that he was right from some of his comments. He strikes me as that sort of a bloke. In reality he has done to us what Warnock jokingly said he would do to the Pigs if he ever got to manage them. Adkins has his faults (who doesn't) but he is having to clear up after Clough's mis-spending, his total abortion of squad building and his mistakes.

Perhaps Clough should move to Egypt and find his perfect club - De Nile Wanderers. His refusal to accept any personal responsibility or criticism is exactly why I am glad he has gone - its his least attractive feature and one that will never change. I've worked for people like that and it isn't pleasant and, more importantly, it does little for motivation. How many times did people comment on how the team played with fear and were scared to try anything in case it didn't come off because of the bollocking that would come from Clough and his bald-headed bullying sidekick. He has his father's arrogance but is not fit to lace his father's bootlaces in the managerial talent stakes.

 

[Woodwardfan]

He claims not to know the reason why he got the Spanish archer - I find that unbelievable (an echo of something Collins said when he got canned by Clough??). I'm pretty sure Phipps will have let him know exactly why he had to go and he knows full well what the reasons were. And I am betting he wants us to go down to show that he was right from some of his comments. He strikes me as that sort of a bloke. In reality he has done to us what Warnock jokingly said he would do to the Pigs if he ever got to manage them. Adkins has his faults (who doesn't) but he is having to clear up after Clough's mis-spending, his total abortion of squad building and his mistakes.

Perhaps Clough should move to Egypt and find his perfect club - De Nile Wanderers. His refusal to accept any personal responsibility or criticism is exactly why I am glad he has gone - its his least attractive feature and one that will never change. I've worked for people like that and it isn't pleasant and, more importantly, it does little for motivation. How many times did people comment on how the team played with fear and were scared to try anything in case it didn't come off because of the bollocking that would come from Clough and his bald-headed bullying sidekick. He has his father's arrogance but is not fit to lace his father's bootlaces in the managerial talent stakes.

Couldn't agree more.

Clough knows exactly what went on last summer and he knows that missing out on promotion after over 2 years in charge amounted to failure after he spent a small fortune in the JTW.

He was sacked for some specific reason, whatever it was, in the middle of the summer, when it appeared that the plan was for him to be given a further year at least. It is disingenuous to pretend he was not given a reason. With unprecedented power and authority, some of it exceeding his brief according to Phipps, he fell well short and in total disarray by the end of that season.

Clough has a complex personality and style which is a throwback to the management school practiced well over a decade ago. In such regimes all is fine if you fit into his ways but woe-betide anyone who dares to question him and fails to kow-tow. Moody, surly, dictatorial, aggressive bully with a very willing accomplice in Garner.

 

[mattbianco1]

I think Clough's problem is that he was too stubborn. Probably had a clash with the board.

Another problem was that he put more effort into the cup runs. We could've won promotion playing like we did in the cups.

 

[TJB.]

Finishing 5th and massively fucking up the play-offs when your goal was promotion = failure. That's not failure meant in any detrimental way or as any kind of personal attack...he had a target and was given the resources with which he could easily have attained that target. He didn't. That's a failure however you dress it up.

If I was to talk detrimentally about him, I'd say he was an arrogant cunt who finished so far away from the top two (both in footballing terms and mathematically) they might as well have been top of La Liga. His recruitment policy has done us so royally up the rear that we're facing the reality of a 6th season in the third tier and his brand of football made the Lane a poisonous place to be at times. That's a ruddy big whopper of a failure in my eyes.

This lot at the moment might not be pulling up any trees, but at least they sometimes have a fucking go when they go forward. 'You start a game with a point' is a mantra that will haunt me for the rest of my days and serve as a constant reminder of how the game should never be played.

Massive thanks for the cup runs; they were great fun. But we're still down here when it didn't have to be this way.