Our "wingers"

[Bergen Blade]

I'm gleaning from this, that you would advocate Hammond/Basham as a pairing if and when he arrives? Obviously a bit of a horses for courses to that (and maybe the arrival of another CB) but coverage over midfield would suggest those two.

I've not seen enough of Hammond to be honest, not sure how good he is on the ball. I tried to make a small point in the OP when praising Baxter for his 1) composure, 2) skill and 3) passing accuracy/ability. Will we see that kind of playmaking from a Basham/Hammond combination? If they become too limited, we may require more from the wide men, and some more tactical tweaks. Will be interesting to see!

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I would advocate that SouthEssexBlade. There may be instances at home against poorer sides who park the bus that Baxter would still be needed but I think those 2 give us the proper protection to play 442

 

[mosbolad]

Or maybe this............

 

[bornablade]

In our four full years in this division there have been approx. 1.5 decent seasons of good football.

The first season under Wilson (where the attention was mainly on Ched) a great deal of our success came from Matty Lowton bombing down that right flank.

The other decent half a season was from February 2013 when Cloughie signed Brayford and we saw a similar upturn in our performances and results.

Wilson and Clough both failed to exploit this potent outlet in their second seasons and both paid the ultimate penalty.

A player getting to the bye line and crossing into an area where defenders are facing their own goal is a nightmare for that defending team. Even David Weir in his first game had Wetlake (?) getting to the bye line and crossing to McDonald to score that 'scuffed' shot against Notts County.

It's only taken five years.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Or maybe this............

Very interesting mosbolad, but if we were to consider a display of theatrics like this it would have to be a depiction of the Prince handing over his quid, or possibly Jean Hatchet introducing young Evans to the joys of a strap-on.

 

[Balham]

Good post this...

On woolford. I wonder if this might be one of the reasons we are struggling with him in our side. He doesn't seem to have to touch or ability to retain possession as some of the others

The win % must be pretty low in the games he has started (not analysed it but a number of defeats and draws coincided with him starting)

Woolford this season:

Starts:
Gillingham (A) L 0-4 (0-2 when Woolford went off)
Morecambe* (A) W 1-0 (0-0)
Fulham* (A) L 0-3
Hartlepool* (A) D 1-1
Bury (H) L 1-3 (1-1)
Colchester (H) L 2-3 (2-3)
Bradford (A) D 2-2 (0-2)

Subs
Chesterfield (H) W 2-0 (2-0 when Woolford came on)
Blackpool (H) W 2-0 (0-0)
Swindon (A) W 2-0 (0-0)

His record isn't great; we seem to do better when he comes on than when he starts.

Starts
P7 W1 D2 L4 F7 A16

League starts:
P4 W0 D1 L3 F5 A12

Sub appearances (goals scored with Woolford on the pitch)
P3 W2 D1 L0 F4 A0

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Woolford this season:

Starts:
Gillingham (A) L 0-4 (0-2 when Woolford went off)
Morecambe* (A) W 1-0 (0-0)
Fulham* (A) L 0-3
Hartlepool* (A) D 1-1
Bury (H) L 1-3 (1-1)
Colchester (H) L 2-3 (2-3)
Bradford (A) D 2-2 (0-2)

Subs
Chesterfield (H) W 2-0 (2-0 when Woolford came on)
Blackpool (H) W 2-0 (0-0)
Swindon (A) W 2-0 (0-0)

His record isn't great; we seem to do better when he comes on than when he starts.

Starts
P7 W1 D2 L4 F7 A16

League starts:
P4 W0 D1 L3 F5 A12

Sub appearances (goals scored with Woolford on the pitch)
P3 W2 D1 L0 F4 A0

Apologies haha just done the same analysis to try and answer my own question... See other thread and didn't see this.

Certainly an interesting statistical quirk

I know I'd rather we had him to come on rather than start

 

[BushBlade]

What about this for the Burton game?

We don't have the players capable of thriving in that kind of formation

 

[maxtheblade]

Well let's hope Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink doesn't browse these kinds of sites!

Cracking post. Very informative.

Lets hope that he and all other opposition managers do because from the majority of posts & threads they'll get the impression we're utter shite and take it easy against us!

 

[Slim Man]

Or maybe this............

Typical United, just going sideways and back, I thought we'd got rid of the negativity?
GERRIT UPFIELD!!!

 

[blade too long]

http://www.doncaster.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=415162
both the first 2 goals came from wide play

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Woolford this season:

Starts:
Gillingham (A) L 0-4 (0-2 when Woolford went off)
Morecambe* (A) W 1-0 (0-0)
Fulham* (A) L 0-3
Hartlepool* (A) D 1-1
Bury (H) L 1-3 (1-1)
Colchester (H) L 2-3 (2-3)
Bradford (A) D 2-2 (0-2)

Subs
Chesterfield (H) W 2-0 (2-0 when Woolford came on)
Blackpool (H) W 2-0 (0-0)
Swindon (A) W 2-0 (0-0)

His record isn't great; we seem to do better when he comes on than when he starts.

Starts
P7 W1 D2 L4 F7 A16

League starts:
P4 W0 D1 L3 F5 A12

Sub appearances (goals scored with Woolford on the pitch)
P3 W2 D1 L0 F4 A0

If this is to begin to have any validity doesn't it need to be compared with the same stats for other players?

Even then it would be difficult to draw anything other than limited conclusions wouldn't it?

 

[Bergen Blade]

both the first 2 goals came from wide play

True, Coutts got on the ball fairly deep and central, with Alcock overlapping, great goal:

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Excellent reading as always Bergen. Keep up the good work.

There’s been some discussion on here recently about how in a 442, the wide midfielders need to play a bit narrower because if they don’t, the 2 CMs have too much ground to cover.

When I heard the line up, I thought it was the case that the 4 would be quite narrow and we would have to rely on the fullbacks for width. I must confess that I didn’t have a lot of faith in Alcock and Wallace providing that and was perplexed at Freeman’s omission. I assumed that it had been done to combat Donny’s aerial threat at set pieces (we all know Freeman doesn’t like to mess his hair up). Overall, I was a bit concerned about the lack of pace and width in the side but Alcock certainly proved me wrong. I thought he and Coutts linked up superbly in the first half and that was the source of both goals.

I’ve said before that I thought Coutts could only play a wide role if he had plenty of support from an overlapping fullback. I think this thread also goes some way to explaining why JCR was loaned out last season. When we signed Brayford and Coutts, we shifted the focus of wide attacking threat from the winger to the right back. It seemed clear the plan was to have Coutts playing that tucked in right midfield position with Brayford overlapping and that Flynn would provide competition/cover for Coutts whilst Freeman provided competition/ cover for Brayford. Where we’d previously had Alcock playing as a more withdrawn fullback, JCR had that responsibility of beating his man in wide areas but with the new arrangement, he didn’t seem to fit.

The way things worked out, Brayford went to CB, Coutts ended up at CM and it all ended up a but pear shaped but I think that had been the original plan. Although I must say, I’m not a fan od playing that type of winger in a 451 as it doesn’t allow the wide midfielder to get close enough to the forward. Perhaps the plan was to end up a 442 with Davies and Done as the strikers? I guess we’ll never know.

It’s also worth noting how the shape changed when Adams was on the field. We seemed to very between 442 and 433 as gradually, Adams moved to the right, Sammon dropped slightly wide on the left and Flynn tucked in a bit more.

Good post.

Re JCR I think this was the reason given at the time - though it's always fun to make up other reasons.

 

[MobileBlade]

I must say that these are excellent posts by Bergen Blade . Do they come under the banner "Never seen on BM"?

 

[BushBlade]

True, Coutts got on the ball fairly deep and central, with Alcock overlapping, great goal:

View attachment 13601

As you have said yourself, formations are about how we line up without the ball.

That's why it's a 442, because that's how we line up when we haven't got possession. An attacking move starts with regaining possession and so if you regain possession in a wide area, that's how the move will start.

The longer we retain possession, the more the players will tend to move from their defensive positions, when supporting the attack. That's why you're vulnerable when you lose possession in the middle third, as players are moving into their attacking positions and you can be caught on the counter.

I'm not sure that explains it very well as sometimes I find it hard to translate my thoughts into words but I'm trying to say it's possible that you can play narrow generally and still exploit wide areas at times, the variation making it harder for the opponents to defend against.

 

[BushBlade]

True, Coutts got on the ball fairly deep and central, with Alcock overlapping, great goal:

View attachment 13601

And I completely forgot to say the picture is a great example of the midfield playing narrow and retaining possession long enough for Alcock to make the overlapping run.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

And I completely forgot to say the picture is a great example of the midfield playing narrow and retaining possession long enough for Alcock to make the overlapping run.

But surely they should be hoofing it forwards.

Get rid.

 

[BushBlade]

But surely they should be hoofing it forwards.

Get rid.

Billy and Sammon were in pretty good positions for a ball into the box.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Re JCR I think this was the reason given at the time - though it's always fun to make up other reasons.

In defence of the conspiracy theorists, the Collins (and to some extent Butler) debacle goes some way to justifying that. Also, whilst this is a good explanation for him being out of the team you’d still think he was a handy player to have in the squad espectially after Brayford and Coutts ended up central and Flynn and Done were struggling with injury.

 

[mattbianco1]

Using his regular 4-4-2 formation, Adkins played Coutts and Flynn in the wide positions against Doncaster. But how wide are they? Quite often - not very.


Let's look at one passage of play:

It seems like we're going nowhere, Basham even points to Edgar and wants Baxter to pass it back to him:
View attachment 13572


But Baxter has the composure to hold on to the ball for a second. With the skill to sidestep the Doncaster midfielder and the accuracy of his pass, Baxter finds Coutts in some space.
View attachment 13574

Coutts has time and space to pick a pass. His through ball finds Sammon who very nearly scores.
View attachment 13575



This is quite different to traditional wing play, where wingers stayed wide, looked to get on the ball, take on their full back and put crosses into the box.

The shape of our midfield in this situation is more like a box with all four very central. On the attack - our formation has been described as 4-2-2-2:

View attachment 13576

But even this isn't quite accurate, as it doesn't include the movement of the full backs, very often more advanced than even the two "wide", or attacking midfielders.

(This is why formations should primarily describe how a team lines up defensively when the opposition have the ball. On the attack it gets too complicated.)



The above situation certainly got too complicated for Doncaster. They couldn't figure out who was supposed to deal with Coutts.View attachment 13577

Coutts position was right midfield. Normally the opposition left back deals with him. But when Coutts is so deep, so central, it makes less sense for him to break out of the defensive line and push up to challenge him.

So what about the opposition left midfielder? Left midfielders traditionally keep an eye on the opposition right back. And as can be seen, Alcock (white circle) is bombing forward on that side, forcing said midfielder to stay wide and track him. Even though Alcock doesn't get the ball, his run may have been vital in letting Coutts get time and space on the ball.

Summary: Our "wingers" will probably be staying less wide than previously. Our full backs may be the ones who provide real width.

Brilliant post.

This explains why Mceverley has been the one "attempting" to cross from the flanks more than the winger. I think this is also a reason why McEverley simply cannot be our first choice LB.