Phipps and 'The Prince'

[Revolution]

My other half is a legal secretary. She used to deal solely with family law. She now spends 50% of her working week dealing with internet defamation cases, which have increased tenfold since she was first involved two years ago.

Suffice to say, that anyone that you mentioned in your "angry post" could have you on toast, if they so desired.

Nonsense.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

but why they bother when they get crap like this written about them god only knows. .

Cos they are contractually obliged to provide investment in exchange for half a football club?

Suggestions that the Prince invests out of the kindness of his heart are every bit as daft as posts like the OP. I think there has clearly been some investment but 2 major problems are:-

a) We’ve made some atrocious decisions both in terms of timing and the decisions themselves (Player recruitment/retention, managers we’ve appointed etc).

b) McCabe/the prince etc. underestimated just how much investment it might take to get us out of this league. They seemed to think a few million quid would see us romp it but with the aforementioned poor decisions, it’s taken us precisely nowhere.

We’ve had a lack of people who know their football on our board since the late great Derek Dooley. It’s been run by the McCabe’s & Co who make the same sort of knee jerk, ill thought out decisions many fans would. There has been no clear direction in terms of playing style, squad development etc. We’ve just stumbled from manager to manager taking punts and hoping for a quick fix. It really hasn’t worked. This hasn’t been helped by adding Phipps & Co to the board who admit they know bugger all about football. Investment alone doesn’t cut it without leadership unless they’re going to throw silly amounts at it and it’s pretty clear they’re not.

Onto the academy. I think, a few years back I heard that the running costs were something like £1million a year. I know that to be upgraded in the categories, costs have to be a certain amount (Not sure how much). We may have increased the costs to try to reach a certain category. Creative accounting will allow some flexibility there too given that as someone said, it’s the same site as the first team training ground. We might apportion greater costs to the academy for the purpose of category or to secure grants/sponsorships etc. Again, using ball park figures reported in the media, what have we generated from it ?

Mellis- £1million
Kyles- £8-10 million
Slew- £1million
Lowton- £2-3million
Maguire-£2million

Plus we have the likes of Reed, Kennedy, Long etc supplementing the squad. It could also be argued that terrible luck played it’s part with Kennedy and DdG as surely both would be either sold for decent fees or making big contributions for us if not for their injury woes.

I would imagine those fees would cover the running costs for the relevant period. The other side of the coin is that we are playing players while they are 19-20, letting them make their mistakes for us and as soon as they reach a level of consistency and value, we sell them so we don’t get the benefit of the developed player.

Personally, I’m very much in favour of the academy but would like to see us use a smaller squad with the academy kids supplementing it more so the kids get the game time they need to further their development and we get a stronger first 11. It might weaken us when we get a lot of injuries but the costs saved might mean we could keep those kids when they come of age and reap the rewards of such players. It’s a system that would have seen us rely on Reed, Dimaio, Adams, Wallace, De Girolamo and possibly Calvert Lewin more than we did last season but not paying the wages of McEveley, J. Wallace, Holt, Higdon etc might have meant we could have kept Murphy this season.

For me the approach has to be about what Clough said he wanted to do in 2014. Have a squad of 18-19 quality players and supplement that with the kids from the academy. We won’t get another chance to do that until next summer when we can move loads on. I'd love us to scramble to promotion in the meantime but if we don't, it is imperative we don't make the same mistakes again. It has to be quality over quantity next time.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Cos they are contractually obliged to provide investment in exchange for half a football club?

Suggestions that the Prince invests out of the kindness of his heart are every bit as daft as posts like the OP. I think there has clearly been some investment but 2 major problems are:-

a) We’ve made some atrocious decisions both in terms of timing and the decisions themselves (Player recruitment/retention, managers we’ve appointed etc).

b) McCabe/the prince etc. underestimated just how much investment it might take to get us out of this league. They seemed to think a few million quid would see us romp it but with the aforementioned poor decisions, it’s taken us precisely nowhere.

We’ve had a lack of people who know their football on our board since the late great Derek Dooley. It’s been run by the McCabe’s & Co who make the same sort of knee jerk, ill thought out decisions many fans would. There has been no clear direction in terms of playing style, squad development etc. We’ve just stumbled from manager to manager taking punts and hoping for a quick fix. It really hasn’t worked. This hasn’t been helped by adding Phipps & Co to the board who admit they know bugger all about football. Investment alone doesn’t cut it without leadership unless they’re going to throw silly amounts at it and it’s pretty clear they’re not.

Onto the academy. I think, a few years back I heard that the running costs were something like £1million a year. I know that to be upgraded in the categories, costs have to be a certain amount (Not sure how much). We may have increased the costs to try to reach a certain category. Creative accounting will allow some flexibility there too given that as someone said, it’s the same site as the first team training ground. We might apportion greater costs to the academy for the purpose of category or to secure grants/sponsorships etc. Again, using ball park figures reported in the media, what have we generated from it ?

Mellis- £1million
Kyles- £8-10 million
Slew- £1million
Lowton- £2-3million
Maguire-£2million

Plus we have the likes of Reed, Kennedy, Long etc supplementing the squad. It could also be argued that terrible luck played it’s part with Kennedy and DdG as surely both would be either sold for decent fees or making big contributions for us if not for their injury woes.

I would imagine those fees would cover the running costs for the relevant period. The other side of the coin is that we are playing players while they are 19-20, letting them make their mistakes for us and as soon as they reach a level of consistency and value, we sell them so we don’t get the benefit of the developed player.

Personally, I’m very much in favour of the academy but would like to see us use a smaller squad with the academy kids supplementing it more so the kids get the game time they need to further their development and we get a stronger first 11. It might weaken us when we get a lot of injuries but the costs saved might mean we could keep those kids when they come of age and reap the rewards of such players. It’s a system that would have seen us rely on Reed, Dimaio, Adams, Wallace, De Girolamo and possibly Calvert Lewin more than we did last season but not paying the wages of McEveley, J. Wallace, Holt, Higdon etc might have meant we could have kept Murphy this season.

For me the approach has to be about what Clough said he wanted to do in 2014. Have a squad of 18-19 quality players and supplement that with the kids from the academy. We won’t get another chance to do that until next summer when we can move loads on. I'd love us to scramble to promotion in the meantime but if we don't, it is imperative we don't make the same mistakes again. It has to be quality over quantity next time.

Fwiw I don't think the Prince is acting out of altruism and general affection.

The only thing that makes sense is that he wants to be associated with a Premier League club.

His plan is to invest and grow. At the moment this is costing short term £5m annually.

His interests and the fans interests are aligned, even though there are different motivations.

That is unless there's a way the board are profiting by sabotaging progress and keeping us in Division 3.

 

[Worksop II]

he wants to be associated with a Premier League club.

Haha - I bet he tells that joke at all the Parties and Fatwahs

 

[HolmesfieldBlade]

We definitely have not been shrewd enough in the transfer market

Adkins, similarly to Louis Van Gaal at Manchester United last season took too long to assess the squad in pre-season and didn't get rid of enough dead-wood. It's been really disappointing both from the board & Adkins at this point.

 

[Robby Blade]

Wasnt the academy supposed to be self funding
I specifically remeber mccabe boasting about this

Wasnt the academy supposed to be self funding
I specifically remeber mccabe boasting about this

I remember McCabe, at an AGM many years ago saying that we would keep our best academy players for the first team and sell the rest. The sold on ones would pay for the running of the academy.
Perhaps I misheard.

 

[bladeinspaceandtime]

We definitely have not been shrewd enough in the transfer market

Adkins, similarly to Louis Van Gaal at Manchester United last season took too long to assess the squad in pre-season and didn't get rid of enough dead-wood. It's been really disappointing both from the board & Adkins at this point.

Or, Adkins knew that a large proportion of the squad were "dead wood", but also knew/found out that he wouldn't be able to find anyone daft enough to take them off his hands?

 

[Roygbiv]

Phipps is getting some stick on twitter about our lack of activity in the transfer market and the failure to spend the murphy money. He's answered a few questions (basically saying the selling club wouldn't let the player(s) go) but there's a lot of irate fans taking him to task and he seems to have disappeared for a bit. I do feel for him because he personally isn't the reason for the awful mess we have made in the past few transfer windows.

Its not good at all to be a Blade at the minute and its natural there is so much anger about. Some of it may be ott or misplaced but people are just feeling totally disillusioned at the minute and the frustration of not being able to do anything about it will obviously lead to blaming the powers that be for letting the situation devolp. Our club is in a mess and its mostly due to naivity in the transfer market. We sell our best player every season, don't replace him and then seem surprised as the steadily worsening squad fail to achieve promotion.

 

[sheffielder]

Phipps is getting some stick on twitter about our lack of activity in the transfer market and the failure to spend the murphy money. He's answered a few questions (basically saying the selling club wouldn't let the player(s) go) but there's a lot of irate fans taking him to task and he seems to have disappeared for a bit. I do feel for him because he personally isn't the reason for the awful mess we have made in the past few transfer windows.

Its not good at all to be a Blade at the minute and its natural there is so much anger about. Some of it may be ott or misplaced but people are just feeling totally disillusioned at the minute and the frustration of not being able to do anything about it will obviously lead to blaming the powers that be for letting the situation devolp. Our club is in a mess and its mostly due to naivity in the transfer market. We sell our best player every season, don't replace him and then seem surprised as the steadily worsening squad fail to achieve promotion.

He should stop flapping his gums so much, then he wouldn't get so much stick. The bloke is just full of empty promises and leading people up the wrong tree.

 

[Blade56]

He should stop flapping his gums so much, then he wouldn't get so much stick. The bloke is just full of empty promises and leading people up the wrong tree.

Agree but it's a cultural thing, he comes from the US where high fives, chest bumps and hooting 'hot diggerdy dawg' are the order of the day. He hasn't learnt the art of the stiff upper lip or understatement yet (or porky pieing). The motorbike prize on the pitch is a good example with him running on expecting rapturous hooting from excited fans and what he got was shut the feck up we're trying to listen to Sinclair announce the team!
When he realises it's a results game and red and white courses through our veins and all we want to hear is we (the fans and manager) are getting what we want he will pipe down.
Until then he gives social media junkies something to do between games and he provides valuable fuel for S24 et al to last all season.

 

[Jan Age]

If I was the owner of a football club shelling out £5million a year and going backwards. I would want to see first hand what was going on, take a tight reign on things and lead my club forward.

Not playing the Sun Dream Team 1000 of miles away.

 

[wizadry]

If I was the owner of a football club shelling out £5million a year and going backwards. I would want to see first hand what was going on, take a tight reign on things and lead my club forward.

Not playing the Sun Dream Team 1000 of miles away.

Lets hope he gets internet signal when the next sun dream team transfer window comes around.

 

[grafikhaus]

Losing £5m a year is the thing we have to fathom out as to why we are losing that much and what we are going to do about it, because a club at our level should not be losing that much.

I think the clue is in recruiting out-of-work managers, seeing us regress even further and then rewarding them massively for their incompetence.

 

[Zanzibar]

How completely ridiculous does that major investment on the pitch look now by the way...

One millionPounds!!!!!!!........priorities all wrong

 

[Ricky]

One millionPounds!!!!!!!........priorities all wrong

You only spend that money on the pitch if:

1) You already have a squad capable of achieving your targets

or

2) You'll have enough money left to build a squad capable of achieving your targets


The fact we need promotion urgently and that the pitch wasn't all that bad before make it even worse.

I was previously all for the new pitch but I foolishly assumed that the club would only go ahead with it if one of the above applied.

 

[Slim Man]

I just cannot swallow their bullshit about the selling clubs 'not letting go' of their players when we let go of our VERY BEST as soon as they show signs of wanting to leave.

It's pathetic. Nothing has changed since McCabe sold the club to Prince Adbullshit. Nothing at all.

 

[Isiah]

I am not in any way trying to stir - I genuinely am not sure where this £5M annual loss figure has come from and if it's accurate how a third tier football club can possibly lose such an amount on football related expenses only?
Sorry if I'm wildly out - I admit to making assumptions here - but the average wage in this division is around £2500/week. Even if we assume that we are 60% up on that at £4K, for a first team squad of around 20 players that equates to around £4M per year. Our average home gates are around the 19K mark still and assuming an average ticket price of £15 gives us £285000 per home game times 23 is around £6M.
I know there are other significant expenses - ground rent, policing, light,heat,insurance,maintenance etc. etc. but there are other income streams too - sponsorship, programme sales, club shop, catering, advertising, cup gates. Bring junior players, the academy etc. into the equation and the £2M surplus gate money plus additional income must surely cover most if not all additional football expenditure.
If we then assume that transfer monies in and out over recent seasons cancel each other out at the very least we are surely not carrying administrattive expenses year on year at that level are we, even allowing for paying up management team contracts on an almost annual basis. After all, it's not as though we are newcomers to football at this level anymore and haven't had time to cut our cloth.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Fwiw I don't think the Prince is acting out of altruism and general affection.

The only thing that makes sense is that he wants to be associated with a Premier League club.

His plan is to invest and grow. At the moment this is costing short term £5m annually.

His interests and the fans interests are aligned, even though there are different motivations.

That is unless there's a way the board are profiting by sabotaging progress and keeping us in Division 3.

I agree almost entirely WHF. The only part I slightly disagree with is that the £5 annually is seeing us grow. As it stands, that just seems to be letting us stand still. As I said in my previous post, in the absence of inspired leadership or massive investment, it continues to be a struggle. If a plan and a philosophy had been put in place when the Prince had come on board and the recruitment had matched that plan and the plan had been stuck to, I think we might have got promoted by now. But we took a chance on Weir (talks with the Prince and plans going forward must have been at an advanced stage when Weir was appointed), sacked him, plumped for Clough, let him amass a huge and disappointing squad then sacked him (after letting him renew McEveley’s contract and make a god awful video) and now have Adkins who has that squad stuck round his neck.

If you want to chop and change in the expectation of instant results, you have to be willing to throw a lot of money at it and get the deals done. Adkins is struggling at the moment with what is largely Clough’s squad. If we’re not going to throw the money at it that Adkins needs to put his own team together, we will have to wait til next summer when we can shift half the squad and Adkins will have that flexibility.

The question then is, if we’re not going to back Adkins adequately this season, should we have let Clough have another 6-9 months this season to see if he could fine tune his squad and take us on a level? Give it til Feb/March and it we’re not in the mix replace him with a manager who then could have looked at the squad for a couple of months to see who was worth keeping and who needed shipping out? I’m not saying we should, just that there’s an argument for it. Personally, even though we’re underperforming, I prefer watching this team because Clough’s style bored me and I find Adkins’ more attacking style more entertaining. But that’s just a supporters point of view, not a strategic business decision.

I’ve not given up on Adkins getting us up but the lack of activity suggests it’s going to be a difficult season and that we’re going to have to wait til next season to see if Adkins can put a side together that’s capable of dominating this division. Even then, we face the challenge that our best performers of this season (Done? Brayford? Adams?) will attract attention from elsewhere and the club will have to consider whether it can stand firm for a change when the offers come in. I’m not holding my breath but we can always hope. If Adkins can drag us over the line with this ragbag bunch, we will have a much better chance.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Does anyone else remember that old movie The Prince and the Pauper? Well, we've got a prince who is a bloody pauper.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I am not in any way trying to stir - I genuinely am not sure where this £5M annual loss figure has come from and if it's accurate how a third tier football club can possibly lose such an amount on football related expenses only?
Sorry if I'm wildly out - I admit to making assumptions here - but the average wage in this division is around £2500/week. Even if we assume that we are 60% up on that at £4K, for a first team squad of around 20 players that equates to around £4M per year. Our average home gates are around the 19K mark still and assuming an average ticket price of £15 gives us £285000 per home game times 23 is around £6M.
I know there are other significant expenses - ground rent, policing, light,heat,insurance,maintenance etc. etc. but there are other income streams too - sponsorship, programme sales, club shop, catering, advertising, cup gates. Bring junior players, the academy etc. into the equation and the £2M surplus gate money plus additional income must surely cover most if not all additional football expenditure.
If we then assume that transfer monies in and out over recent seasons cancel each other out at the very least we are surely not carrying administrattive expenses year on year at that level are we, even allowing for paying up management team contracts on an almost annual basis. After all, it's not as though we are newcomers to football at this level anymore and haven't had time to cut our cloth.

In the last available accounts, YE June 2014 turnover was £10.5 million plus grants and donations of £266 k. ALL wages and associated costs amounted to amost £8.7 million and Administrative expenses and interest payable £5.7 million plus "cost of sales" excluding wages of £1million giving rise to the loss of £4.5 million.

The average monthly number of employees during that year was 56 non football and 98, yes 98,football, so its easy to underestimate the wages figure with that many football employees on the books, even if quite a few are academy players and others not earning fortunes.

Admin expenses are not analysed in the accounts.

Sorry I can't post them up but the accoounts are available from Companies House for £1, to anyone.

 

[Silent Blade]

I'm talking about players that we've produced from our academy and we've sold on.
It's not difficult.

Our Academy is now Category 2 under the EPPP. We will never again be able to sell an Academy player for £1M like we did for Jacob Mellis

 

[Darren]

Does anyone else remember that old movie The Prince and the Pauper? Well, we've got a prince who is a bloody pauper.

The Prince and the Porpoise?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sp...e_between_a_Category_1_and_3_Academy_/?ref=ms

This artice provides general guidance that Category 1 academies cost around £2.3 mil per year and Category 3 around £500k per year so I guess as a Category 2, ours would fall somewhere in between. Perhaps around £1.5 mil per year

 

[Isiah]

In the last available accounts, YE June 2014 turnover was £10.5 million plus grants and donations of £266 k. ALL wages and associated costs amounted to amost £8.7 million and Administrative expenses and interest payable £5.7 million plus "cost of sales" excluding wages of £1million giving rise to the loss of £4.5 million.

The average monthly number of employees during that year was 56 non football and 98, yes 98,football, so its easy to underestimate the wages figure with that many football employees on the books, even if quite a few are academy players and others not earning fortunes.

Admin expenses are not analysed in the accounts.

Sorry I can't post them up but the accoounts are available from Companies House for £1, to anyone.

Thanks very much for that ST.

It will be very interesting to see how Y/E June 2015 accounts compare as there seems to be significant room to cut back based on those figures, and also given that debts of £35M have supposedly been written off for a massive reduction in admin cost,

I wait with baited breath.

 

[BushBlade]

I agree almost entirely WHF. The only part I slightly disagree with is that the £5 annually is seeing us grow. As it stands, that just seems to be letting us stand still. As I said in my previous post, in the absence of inspired leadership or massive investment, it continues to be a struggle. If a plan and a philosophy had been put in place when the Prince had come on board and the recruitment had matched that plan and the plan had been stuck to, I think we might have got promoted by now. But we took a chance on Weir (talks with the Prince and plans going forward must have been at an advanced stage when Weir was appointed), sacked him, plumped for Clough, let him amass a huge and disappointing squad then sacked him (after letting him renew McEveley’s contract and make a god awful video) and now have Adkins who has that squad stuck round his neck.

If you want to chop and change in the expectation of instant results, you have to be willing to throw a lot of money at it and get the deals done. Adkins is struggling at the moment with what is largely Clough’s squad. If we’re not going to throw the money at it that Adkins needs to put his own team together, we will have to wait til next summer when we can shift half the squad and Adkins will have that flexibility.

The question then is, if we’re not going to back Adkins adequately this season, should we have let Clough have another 6-9 months this season to see if he could fine tune his squad and take us on a level? Give it til Feb/March and it we’re not in the mix replace him with a manager who then could have looked at the squad for a couple of months to see who was worth keeping and who needed shipping out? I’m not saying we should, just that there’s an argument for it. Personally, even though we’re underperforming, I prefer watching this team because Clough’s style bored me and I find Adkins’ more attacking style more entertaining. But that’s just a supporters point of view, not a strategic business decision.

I’ve not given up on Adkins getting us up but the lack of activity suggests it’s going to be a difficult season and that we’re going to have to wait til next season to see if Adkins can put a side together that’s capable of dominating this division. Even then, we face the challenge that our best performers of this season (Done? Brayford? Adams?) will attract attention from elsewhere and the club will have to consider whether it can stand firm for a change when the offers come in. I’m not holding my breath but we can always hope. If Adkins can drag us over the line with this ragbag bunch, we will have a much better chance.

I think the problem is that the Prince brings very little else to the club but money.

 

[BushBlade]

Our Academy is now Category 2 under the EPPP. We will never again be able to sell an Academy player for £1M like we did for Jacob Mellis

We didn't. It was £400k up front with £600k in add ons that were dependent on his progress. As he didn't make any I doubt we got much more than the initial fee. The fee was set by a tribunal. I read a big article on Chelsea's youth development set up some time ago and it quoted those figures.

You're right that a tribunal is unlikely to award such a level of compensation now as part of the EPPP agreement was to reduce the levels of compensation payable. But it did increase the contribution paid to clubs for having an academy.