Learning from history

[Bergen Blade]

Below are three of our most successful teams in recent history, all with good balance and certain things that they did really well.



Warnock's promotion team 2005/06:

4-4-2

Kenny
Bromby Morgan Short Unsworth
Ifill Monty Jags A.Quinn
Shipperley Kabba​

• An experienced, strong side, went out to win the battle and also had the quality to edge matches
• Notable squad members:
  • Geary/Kozluk (right back) - added pace/energy
  • Gillespie (right wing) - better crossing/passing, less dribbling
  • Tonge (central or left midfield) - added creativity
  • Armstrong (left midfield) - added energy and aggression in front of Unsworth
  • Webber - replaced Kabba when he ran out of steam
• Tall and physically strong defence
• Very hard working central midfield - ball winner and box to box combo
• Creativity and through balls from A.Quinn
• A very direct winger in Ifill made us less predictable
• Classic target man/quick striker combination
• Good squad, other team members came in and made great contributions

Wilson's 2011/12 side before Evans was put in prison:

4-4-2:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins LFJ
Williamson McDonald Doyle S.Quinn
Cresswell Evans​

• Great composure and technique in the side, could outpass teams
• A fabulous finisher in Evans
• Notable team members:
  • Flynn - gave a bit more width in some games
  • Porter - added aerial ability
• Team coped without great pace/dribblers
• Skilful, overlapping full backs
• Playmaker/anchor man combo in midfield, neither too advanced
• Creativity out wide, no out and out wingers
• Experience and goalgetter combo up front

Clough's giant killing and table climbing 2013/14 side:

4-3-3/4-1-4-1:

Howard
Brayford Maguire Collins Harris
Doyle
Coady - - - Scougall
Flynn - - - - - - - - - - - - Murphy
Baxter

​

• A great counter attacking and mobile side
• Essentially a 4-5-1, even without an out and out striker (Baxter was a false 9)
• But great forward movement from virtually every player
• Notable squad members:
  • Porter - scored quite a few as sub
  • McGinn - did the holding role well when Doyle was out
• Doyle anchoring, flanked by Coady/Scougall in box to box roles
• Quick and direct wingers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At times the past couple of seasons it's been difficult to see what we're supposed to be really good at. We are lacking something, whatever we've tried. When we've addressed something, another weakness has appeared.

I think there's potential in the current team, especially with the likes of Done, Adams and Sharp, but how do we compose the team to make effective use of these assets? Midfield selection still looks a bit difficult. Before we dismiss the current bunch and pray for better replacements in January, let's focus on how we can make the most of what we've got, and maybe we can use the above well-balanced teams for inspiration?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Below are three of our most successful teams in recent history, all with good balance and certain things that they did really well.



Warnock's promotion team 2005/06:

4-4-2

Kenny
Bromby Morgan Short Unsworth
Ifill Monty Jags A.Quinn
Shipperley Kabba​

• An experienced, strong side, went out to win the battle and also had the quality to edge matches
• Notable squad members:
  • Geary/Kozluk (right back) - added pace/energy
  • Gillespie (right wing) - better crossing/passing, less dribbling
  • Tonge (central or left midfield) - added creativity
  • Armstrong (left midfield) - added energy and aggression in front of Unsworth
  • Webber - replaced Kabba when he ran out of steam
• Tall and physically strong defence
• Very hard working central midfield - ball winner and box to box combo
• Creativity and through balls from A.Quinn
• A very direct winger in Ifill made us less predictable
• Classic target man/quick striker combination
• Good squad, other team members came in and made great contributions

Wilson's 2011/12 side before Evans was put in prison:

4-4-2:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins LFJ
Williamson McDonald Doyle S.Quinn
Cresswell Evans​

• Great composure and technique in the side, could outpass teams
• A fabulous finisher in Evans
• Notable team members:
  • Flynn - gave a bit more width in some games
  • Porter - added aerial ability
• Team coped without great pace/dribblers
• Skilful, overlapping full backs
• Playmaker/anchor man combo in midfield, neither too advanced
• Creativity out wide, no out and out wingers
• Experience and goalgetter combo up front

Clough's giant killing and table climbing 2013/14 side:

4-3-3/4-1-4-1:

Howard
Brayford Maguire Collins Harris
Doyle
Coady - - - Scougall
Flynn - - - - - - - - - - - - Murphy
Baxter

​

• A great counter attacking and mobile side
• Essentially a 4-5-1, even without an out and out striker (Baxter was a false 9)
• But great forward movement from virtually every player
• Notable squad members:
  • Porter - scored quite a few as sub
  • McGinn - did the holding role well when Doyle was out
• Doyle anchoring, flanked by Coady/Scougall in box to box roles
• Quick and direct wingers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At times the past couple of seasons it's been difficult to see what we're supposed to be really good at. We are lacking something, whatever we've tried. When we've addressed something, another weakness has appeared.

I think there's potential in the current team, especially with the likes of Done, Adams and Sharp, but how do we compose the team to make effective use of these assets? Midfield selection still looks a bit difficult. Before we dismiss the current bunch and pray for better replacements in January, let's focus on how we can make the most of what we've got, and maybe we can use the above well-balanced teams for inspiration?

Warnock and Wilson didn't pass it across the back four multiply times.

Cloughs counter attackers never had the ball to pass it across the back four, surrendering it to the opposition most of the time.

Very simplistic view but not far off fact?

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

Best bet with what we've got IMO:

Howard
Brayford Basham Edgar Harris
Baxter Coutts
Hammond
Adams Sharp Done

Gets the essentials in place: the dangerous front 3 of Adams/Sharp/Done, Baxter in deep-lying creative role (with potential to interchange with a more advanced Hammond), & the attacking full-back prowess of Brayford & Harris.

Hammond playing an advanced harrying role.

Basham dropped back into his best position.

Potential on the bench to alter things - JCR as winger, Sammon as big man, Reed as more aggressive partner for Baxter.

 

[coaxingstar71]

One of the first things that sticks out in all those sides is that they all contained a quality centre half - something we are sadly lacking ATM.

I agree with some others who have suggested moving Basham back to centre half alongside either Collins or Edgar when he's fit. I think Basham is a better CH than McGahey and I don't think Basham does enough as a midfielder in that he's neither a holding player or a ball player. I know we need to change tactics and formations to counter the opposition but I think our default formation based on the current players should be 4-2-3-1 with Hammond and Coutts as the holding players, Baxter in the middle of the 3 behind the striker and the 2 wide and front man being Done, Che and Billy but rotating positions during the game. Then you've also got options of Sammon and JCR too. This format would rely heavily on the work rate of Che and Done (no problems there!) supporting the striker. I think it would work because all 3 of them work hard.

What do you think Bergen? BTW I was hoping you'd post about the goals we conceded v Millwall - would've been v. interested in your thoughts and analysis on them.

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

All three of those teams were strong at the back. We have Brayford coming back soon, but for me he has to come in as CB as Freeman has probably been our best defender this season and ultimately, CB is more of a "key" position.

In terms of balance, we either need to go for a 4-4-2 with JCR and Adams/Flynn as wingers and Sharp + Done/Sammon up front. Or a 4-3-3 with Done on the right of the 3 and Adams on the left and Sharp as the point man. In the last match Done was on the left and looked well out of sorts.

Also note that 2 of the above teams featured a "big" striker. Sammon may yet be the best foil for Sharp.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Now:-
___________Howard
Freeman Basham Edgar K.Wallace
________Coutts____Hammond____
Adams_______Baxter_______Done
_____________Sharp____________

Ideally and soon?:-
___________Howard
Brayford Basham Kennedy Harris
_______J.Wallace_Hammond___
Adams______Baxter_______Done
____________Sharp____________

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

Kennedy & J. Wallace are sadly crocks. It's a shame as they are both talented but we can't be making plans with them in mind.

 

[Bergen Blade]

What do you think Bergen? BTW I was hoping you'd post about the goals we conceded v Millwall - would've been v. interested in your thoughts and analysis on them.

I'll get back to adding my thoughts on this a bit later.

Regarding the goals vs Millwall, I made some posts in Deadbat's match report thread, post #53, #85 and #94..

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Kennedy & J. Wallace are sadly crocks. It's a shame as they are both talented but we can't be making plans with them in mind.

J Wallace definitely. Kennavaro has been on the bench for the last few games, and played a half against Oldham. I thought McGahey really struggled on Satdi so he might get a game at Crewe - though Edgar should be near fitness - he was mentioned as a probable starter against Millwall.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Below are three of our most successful teams in recent history, all with good balance and certain things that they did really well.



Warnock's promotion team 2005/06:

4-4-2

Kenny
Bromby Morgan Short Unsworth
Ifill Monty Jags A.Quinn
Shipperley Kabba​

• An experienced, strong side, went out to win the battle and also had the quality to edge matches
• Notable squad members:
  • Geary/Kozluk (right back) - added pace/energy
  • Gillespie (right wing) - better crossing/passing, less dribbling
  • Tonge (central or left midfield) - added creativity
  • Armstrong (left midfield) - added energy and aggression in front of Unsworth
  • Webber - replaced Kabba when he ran out of steam
• Tall and physically strong defence
• Very hard working central midfield - ball winner and box to box combo
• Creativity and through balls from A.Quinn
• A very direct winger in Ifill made us less predictable
• Classic target man/quick striker combination
• Good squad, other team members came in and made great contributions

Wilson's 2011/12 side before Evans was put in prison:

4-4-2:

Simonsen
Lowton Maguire Collins LFJ
Williamson McDonald Doyle S.Quinn
Cresswell Evans​

• Great composure and technique in the side, could outpass teams
• A fabulous finisher in Evans
• Notable team members:
  • Flynn - gave a bit more width in some games
  • Porter - added aerial ability
• Team coped without great pace/dribblers
• Skilful, overlapping full backs
• Playmaker/anchor man combo in midfield, neither too advanced
• Creativity out wide, no out and out wingers
• Experience and goalgetter combo up front

Clough's giant killing and table climbing 2013/14 side:

4-3-3/4-1-4-1:

Howard
Brayford Maguire Collins Harris
Doyle
Coady - - - Scougall
Flynn - - - - - - - - - - - - Murphy
Baxter

​

• A great counter attacking and mobile side
• Essentially a 4-5-1, even without an out and out striker (Baxter was a false 9)
• But great forward movement from virtually every player
• Notable squad members:
  • Porter - scored quite a few as sub
  • McGinn - did the holding role well when Doyle was out
• Doyle anchoring, flanked by Coady/Scougall in box to box roles
• Quick and direct wingers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At times the past couple of seasons it's been difficult to see what we're supposed to be really good at. We are lacking something, whatever we've tried. When we've addressed something, another weakness has appeared.

I think there's potential in the current team, especially with the likes of Done, Adams and Sharp, but how do we compose the team to make effective use of these assets? Midfield selection still looks a bit difficult. Before we dismiss the current bunch and pray for better replacements in January, let's focus on how we can make the most of what we've got, and maybe we can use the above well-balanced teams for inspiration?

Hope this quote from Deadbat's column helps with the theme.





Sorry missed it! See post below!

 

[Woodwardfan]

Good post.

I'll list what I regard as very good midfield players at this level in my opinion in order of merit:

Hammond ( I'm presuming he's good)
Reed
Baxter
Coutts
Flynn
Wallace (when fit)
Woolford
Freeman (wing back)
Harris (wing back)

We also have Basham, Scougall, Ryce, Done, Adams. I'd play Bash in defence and the last two in attack.

There is enough quality in that list and the manager has to find a way of playing the resources to their strengths. To date he has not found the right system or decided on his first choice team.

The resources don't quite man a 4-4-2 system or 4-3-3 ( which I personally don't like).

4-5-1 could work. My preference would be 3-5-2. In addition the diamond could work in a 4-2-3-1 formation or a 4-1-3-2.

Coutts and Hammond together somehow could work really well in possession and control-wise but defensively would be questionable, though I do think they are capable of keeping the right side of the ball and holding their positions well.

Those midfielders surely are capable of providing the ammunition for Done, Sharp, Adams and Sammon, McNulty in that order, surely and capable of keeping things tight against teams like Burton who just look to stop us playing anyway.

Hammond is the key - how good is he as a player and a leader?

The manager has to get the players expressing themselves and playing positvely. That will ignite the crowd and the ball starts rolling.

 

[TJB.]

All three of those teams were strong at the back. We have Brayford coming back soon, but for me he has to come in as CB as Freeman has probably been our best defender this season and ultimately, CB is more of a "key" position.

Nooooooo no no no.

We had enough of Brayford at CB last season. If we're on about learning from history, let's learn from the fact he had to go there because we ran out of options at the back.

He's an attacking RB and should be deployed as such. I agree with you on Freeman to the extent that I can't see Brayford walking back into the side. I think them two will be fighting it out for the RB spot and, if the Beard makes it his, I can see Freeman going over to the left to fight for that place, n'all.

We don't need to play Brayford at CB because two top-drawer CB's are top of the shopping list in January...






(Hopefully)

 

[Grappler]

I don't think any opposition striker would fancy running at a back four made up of these lads.......


"...Bromby Morgan Short Unsworth...."

 

[Lane Ender]

Best bet with what we've got IMO:

Howard
Brayford Basham Edgar Harris
Baxter Coutts
Hammond
Adams Sharp Done

Gets the essentials in place: the dangerous front 3 of Adams/Sharp/Done, Baxter in deep-lying creative role (with potential to interchange with a more advanced Hammond), & the attacking full-back prowess of Brayford & Harris.

Hammond playing an advanced harrying role.

Basham dropped back into his best position.

Potential on the bench to alter things - JCR as winger, Sammon as big man, Reed as more aggressive partner for Baxter.

You couldnt better that agree with the bench options as well

 

[super_pig]

to be top of league one you need championship quality players.. how many have we got?
beard, billy, done, che.. end.

 

[cooperblade]

Best bet with what we've got IMO:

Howard
Brayford Basham Edgar Harris
Baxter Coutts
Hammond
Adams Sharp Done

Gets the essentials in place: the dangerous front 3 of Adams/Sharp/Done, Baxter in deep-lying creative role (with potential to interchange with a more advanced Hammond), & the attacking full-back prowess of Brayford & Harris.

Hammond playing an advanced harrying role.

Basham dropped back into his best position.

Potential on the bench to alter things - JCR as winger, Sammon as big man, Reed as more aggressive partner for Baxter.

That's a central midfield made up of 3 players who can't run though isn't it? Think it highlights Bergen's point well.

EDIT: I only saw his debut when he was really poor but at the moment, I'm struggling to see how Hammond addresses any of the problems we have. Was it more obvious v Millwall?

 

[raul]

I think the two points made are inextricably linked Bergs, we don't have a plan, so don't have a squad to execute such a thing and as a result make the final point a fruitless exercise.

Which of our current squad would replace the equivalent player in either of the D1 squads listed?

 

[Rodley]

Need mobility at centre mid and centre half. This is why it's going wrong, weaker players are out competing our midfield as we simply can't close them down fast enough, track their runs and / or run past or beyond them.

 

[secretchief]

Expensive loans of players from the divisions above ours that are no better than what we have and are in many cases worse: toxic to us since Blackwell, looks like getting a fresh lease of life under Adkins.

 

[Lane Ender]

to be top of league one you need championship quality players.. how many have we got?
beard, billy, done, che.. end.

It will take time to build on the above just got to be patient SP

 

[Swanseablade]

• Quick and direct wingers

Not sure about this Bergen.
Flynn definitely improved under Cloughie, but his speed didn't! He's never been exactly "quick" IMO.
I'm quicker wi' m'wellies on....

 

[Bergen Blade]

I've mentioned before that I think fans are too harsh on individuals. You don't have to spend long on this forum before you find abuse, ridicule and contempt for our players. But every player in the squad actually has a history of doing well - at least for spells - at this level and many at higher levels as well. I don't accept that it is possible for a player to keep the likes of Kane, Adebayor, Mane, Long and Austin in check, while a little later being absolutely useless against third tier strikers. For me it's about putting them together in a manner that makes effective use of their good qualities and minimises the importance of their weak qualities. It's about balance and complementary attributes.

Too often it seems we are just trying to squeeze 11 decent players into a formation. Due to the nature of players we've got it's easy to forget something, something about our balance that's not quite right and means we don't get enough rhythm to the way we play. Or something that makes the opposition punish areas, weaknesses which we've ignored.

In my opinion, the most exciting thing about us at the moment is the attacking potential of Done, Sharp and Adams. There should be a lot of goals and entertainment with such an attacking trio, so for me it's about trying to make effective use of their abilities - pace, movement, aggression, skill, finishing. They should be given roles that asks them to do what they're good at. Our playing style should put them in these situations and the rest of the team should be composed in such a manner that we make it happen often. This is what we could be about, what we could do a little better than the rest.

How do we do that?

As cooperblade said I have concerns regarding the current popular solution, i.e. Hammond, Coutts and Baxter in a 4-2-3-1 formation. All have good attributes, it may work in some games and it would be interesting to see it tried. However I think the lack of running - attacking and defensive movement - would see us struggle.

Defensively I think they'd struggle to track runs, catch up with runners, close down players, make tackles and win the ball in good areas. If I'd been an opposition manager I'd tell my players to constantly try to find space in front of the defence, as any partnership of Hammond, Coutts and Baxter would hate chasing after players across the pitch there. To compensate the wide men would have had to get deeper to help out tracking runs, thus reducing their attacking impact. I think we've seen lately how limited Done can be when his position has been too deep. Same with Adams.

On the ball there would be neat, accurate passing, a lot of possession, but we'd lack forward movement from midfield, leading to poor tempo and the forwards too often receiving the ball with their back to goal, rather than running on to balls. This was the case vs Millwall and for most of the Fleetwood game.

Again, these are just my current feelings, hopefully the players will prove me wrong if the mentioned midfield is tried!

 

[Bergen Blade]

• Quick and direct wingers

Not sure about this Bergen.
Flynn definitely improved under Cloughie, but his speed didn't! He's never been exactly "quick" IMO.
I'm quicker wi' m'wellies on....

Agree with that, but Clough told him to be more direct and made him run at (his) top speed more often and he became so much more effective. I didn't think it was possible to make him play as well as he did in that team.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I think the two points made are inextricably linked Bergs, we don't have a plan, so don't have a squad to execute such a thing and as a result make the final point a fruitless exercise.

Which of our current squad would replace the equivalent player in either of the D1 squads listed?

That's why we need to find a plan though, one that suits our best assets.

Done scored 22 goals last season, Sharp has scored 20+ in the past and Adams is on his way to become better than both of them - surely something to build on, and comparable to a frontline of Flynn, Baxter and Murphy?

 

[Wards]

Since we sold Maguire we've badly missed that centre half that can carry the ball and commit an opposition player to breaking their defensive line. Basham is currently the best option we have to this (Collins used to do it a bit when partnered with HM but reluctant to do so now). When we're finding it difficult to draw teams out, especially at home, this is a tactic we should focus on IMO.

In another note, my midfield would be (after some thought)

Hammond
Scougall. Coutts

Must be a place for Jose in there somewhere though, maybe one of the front three.

 

[sitwell]

And they all used to go out on Saturday nights for a drink.

 

[Wards]

Piss head good for nowts

 

[alcoblade]

to be top of league one you need championship quality players.. how many have we got?
beard, billy, done, che.. end.

I'm not certain that's true this season - but you need players better than the rest, either way.


UTB

 

[SwissBlade]

Now:-
___________Howard
Freeman Basham Edgar K.Wallace
________Coutts____Hammond____
Adams_______Baxter_______Done
_____________Sharp____________

Ideally and soon?:-
___________Howard
Brayford Basham Kennedy Harris
_______J.Wallace_Hammond___
Adams______Baxter_______Done
____________Sharp____________

Seeing as though the fax machine is fooked.

Print that off, stick it in an envelope and whack a first class stamp on it addressed to mr Adkins...

 

[Cyprus Blade]

We have Brayford coming back soon, but for me he has to come in as CB

Brayford is 5'8" tall - (same height as Alcock and one inch taller than Scougall). Too short to be a CH - especially in this division.