Money talks

[Cyprus Blade]

The recent closed thread about whether we are a “top” club did make me think a bit (what with everyone seemingly playing politician and quoting whatever statistics suited a particular argument). What is a top club? What are the current realities?

Fanbase (11th best supported in the country) was cited. Stadium (decent capacity; had a few quid spent on it; not rusting and falling down; historic reputation; fancy Dan pitch; heated seats with built in vibro-massagers etc etc. Academy – highly ranked producing Youth internationals. League and Cup wins. Years in the top division. Average all time league position etc. Sound finances and a backer with a few quid.

All well and good but it did strike me that all this is about history and potential. It doesn’t really touch on the argument about wealth and revenue generation and the realities in the current game. In the end money CAN buy you success. Sure, it’s not a given, but it’s a reality which is staring us in the face. We were a big club and we have the potential to be big again, but I suspect that every Blade knows that every season we spend rotting in this Division sees us fall further and further behind.

You don’t need a huge fanbase to be a top club in the modern game (e.g Cardiff, Swansea, QPR, Blackpool). Once you get your snout in the premiership trough a financial bonanza opens up to you that makes matchday receipts look like pocket money and which conspires to keep the status quo simply by the size of wallet the Premiership clubs have. Not to mention rewarding failure in the shape of parachute payments.

The reality is that the Premiership is on a different plane and the gap is due to widen further, predominantly because of TV money ( under the new deal TV income for Premiership clubs is set to rise by 70% in season 2016-17 to £5.136 billion just for the live matches – rising to £8bn with Overseas rights).

Already TV revenue accounts for 54% of all premiership teams income (source Deloittes). 14 of the top 30 biggest revenue generating clubs in the world are from the Premiership. Arsenal have a huge stadium and fanbase, yet their income from TV receipts dwarfs their matchday income. Their turnover is £300m. Cardiff City had a turnover of £80m in 2013-14 – 70% of which was TV money. Matchday income offered up only 10% of turnover.

Much has been made of the redistribution elements of the new 2016-17 TV deal - the new 'rolling' Solidarity agreement between the Football League and Premier League that will see a proportion of Premier League television revenues re-distributed to Football League clubs from 2016/17.

Under the agreement, parachute payments to relegated Premier League clubs will be reduced from the current four season to three seasons (it will, however, be £80m over the three years as opposed to £59m over 4), with Championship clubs (that are not in receipt of parachute payments) being awarded a solidarity payment equivalent to 30% of a third-year parachute payment. League 1 and League 2 clubs will receive 4.5% and 3% of a third-year payment, respectively.

Championship clubs shared £491m TV revenues between them in 2013-14. Championship sides currently average a turnover of £15m with TV revenue income of £2.3m. Under the new deal Championship clubs will be given a solidarity payment of around £5m. Chicken feed compared with the Premiership but a king’s ransom compared with what Division One will get (£750k).

In 2013 we generated £8.9m revenue. £3.7m of that came from gate receipts and TV income made up a paltry £1.2m of that.

If we don’t want to be just a footnote in the history pages we have to get out of this division this season. Otherwise it’s going to be like pushing a snowball up a very, very big hill.

 

[Oreyt]

 

[Blade56]

Is this year that important? Don't get me wrong Cyprus Blade i want it this season.

Every season 3 clubs will escape L1 and get the next level of income from the Championship. Some will survive that transition some will not. Your points re ground capacity and fan base are crucial to this ability to make the transition.

Take Rotherham, OK credit to them they've gone from a club taking our charity, without a ground with a small fan base to a club with a new ground, in a league above us but with the same small fan base.

Two of the three factors have changed (ground and league position) but the thing that will drag them back to the lower leagues (and it will) is the small fan base. Whereas, when we get our shit together we have the ground and the fan base to make the transition back to the higher leagues.

In conclusion I agree money talks but the fan base and recources are as crucial to challenge for that money pot.

The unfortunate thing is it shouldn't just be about the money it should be about the sport and entertaining the fans!

 

[grafikhaus]

We certainly need to get out of League 3 this season. With every passing year, the gap between us and the Championship grows, owing to wealthy owners (about to be joined by Wolves) and parachute payments. Also, for how much longer will 20k keep turning up for Third Division fare?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Is this year that important?

Probably the most important season in our history.

There are so many players out of contract at the end of the season that we need to build a new team for next season.

Not getting out means we build a third division squad on 2/3 year contracts and all the hassle of not being able to move them on, getting out means a second division squad.

Unless of course the game changing investment means a second division team in the third division then 16/17 will be some season.

Do not underestimate the impact of failure this season.

 

[Droppingwell]

We certainly need to get out of League 3 this season. With every passing year, the gap between us and the Championship grows, owing to wealthy owners (about to be joined by Wolves) and parachute payments. Also, for how much longer will 20k keep turning up for Third Division fare?

Agree completely about the gap between Championship and League 1. The bottom 3 in the Championship at present are the 3 promoted teams. They were in my view comfortably the best 3 last year and deserved to go up, but are now really struggling. A lot of average clubs, throwing a lot of money about and not really progressing. If we get up it will be very hard to stop up.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Is this year that important? Don't get me wrong Cyprus Blade i want it this season.

It is not absolutely essential in my view but it is hugely important - the longer it goes the harder it will get. Firstly, as has been mentioned a lot of the current squad are not good enough for the championship and are out of contract at the end of the season. We don't need to be building a squad to get us out of Div 1 again. The gulf is already quite wide as the promoted sides from last season are finding out. Next season the pigs and rotherham (if they stay in the championship) will be given an extra £5m (the equivalent of 50% of our turnover) from the Premiership TV money (completely negating any advantage 20k gates would give us).and further distancing us from the Division above. If the current average reported turnover in the Championship is £15m the TV money takes that to £20m in 2016-17 at a stroke (double our turnover of 2013). Getting up will be the easier part, staying up will be harder in my view.

 

[Tezza1889]

Getting up and not seriously investing in better players leads to coming back down, 15mill to get out of league one, a further 50 mill to get out of championship, another 100 million to stay in the premier league, 300 million to win it.....

And the numbers allow for buying players who will hold their own in the division above, and can be built around, in effect quality to add more quality too, and just one on its own won't crack the nut..

Some might think the numbers are a bit ropey, but, haven't Fulham got a ten million pound striker in the championship, bet Fulham have spent 30 mill and are still down there..

 

[BushBlade]

Getting up and not seriously investing in better players leads to coming back down, 15mill to get out of league one, a further 50 mill to get out of championship, another 100 million to stay in the premier league, 300 million to win it.....

And the numbers allow for buying players who will hold their own in the division above, and can be built around, in effect quality to add more quality too, and just one on its own won't crack the nut..

Some might think the numbers are a bit ropey, but, haven't Fulham got a ten million pound striker in the championship, bet Fulham have spent 30 mill and are still down there..

I'd argue you need to allow £100m to get out of the Championship. Minimum.

You're competing against clubs that are getting £30m a year parachute payments so just to match them its £30m, to spend so much it makes a difference, you're looking at £50m a year. That only gives you two goes at it. One bad managerial appointment and you've fucked it.
Obviously clubs go up spending a lot less but it's just random, like Burnley.

There are only two sensible strategies; keep within your budget but make sure you maximise everything you do and cross your fingers. Chances are you won't get promoted but you won't have spent all your money Mark Goldberg style.
Or make sure you have enough money to blow the opposition out of the water, ensure you can sustain a high level of investment for 3-5 years if necessary to allow for mistakes and bad luck.
Otherwise you risk falling between two stools; like Nigel Doughty, (sp) at Forest who lost about £70m before he died or our own KM.

It looks like Tuna man could be making the same mistake. He must be subsidising the pigs but how long is he prepared to do so if they don't go up?

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'd argue you need to allow £100m to get out of the Championship. Minimum.

You're competing against clubs that are getting £30m a year parachute payments so just to match them its £30m, to spend so much it makes a difference, you're looking at £50m a year. That only gives you two goes at it. One bad managerial appointment and you've fucked it.
Obviously clubs go up spending a lot less but it's just random, like Burnley.

There are only two sensible strategies; keep within your budget but make sure you maximise everything you do and cross your fingers. Chances are you won't get promoted but you won't have spent all your money Mark Goldberg style.
Or make sure you have enough money to blow the opposition out of the water, ensure you can sustain a high level of investment for 3-5 years if necessary to allow for mistakes and bad luck.
Otherwise you risk falling between two stools; like Nigel Doughty, (sp) at Forest who lost about £70m before he died or our own KM.

It looks like Tuna man could be making the same mistake. He must be subsidising the pigs but how long is he prepared to do so if they don't go up?

In that estimate of £100m how much is an excellent manager worth compared to an average manager? I reckon an excellent manager can do the job on a third of the budget that an average manager would need. It's not all about money but obviously it helps.

Have we got an excellent manager? Maybe we will be in a position to judge by about this time next season.

 

[blade too long]

My premise is based on what Ive witnessed and the factual placings weve achieved
We are historically a player , never below 11th in div 2 up to 1974
we are 6th in all time collection of league points , but have failed to collate them in any one season apart from in div 4
In bread and butter points collection we have seen more wins and more goals than our neighbours, even on percentage in the league
We have like this century had more top ten finishes than our piggy neighbours, but come unstuck apart from our 2nd place in getting the other 4 or 5 wins to complete the job
Our fan base is second to none , dont think even Liverpool would get 20k in a 4th season in league one
Our achilles heel is and always has been not having enough clout in the boardroom
McCabe has given a lot, but you see other clubs we once challenged , norwich west brom stoke all have 2 or 3 or even 4 board members with financial clout
Leeds got big in the seventies due to having a board all putting in the pot
We have never had that
Its not McCabes fault ,hes just never had a boardroom of people willing ti chuck in 10 m here or 15 m there like has happened at the hawtorns or Brittania
McCabes too some right stick from frustrated fans, but its not really possible to finance a club from one source , unless you own 50 oil wells

 

[Woodwardfan]

How does anybody measure the size of a club or whether a club is a "top club"?

What is truly remarkable about United is the level of interest still generated by the club and the size of the followings at games, home and away, and on fan forums etc, despite 5 years in the third tier.

It never ceases to amaze me how many reasonably sane blokes can spend so much time on this forum despite all the disappointments over the years. Come what may we are still 100% committed and still fuss over formations, player preferences, substitutions, away kits, ticket queues etc. etc. It is a phenomenum.

Today is a routine Tuesday for the 70million folk who live in Britain, but for 20/30000 Blades it is match day, away at the league leaders who are the mighty Burton Albion in the third tier, not a national event by any means but since waking up this morning us Blades have been counting down the hours to kick off, just as we would if we were entertaining Olympiakos at home tonight in the Champions League, or possibly way more so. That's what being a Blade is all about and I reckon we have to be a "top club", no question. Just wait till we are back in Tier 1.

 

[blade too long]

once a fan , its impossible to leave , its a form of deep love, and commitment , , that sadly Ive never given to my missus

 

[BushBlade]

In that estimate of £100m how much is an excellent manager worth compared to an average manager? I reckon an excellent manager can do the job on a third of the budget that an average manager would need. It's not all about money but obviously it helps.

Have we got an excellent manager? Maybe we will be in a position to judge by about this time next season.

There is no such thing as an 'excellent' manager outside the highest echelons.
That is part of the problem. I'm sure Reading thought they had an excellent manager when Adkins was appointed but he turned out to be shit for them.
Whilst a track record gives an indication of ability, it doesn't provide a cast iron guarantee.
So my figures are based on a manager either being good but taking a couple of seasons to sort it out, maybe more (which rarely happens in the championship) or having to replace a manager if it turns out he's the wrong man.
Most people would say the most likely to get you up (and would come to a championship club) would be Allardyce, maybe Bruce, maybe McCarthy. But even then things can go wrong and you'd need to be prepared to give them two seasons. If they still haven't done it, you might keep them or replace them and who you replace them with is, to an extent, dependent on who's interested and available at the time.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

once a fan , its impossible to leave , its a form of deep love, and commitment , , that sadly Ive never given to my missus

She'd be able to shit all over you if you gave her the same billing as our third tier Blades.

 

[blade too long]

She'd be able to shit all over you if you gave her the same billing as our third tier Blades.

she knows her place

 

[Woodwardfan]

There is no such thing as an 'excellent' manager outside the highest echelons.
That is part of the problem. I'm sure Reading thought they had an excellent manager when Adkins was appointed but he turned out to be shit for them.
Whilst a track record gives an indication of ability, it doesn't provide a cast iron guarantee.
So my figures are based on a manager either being good but taking a couple of seasons to sort it out, maybe more (which rarely happens in the championship) or having to replace a manager if it turns out he's the wrong man.
Most people would say the most likely to get you up (and would come to a championship club) would be Allardyce, maybe Bruce, maybe McCarthy. But even then things can go wrong and you'd need to be prepared to give them two seasons. If they still haven't done it, you might keep them or replace them and who you replace them with is, to an extent, dependent on who's interested and available at the time.

Every excellent manager works outside the "highest echelons" at one stage or another. The trick is to attract him at the right time. Usually as a rookie before he has proved himself or after he has had a "blip" elsewhere. I'm afraid we have a record of appointing managers who have generally disproved themselves elsewhere. Of them all Adkins has the best pedigree IMO, so just maybe everything will come together, starting tonight I hope.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

she knows her place

Not reading posts on here then?

 

[Jonboy60]

she knows her place

Top 6.

 

[Jonboy60]

Not seen much of Burton, but obviously up there on merit. Winning tonight would be imo what a good manager can do, as opposed to an average one. Taking out all the variables, injuries, sendings off and sheer bad luck. I think Adkins is that man.

 

[BushBlade]

Every excellent manager works outside the "highest echelons" at one stage or another. The trick is to attract him at the right time. Usually as a rookie before he has proved himself or after he has had a "blip" elsewhere. I'm afraid we have a record of appointing managers who have generally disproved themselves elsewhere. Of them all Adkins has the best pedigree IMO, so just maybe everything will come together, starting tonight I hope.

Yes, the old 'find the next Mourinho' ploy. Just another gamble.

My post was about how much it costs to get out of the Championship if an owner wants to buy their way out. Nothing to do with NA.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Yes, the old 'find the next Mourinho' ploy. Just another gamble.

My post was about how much it costs to get out of the Championship if an owner wants to buy their way out. Nothing to do with NA.

But NA is our latest solution. Believe me not even £100m would do the job if certain managers were appointed. I reckon NA will do it on a lot less. Sorry if your comments were unrelated to SUFC.

 

[BushBlade]

But NA is our latest solution. Believe me not even £100m would do the job if certain managers were appointed. I reckon NA will do it on a lot less. Sorry if your comments were unrelated to SUFC.

Hopefully they'll be more relevant next season.