Goals conceded from open play so far

[Bergen Blade]

We've conceded 8 goals this season and five have come following set pieces. I've included Fulham's last one in that, although it wasn't a direct set piece goal.

So set pieces are something for Adkins and his men to work on, but what about the other three? Is there something common with those too? Has our organisation been good enough?

A lot of people will blame the guy closest to the shooter, our 1st defender, when we concede. Sometimes that's valid, but 1st defenders will not always block all shots.

If he fails, we shouldn't rely on the goalkeeper saving the shot. We should always strive to have a 2nd defender covering behind the 1st defender, ready to challenge the shooter if he gets past him. For the 2nd defender to make a good attempt of this, he must get close.


The first goal conceded from open play came at Gillingham:



Following a throw in Dack gets away from Reed, and is then allowed the space to shoot superbly into the far corner. For me Basham is in the best position to step in and attempt a block, but he's on his heels.


At Peterborough this happened:


Coulibali gets away from Freeman, but Edgar is on his heels and doesn't get close enough to make a block.


At Fulham:



McCormack gets past Dimaio's attempted challenge, and McGahey doesn't get close enough to make a block.


Based on these situations the role of our 2nd defender is something we may need to work more on.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Generally I agree and I often point this out to WHF Jr Sr. We did it a lot last season, and Howard copped for it when the ball started flying in.

I'll just add a few thoughts, not by way of contradiction, more as additional things to consider.

Btw I think the cliche is It takes two mistakes for the opposition to score. There may be some truth in that.

Anyway here goes.

Undeniably a good strike, but he should not have been allowed to get out of the corner where I think he was boxed in by two, or even three, United players. This may lead to potential blockers in this case Basham, or maybe Freeman being too far off the ball.

For me personally the most interesting of the bunch as I saw it play out in real time with a horrible inevitability.

Before this there was a long accurate diagonal ball - we often allow this, Clough's teams did as well, I think it's just part of modern football. Here Freeman was isolated against a very tricky, twisty winger who basically had as much time as he liked to turn him (Freeman) inside out.

At the time I thought it should have been JCR's job to double up, instead he just watches on in static admiration. Edgar is too far off the play, but maybe he's covering space - I don't know.

After this goal the winger ran over to the (manager on the) touchline, as though this was something they'd spotted at half time, and it had worked. I was surprised they didn't work the situation again as this was early in the second half. For me this is mainly JCR's fault, but I'm willing to be told otherwise.

I've only seen this a couple of times but Dimaio's (?) attempts at defending are very poor and again it may be this that leads to the CB being too far back. He could reasonably expect for the player to have been delayed and this would've given him time to get in a better position.

I think in a way we are seeing here (and with Adams as well) young players stepping up from u21s and learning there's more to the professional game: if you don't do the ugly, unsung stuff your team can get punished.

All food for thought.

UTMB

 

[Bergen Blade]

Generally I agree and I often point this out to WHF Jr Sr. We did it a lot last season, and Howard copped for it when the ball started flying in.

I'll just add a few thoughts, not by way of contradiction, more as additional things to consider.

Btw I think the cliche is It takes two mistakes for the opposition to score. There may be some truth in that.

Anyway here goes.

Undeniably a good strike, but he should not have been allowed to get out of the corner where I think he was boxed in by two, or even three, United players. This may lead to potential blockers in this case Basham, or maybe Freeman being too far off the ball.

For me personally the most interesting of the bunch as I saw it play out in real time with a horrible inevitability.

Before this there was a long accurate diagonal ball - we often allow this, Clough's teams did as well, I think it's just part of modern football. Here Freeman was isolated against a very tricky, twisty winger who basically had as much time as he liked to turn him (Freeman) inside out.

At the time I thought it should have been JCR's job to double up, instead he just watches on in static admiration. Edgar is too far off the play, but maybe he's covering space - I don't know.

After this goal the winger ran over to the (manager on the) touchline, as though this was something they'd spotted at half time, and it had worked. I was surprised they didn't work the situation again as this was early in the second half. For me this is mainly JCR's fault, but I'm willing to be told otherwise.

I've only seen this a couple of times but Dimaio's (?) attempts at defending are very poor and again it may be this that leads to the CB being too far back. He could reasonably expect for the player to have been delayed and this would've given him time to get in a better position.

I think in a way we are seeing here (and with Adams as well) young players stepping up from u21s and learning there's more to the professional game: if you don't do the ugly, unsung stuff your team can get punished.

All food for thought.

UTMB

Appreciate your comments WHF. Re, Peterborough goal: I think JCR is focusing on "his" man the overlapping/supporting left back no 17, so for a winger to track him I think was ok.

Edgar is redundant though, has noone to mark and we need him to get in a second defender position, i.e. closer to Freeman.

Regarding the long diagonal ball happens because of our team are concentrating, i.e. pulling in central to minimise available space between our goal and the ball. This means we often accept there being space on the far side, relying on the team quickly moving over if the ball is switched over there.



I agree with your other points regarding the jobs of the first defenders, Reed and Dimaio. Those are weak individual defensive jobs that needs improving.

I am always more interested in the team's organisation though. That's supposed to deal with slip ups like that. Sometimes it'll be a weak challenge, sometimes an unlucky slip, sometimes a genuine superb dribble by the opposition player. In all situations we need to aim for the second defender to be in the right position and ready to act.

It really is a primary principle of zonal defending, and it's something that we should try to be as good at as the best teams, as it takes practice and focus, more than individual ability or physical attributes.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Regarding the long diagonal ball happens because of our team are concentrating, i.e. pulling in central to minimise available space between our goal and the ball. This means we often accept there being space on the far side, relying on the team quickly moving over if the ball is switched over there.

This seems to be what happens, but as the ball lands at the feet of an unmarked winger in a lot of space right in front of us me and WHF Jr Sr notice it. Like I said it's not an Adkins thing, I think it's a football thing, it was noticeable under Clough.

I think one difference/factor in the Peterborough goal was that their player received the pass inside the box.



The wide player has just received the ball - should JCR drop back and cover, or should Edgar (out of picture) move across? Maybe we should have a poll.

That doesn't usually happen. It's more often out wide with space to run into that we then close down as quickly as we can. I've looked at it again and I think JCR should be double teaming the winger and Edgar blocking any shot. This means JCR leaving his man but in this situation maybe he should've done that. Don't know. It would just look unusual to me to have the CB double teaming.

This is unusual because the ball is so far advanced (inside the box as mentioned) and we were no longer blocking a cross, rather, we were coping, or not coping, with a direct threat on goal.

As for the OP, and really the substantial point of the thread, I think the point about second defenders is right, they need to get closer quicker.

 

[Bartleby]

Interesting analyses. I also thought Basham was at fault for the Dack goal when I saw the video at the time - seemed to turn his back on the ball - but as it was such a car crash of a result anyway I couldn't be bothered to mention it at the time. He made the comment about the team lacking heart after the game, and was including himself, so maybe he felt a bit guilty about that. Certainly think they have been closing down better since.

 

[Finnieston]

Bring back the sweeper........He watched every through ball right and left.
Is he what you call the second defender?

Interesting post.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Bergen, I really enjoy reading these snippets you post and for me, these are the one area where this board does eclipse blades mad (as well as the IT issues) . The banter over there can be great but nobody offers any analysis of this sort of depth. However, I would like to present some alternative views.

Dack’s goal. I agree Basham should have been the one to close Dack down more as even though Freeman is closer, he appears to be marking a man. However, in Basham’s defence, I don’t think he could reasonably expect Dack to wriggle through into that position as easily as he did. The lack of a meaningful challenge from Reed and (Woolford?) when Dack seemed to have nowhere to go coupled with the individual quality of Dack were bigger issues for me.

Cool runnings’ goal. I’m gonna defend Edgar here. I don’t think he can go and double up with Freeman because if he does, he leaves a gaping hole in the middle of the area for any Posh player to run in for an unmarked tap in. I think he needs to hold that position and keep his discipline in terms of the shape of the back four. Possibly JCR or the right sided one of the central midfielders could have come back and helped Freeman out but that’s probably being hypercritical and I think we need to give some credit for individual brilliance again.

McCormack- I’ve only seen this once. However, from the picture, it looks like McGahey is the only player that could close down but again, being one of the centre halves, it means he has to leave his position within that back four potentially leaving space for an unmarked runner. Therefore, it puts him in a difficult position. But that raises a question as to whether the entire back 4 is too deep? But I think against the pace of McCormack and Dembele and the frequency with which Dembele was getting in behind them, there is an argument for dropping deeper.

I think, in an ideal world, you have a defensive midfielder positioned to combat these sort of shots from distance as Basham was in the first goal (but didn’t get close enough to stop him). But as we play 442, we sometimes don't have a midfielder back in that position. It's a trade off for having the extra striker. I think the nothing challenges from Reed and Dimaio were certainly factors.

Another observation is that all three came from our right hand side. With Reed and Dimaio being involved in two and Freeman being the right back, there might be an argument to say that lack of experience say people skinned too easily in the build up.


All things considered though, that’s three goals from open play conceded in six games and all three had an element of individual quality about them rather than being one on ones, free headers or tap ins. I can live with that if we can restrict teams like that all season. It’s the number we’ve conceded from set pieces which is more of an issue. However, given that we haven’t conceded from a set piece with Howard in the team, again, I’m not too concerned. In fact, we’ve only conceded one goal in four games with Howard in the team. I’d like another centre half to partner Edgar to shore things up a bit more but all in all, I don’t think things are looking bad. I’m just a little bit concerned about lack of depth in certain areas, namely, centre half and out wide or more specifically, pacey wide options. Woolford etc can play there but we only really have JCR and Adams who offer any sort of pacey threat going forward.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bring back the sweeper........He watched every through ball right and left.
Is he what you call the second defender?

Interesting post.

Sweepers were used in defences using man marking. In man marking systems there is less focus on covering, but in a way that's what the sweepers did.

Nowadays most teams use zonal marking, always trying to establish:

1st defender - the guy pressing/challenging the man on the ball
2nd defender - the guy covering behind the 1st defender
3rd defender - those behind, marking men or space/zones

 

[BushBlade]

Gillingham I agree with. Bash should be closing down quicker.

At Peterborough, JCR should be making an angled run towards the player to block the pass back into the Posh player stood near the corner of the box and to help force the player in possession towards the touchline.

Fulham, McGahey should be closing him down but he shouldn't be in that position with no-one near him.

 

[Finnieston]

Sweepers were used in defences using man marking. In man marking systems there is less focus on covering, but in a way that's what the sweepers did.

Nowadays most teams use zonal marking, always trying to establish:

1st defender - the guy pressing/challenging the man on the ball
2nd defender - the guy covering behind the 1st defende
3rd defender - those behind, marking men or space/zones

Thanks for the info........The modern game.......its come on a bit.

 

[Bartleby]

Thanks for the info........The modern game.......its come on a bit.

It has - as has the ability to analyse it ad infinitum on t'internet

 

[OllyBlade]

For the McCormack goal Dimaio's challenge is really very poor indeed, I would only apportion very minor blame to McGahey. Whilst he should be looking to make a block on a shot, players have to trust their teammates to do a proper job. I think the Peterborough goal is different for example, Edgar had time to see that Freeman was in trouble. Dimaio just dived in and I don't think McGahey had much time to react.

 

[Barney]

Coincidentally I had similar thoughts after watching the Fulham footage and McCormack's goal you show on the last picture. The CB closest to the ball has to come out and attempt a block in those circumstances, the space between the opposition player and the CB is far too much, it needs to be drastically decreased. On the other hand though, it's important to remember that in some scenarios and particularly when the opposing player is at more of a challenging angle as Dack is in the first picture, that if the CB comes and attempts a challenge, this will inevitably free up space for a pass in behind for one of their strikers to run on to. Or it could allow an easy square pass to a player in more of a threatening position - take Gills no.15 (?) for example - Dack could have chosen to square it and more often than not teams this season and in this league are more likely to score from the no. 15's position than Dack's position.

So whilst I definitely agree with regards to the last 2 pictures and when there is a clear direct attempt on goal threat, I think it's worth limiting an attempted block to those situations rather than jump out an attempt a block at a player in Dack's position for example when the ball is easily passed on to someone with more of a realistic chance of scoring (applies more in lower leagues where the quality is less). Because I think most agree that the Dack goal is a goal of incredible quality and such goals from similar angles will be much less common than one's where there is a direct threat on goal (last image) or the opposition player is as close to the goal (image 2).

 

[SUFC Handsworth]

Since Edgar's arrival I would say we've looked much better defending set plays and goals conceded as none. The goal at Peterborough was down to skill from the winger, not dealing with a ball into the box. Fulham game I would take no notice of whatsoever, he put a joke defence out (rookie ch and an out of his depth left-back in the centre was never going to keep a clean sheet - only a fool would think they could, Mr Clough) to keep the proper defence fit for Saturday.

That said it's only been 3 league games, so it's a bit early to declare problem solved but they do seem better. Another solid centre half and I'd say we'd not be far off being competent dealing with set plays.

 

[blade too long]

theres times you just hold your hands up and say that was a screamer

gills 4th and poshs goals were both brilliant

hindsight might offer an option to have stopped them but in the nano second they are struck theres little that can be done
much the same way posh could do nothing about Sammons goal

 

[Balham]

theres times you just hold your hands up and say that was a screamer

gills 4th and poshs goals were both brilliant

hindsight might offer an option to have stopped them but in the nano second they are struck theres little that can be done
much the same way posh could do nothing about Sammons goal

True, but there's a real pattern emerging of a player cutting in from the left wing (our right) and scoring across the keeper. It's happened at Gillingham, Peterborough and Fulham.

If we work on getting the full back and centre half closer that might stop these shots being taken in the first place - they're all taken by technically decent right footed players cutting in - part of the problem is that the right backs have sold themselves down the line and allowed the forwards to cut infield.

 

[Bergen Blade]

True, but there's a real pattern emerging of a player cutting in from the left wing (our right) and scoring across the keeper. It's happened at Gillingham, Peterborough and Fulham.

If we work on getting the full back and centre half closer that might stop these shots being taken in the first place - they're all taken by technically decent right footed players cutting in - part of the problem is that the right backs have sold themselves down the line and allowed the forwards to cut infield.

My feeling is also that more and more goals are scored in this manner. Right footers are often playing on the left and vice versa, looking to cut inside rather than sprinting down the line and getting crosses in. We need to do more than applaud these goals as they fly in. A lot can be done with good organisation, keeping the right distance between players and concentrating.

Regarding the goals mentioned, all three, Edgar, Basham and McGahey, stop, hoping that they are big enough to block the shot from where they stand, rather than getting closer to the shooter. It's a bit like chosing to position the wall more than ten yards from the free kick.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

My feeling is also that more and more goals are scored in this manner. Right footers are often playing on the left and vice versa, looking to cut inside rather than sprinting down the line and getting crosses in. We need to do more than applaud these goals as they fly in. A lot can be done with good organisation, keeping the right distance between players and concentrating.

Regarding the goals mentioned, all three, Edgar, Basham and McGahey, stop, hoping that they are big enough to block the shot from where they stand, rather than getting closer to the shooter. It's a bit like chosing to position the wall more than ten yards from the free kick.

The BBC used to have an online Football League Goals of the Week either last season or the season before and a high proportion were variations on this cutting in and shooting theme.

 

[blade67]

Really interesting OP and responses.

For my part I think it's difficult to blame the centre half for the Fulham goal as he can reasonably expect a better tackle from Dimao.

In addition I don't think you can describe the other Fulham goal as a set play, that was just "one of those things".

Generally the point is well made though. A lot of goals get scored by the cut in and shoot approach and every team needs to develop strategies to negate the threat. It's interesting that all three have come down our right but I'm not sure if that is coincidence or a pattern. Time will tell.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Just read this thread for the first time.

My first reaction is that we are missing Michael Doyle. Big spaces between midfield and back line.

Collins wasn't on the pitch for the later two and he sniffs out these type of situations and charges the shots down.

Their type of experience is hard to teach.

 

[Sirius]

Sweepers were used in defences using man marking. In man marking systems there is less focus on covering, but in a way that's what the sweepers did.

Nowadays most teams use zonal marking, always trying to establish:

1st defender - the guy pressing/challenging the man on the ball
2nd defender - the guy covering behind the 1st defender
3rd defender - those behind, marking men or space/zones

Bergs , a little late in life, I have learned so much about the modern game through reading, and disecting your posts. Thank you. As a matter of interest are you connected with coaching in any way? If not. Why not?

 

[Erad]

Regarding the Edgar one, he was probably expecting a cross from the byline, in which case he was in the perfect position. When the player cut inside he didn't have time to alter his position.

If he'd positioned expecting the cut inside but the ball was crossed from the byline he would have been way out of position.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Sweepers were used in defences using man marking. In man marking systems there is less focus on covering, but in a way that's what the sweepers did.

Nowadays most teams use zonal marking, always trying to establish:

1st defender - the guy pressing/challenging the man on the ball
2nd defender - the guy covering behind the 1st defender
3rd defender - those behind, marking men or space/zones

In any football system and since football was first played, if a man is free approaching goal having beaten a man then the nearest defender has a duty to close him down regardless of whether he is man marking or marking his zone, then it is the duty of any further players to re-assess their positioning. The player closing down the shot has to throw himself at the challenge if need be. Of all our players I think only Collins and Kennedy could call it their trade-mark and Doyle last season. Modern players seem to have lost their "sense of duty" in this respect. In the Premier League Cahill and Terry are lauded for throwing themselves at the ball as though it's something special.

Another poor development in modern football is the failure of full backs to put their body into a tackle to block a cross, they usually just dangle a foot or don't even bother to do that. The Premier League players are the worst for that.

 

[jt64]

Another poor development in modern football is the failure of full backs to put their body into a tackle to block a cross, they usually just dangle a foot or don't even bother to do that. The Premier League players are the worst for that.

If you're a Premier League player, do you think:

a) I'll make a minor effort to block the cross, knowing that my centre backs/keeper will deal with the cross
b) I'll fly in to a block, after all these hundred grand a week players have no skill other than to cross, oh shit he's turned back on me and into the box, bugger he's scored/assisted, why am I suddenly on loan at Scunthorpe?

 

[Woodwardfan]

If you're a Premier League player, do you think:

a) I'll make a minor effort to block the cross, knowing that my centre backs/keeper will deal with the cross
b) I'll fly in to a block, after all these hundred grand a week players have no skill other than to cross, oh shit he's turned back on me and into the box, bugger he's scored/assisted, why am I suddenly on loan at Scunthorpe?

Ok just let them cross it. I could do that.

 

[blade too long]

only conceded 1 GOAL IN THE LEAGUE SINCE DAY 1

and it was a superb hit

we have no problems under + Nigels tutelage

cant count the league cup , would have been too obvious scoring 3 own goals as well as the 2 sending offs and 10 changes