What changed between Swindon dressing room and the meeting with the Board?

[Bladesman]

I'll be honest I couldn't give a toss about the race of our squad members but I think the idea that clough was racist is wide of the mark. Che is half cast, he tried to sign mason Bennett who is black and although he didn't play him that often he did sign JCR. It was just a cheap way of attacking clough to say he was racist

Exactly. Knock Clough for tactics, transfers, man management etc but calling him racist is just rubbish. It is just a cheap shot and I'm sure it's not the first time that accusation has been levelled at a Blades manager.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Should we get a black manager?

Why ? Why not?

I'll be honest I couldn't give a toss about the race of our squad members but I think the idea that clough was racist is wide of the mark. Che is half cast, he tried to sign mason Bennett who is black and although he didn't play him that often he did sign JCR. It was just a cheap way of attacking clough to say he was racist

I would never call anybody racist without knowing them well enough to form an opinion.

My point is that our team will be all the better for having black players in it. Black men have physical attributes which are well suited to the game of football. Black men and women formed 3% of the UK population in the 2011 census and yet numerous teams who visit Bramall lane have half a team of black players and often are the best players in the team. The England squad has plenty of black players and they provide the real creativity and firepower and also defensive strength- Chamberlain, Wellbeck, Walcott, Sturridge,Sterling, Smalling, Gibbs, Clyne, Bertrand, Delph, Townsend, Berahino. Players of Afro-Caribbean descent form a third of the recently named England squad.

We rarely fielded a team with a single black player in it last season and I think we would have fared better with more. I also think we would have fared better with more tall players, more strong players, more creative players and more pacey players.

I have covered this point a couple of times over the months. On this thread I mentioned it in passing as a source the new manager will tap into to improve the team. I regret that it has become a distraction from the main theme of the thread which has been a good discussion enabling us all to work out what may or may not have happened between the Board and Clough. Last season Ryce got a few games and Che just a few. O'grady had a couple of games. Swindon who toppled us in the play-offs played at least 5 black players while we brought our one on after 85 minutes of the second leg. I think their black players were a big factor taking them to Wembley over the two legs and I think we'll be better when we have a few in our team.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I'll be honest I couldn't give a toss about the race of our squad members but I think the idea that clough was racist is wide of the mark. Che is half cast, he tried to sign mason Bennett who is black and although he didn't play him that often he did sign JCR. It was just a cheap way of attacking clough to say he was racist

Half caste is a pretty racist term.

 

[Bladesway]

It gets worse !!!! Terry Kennedy has died ?

What about Ken Dodds Dad's Dog?

 

[Bladesway]

Why ? Why not?



I would never call anybody racist without knowing them well enough to form an opinion.

My point is that our team will be all the better for having black players in it. Black men have physical attributes which are well suited to the game of football. Black men and women formed 3% of the UK population in the 2011 census and yet numerous teams who visit Bramall lane have half a team of black players and often are the best players in the team. The England squad has plenty of black players and they provide the real creativity and firepower and also defensive strength- Chamberlain, Wellbeck, Walcott, Sturridge,Sterling, Smalling, Gibbs, Clyne, Bertrand, Delph, Townsend, Berahino. Players of Afro-Caribbean descent form a third of the recently named England squad.

We rarely fielded a team with a single black player in it last season and I think we would have fared better with more. I also think we would have fared better with more tall players, more strong players, more creative players and more pacey players.

I have covered this point a couple of times over the months. On this thread I mentioned it in passing as a source the new manager will tap into to improve the team. I regret that it has become a distraction from the main theme of the thread which has been a good discussion enabling us all to work out what may or may not have happened between the Board and Clough. Last season Ryce got a few games and Che just a few. O'grady had a couple of games. Swindon who toppled us in the play-offs played at least 5 black players while we brought our one on after 85 minutes of the second leg. I think their black players were a big factor taking them to Wembley over the two legs and I think we'll be better when we have a few in our team.

A ball of confusion, that's what the world is today.

Sorry but am I the only one uncomfortable saying we should have more black players because of their "attributes"? Shouldn't we just have the best eleven players on the pitch regardless of colour? Anyone who thinks any manager doesn't think that way needs help.

 

[LSF]

A ball of confusion, that's what the world is today.

Sorry but am I the only one uncomfortable saying we should have more black players because of their "attributes"? Shouldn't we just have the best eleven players on the pitch regardless of colour?

No, I don't think you are the only one uncomfortable, I'd say the majority are.
And yes, I'd say most people would agree that the best Xl should have no race, colour agenda.
As ever the poster is fishing for effect and all the pages of replies he gets are worn as a badge of honour.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

A ball of confusion, that's what the world is today.

Sorry but am I the only one uncomfortable saying we should have more black players because of their "attributes"? Shouldn't we just have the best eleven players on the pitch regardless of colour? Anyone who thinks any manager doesn't think that way needs help.

I think we need a couple of Germans for their ruthless efficiency.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Why ? Why not?



I would never call anybody racist without knowing them well enough to form an opinion.

My point is that our team will be all the better for having black players in it. Black men have physical attributes which are well suited to the game of football. Black men and women formed 3% of the UK population in the 2011 census and yet numerous teams who visit Bramall lane have half a team of black players and often are the best players in the team. The England squad has plenty of black players and they provide the real creativity and firepower and also defensive strength- Chamberlain, Wellbeck, Walcott, Sturridge,Sterling, Smalling, Gibbs, Clyne, Bertrand, Delph, Townsend, Berahino. Players of Afro-Caribbean descent form a third of the recently named England squad.

We rarely fielded a team with a single black player in it last season and I think we would have fared better with more. I also think we would have fared better with more tall players, more strong players, more creative players and more pacey players.

I have covered this point a couple of times over the months. On this thread I mentioned it in passing as a source the new manager will tap into to improve the team. I regret that it has become a distraction from the main theme of the thread which has been a good discussion enabling us all to work out what may or may not have happened between the Board and Clough. Last season Ryce got a few games and Che just a few. O'grady had a couple of games. Swindon who toppled us in the play-offs played at least 5 black players while we brought our one on after 85 minutes of the second leg. I think their black players were a big factor taking them to Wembley over the two legs and I think we'll be better when we have a few in our team.

We are at the bottom of the barrel with this one . Its bordering on the ridiculous . Lets just leave it to the manager to bring footballers in . Starting to get a bit uncomfortable for everybody.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

A ball of confusion, that's what the world is today.

Sorry but am I the only one uncomfortable saying we should have more black players because of their "attributes"? Shouldn't we just have the best eleven players on the pitch regardless of colour? Anyone who thinks any manager doesn't think that way needs help.

I think many black players (gross generalisation, I know, I know) are face to goal / run at 'em / anti-Coutts / flair players. I think it's these attributes that Clough doesn't place enough emphasis on, hence a lower proportion of black footballers in his teams.

The Che Adams situation sums this up, for me.

UTB

 

[Bladesway]

I think many black players (gross generalisation, I know, I know) are face to goal / run at 'em / anti-Coutts / flair players. I think it's these attributes that Clough doesn't place enough emphasis on, hence a lower proportion of black footballers in his teams.

The Che Adams situation sums this up, for me.

UTB

Not unlike Ronaldo or Messi, or Rooney, Aguero, Suarez, Walcott, Henry? Fact is some are black, some are South American, some are European. Ethnicity doesn't even begin to come into it. I know you covered yourself but come on Alco, you can do better than that. I'm not being PC but when people (not you I know) start inadvertently calling the manager because of the colour of the players he picks we head down a very slippery slope. I can talk about almost any criticism of Clough and any other manager but I won't buy into the "there aren't enough blacks in his team" argument because its utter bollocks on all fronts.

WWF has form on this one and it doesn't do his other decent arguments any favour whatsoever.

 

[alcoblade]

Not unlike Ronaldo or Messi, or Rooney, Aguero, Suarez, Walcott, Henry? Fact is some are black, some are South American, some are European. Ethnicity doesn't even begin to come into it. I know you covered yourself but come on Alco, you can do better than that. I'm not being PC but when people (not you I know) start inadvertently calling the manager because of the colour of the players he picks we head down a very slippery slope. I can talk about almost any criticism of Clough and any other manager but I won't buy into the "there aren't enough blacks in his team" argument because its utter bollocks on all fronts.

WWF has form on this one and it doesn't do his other decent arguments any favour whatsoever.

I believe what I wrote and it's not intended as a criticism. I appreciate I generalised, but fuck being politcally correct, it's just the way I view it.

Clough likes a certain type of player. Lots of black players don't fit it. It don't think there's a hint of racism in Clough. He's just applying statistics in a world that is so pc ( not aimed at you) that it avoids such basic discussion.

UTB

 

[diplomat]

I think we need a couple of Germans for their ruthless efficiency.

Maybe a Spaniard whom we could awaken from his siesta moments before kick off?

 

[ScoobBlade]

Half caste is a pretty racist term.

What term would you prefer

 

[ScoobBlade]

My point is that our team will be all the better for having black players in it. Black men have physical attributes which are well suited to the game of football. Black men and women formed 3% of the UK population in the 2011 census and yet numerous teams who visit Bramall lane have half a team of black players and often are the best players in the team. The England squad has plenty of black players and they provide the real creativity and firepower and also defensive strength- Chamberlain, Wellbeck, Walcott, Sturridge,Sterling, Smalling, Gibbs, Clyne, Bertrand, Delph, Townsend, Berahino

The first line about our team being better for having black players, our team would benefit from having better players in it and we should look for their ability level before their race, if the best player in the market is white it's just the way it is, there doesn't have to be an agenda.
Regarding creativity and firepower I ask you to look at the Spanish Side of recent years, or Argentinian sides over the years. Few black players but one or two creative ones.

 

[bornablade]

What term would you prefer

Mixed race

 

[Bladesway]

I believe what I wrote and it's not intended as a criticism. I appreciate I generalised, but fuck being politcally correct, it's just the way I view it.

Clough likes a certain type of player. Lots of black players don't fit it. It don't think there's a hint of racism in Clough. He's just applying statistics in a world that is so pc ( not aimed at you) that it avoids such basic discussion.

UTB

What I like about you Alco is you are unerringly honest in your opinion. Wish more people were the same. I don't always agree with you but I do look forward to your comment.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best sprinters in the world.

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best marathon runners in the world, the best heavy boxers, the best basketball players etc etc.

If you accept those comments then you will take my comments in the spirit intended.

By not recruiting our fair share of black players we are playing at a disadvantage surely.

What would the England squad look like without the 7 black players? No need to even think about it and there is no reason not to sign black players either. I repeat we will be a better team when we do.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best sprinters in the world.

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best marathon runners in the world, the best heavy boxers, the best basketball players etc etc.

If you accept those comments then you will take my comments in the spirit intended.

By not recruiting our fair share of black players we are playing at a disadvantage surely.

What would the England squad look like without the 7 black players? No need to even think about it and there is no reason not to sign black players either. I repeat we will be a better team when we do.

Not again.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

Not again.

UTB

Just back from the Test Match!!

 

[Woodwardfan]

Just back from the Test Match and everybody is misunderstanding the core point I'm making; either that or uncomfortable about commenting.

Of course I understand people see "black" and immediately tune in to certain trains of thought. That is not what I'm on about if only my posts are read carefully. Anyway it is a past issue and the issue will be addressed, it is common sense and English football in 2015. they are the best players in certain roles.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Just watching the Cup Final - Arsenal had 5 black players and Villa had 8.

We only ever had 1 - on the bench.

 

[Grappler]

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best sprinters in the world.

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best marathon runners in the world, the best heavy boxers, the best basketball players etc etc.

If you accept those comments then you will take my comments in the spirit intended.

By not recruiting our fair share of black players we are playing at a disadvantage surely.

What would the England squad look like without the 7 black players? No need to even think about it and there is no reason not to sign black players either. I repeat we will be a better team when we do.

Except for the Klitschko Brothers who dominated heavyweight boxing for over a decade mate!

 

[Dkc]

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best sprinters in the world.

Black men have physical attributes which make them the best marathon runners in the world, the best heavy boxers, the best basketball players etc etc.

If you accept those comments then you will take my comments in the spirit intended.

By not recruiting our fair share of black players we are playing at a disadvantage surely.

What would the England squad look like without the 7 black players? No need to even think about it and there is no reason not to sign black players either. I repeat we will be a better team when we do.

You can't characterise all "black" athletes as having these attributes. Men with origins in East Africa, places like Kenya and Ethiopia, are often good at endurance running, and those who can trace their ancestry to West Africa often excel at different sports like sprinting and football. But, I repeat, it's not true of ALL black men by a long shot. As this is the case you simply can't say that we must sign more black players.

It's just as racist as saying we need more white players in the team.

If indeed ALL black players had the skills you describe, I'd have no problem with your comments. But they don't. There are plenty of white players who have the same skill sets you describe. In this society you simply can't say we need to sign players based on their skin colour. As well as being unacceptable it's simply not logical

As for your comments about boxing, there were certainly lots of good US black heavyweights (and Lennox Lewis of course) in the latter half of the last century but there are now more Latino and white fighters too. Wladimir Klitscho, a white heavyweight, has seen off every fighter put in his way for the past decade. He's got a better record than Ali.

Can't you see that your opinion is illogical, given that some black players aren't that good and some white players have all the attributes you bestow on black players?

 

[Woodwardfan]

You can't characterise all "black" athletes as having these attributes. Men with origins in East Africa, places like Kenya and Ethiopia, are often good at endurance running, and those who can trace their ancestry to West Africa often excel at different sports like sprinting and football. But, I repeat, it's not true of ALL black men by a long shot. As this is the case you simply can't say that we must sign more black players.

It's just as racist as saying we need more white players in the team.

If indeed ALL black players had the skills you describe, I'd have no problem with your comments. But they don't. There are plenty of white players who have the same skill sets you describe. In this society you simply can't say we need to sign players based on their skin colour. As well as being unacceptable it's simply not logical

As for your comments about boxing, there were certainly lots of good US black heavyweights (and Lennox Lewis of course) in the latter half of the last century but there are now more Latino and white fighters too. Wladimir Klitscho, a white heavyweight, has seen off every fighter put in his way for the past decade. He's got a better record than Ali.

Can't you see that your opinion is illogical, given that some black players aren't that good and some white players have all the attributes you bestow on black players?

I never said ALL , I'm sure by a number of the reactions above my points are being misunderstood. However I note that I am getting nil suuport for my points!

 

[Dkc]

It's like the manager of an accounting firm saying that they should employ more Jews, as they are good with money.

It's true that accountancy, trading and money-management have been traditional Jewish occupations, and many Jews have and do excel in these professions. But that fact shouldn't mean you should preclude everyone else from a vacant position. Everyone who has the required skill set deserves to be considered.

 

[Woodwardfan]

It's like the manager of an accounting firm saying that they should employ more Jews, as they are good with money.

It's true that accountancy, trading and money-management have been traditional Jewish occupations, and many Jews have and do excel in these professions. But that fact shouldn't mean you should preclude everyone else from a vacant position. Everyone who has the required skill set deserves to be considered.

DKc at no stage did I suggest we have an all-black team and preclude white players. At no stage did I say all black people can run 100 metres in 10 seconds or win heavyweight boxing bouts. For others, at no stage did I suggest Clough was racist or say we should look for black quotas or anything like that.

Let me try to restore my "form" on this and make the following statement which illustrates exactly what I was trying to say throughout this thread :-

"Over the course of the next couple of years the new manager at SUFC will sign around 15 new players to enhance the quality of the squad. Urgently needed are taller and stronger central defenders, a big strong ball winner in midfield and goal scoring strikers who have pace, mobility and the skill to beat a man.

The manager and his scouts will comb the open market in the search for better players and it is highly likely, indeed certain, that amongst those urgent signings and also the subsequent intake of players to replace those on expiring contracts, that a number of those new players in key positions will be black."

Most English league managers and fans would agree with that statement because that is how it is at almost every club in the country.

That's all I've been trying to say and I suppose it's a lesson for me to communicate better and others to read something for what it is without drawing in other connotations. Having said that the subject matter was a minefield for all the wrong reasons but that is not a reason to avoid it. IMO Clough failed to draw players from the whole available market and seemed stuck in the tramlines of those three prime sources and blinkered to extremes.

 

[Dkc]

it is highly likely, indeed certain, that amongst those urgent signings and also the subsequent intake of players to replace those on expiring contracts, that a number of those new players in key positions will be black."
Most English league managers and fans would agree with that statement because that is how it is at almost every club in the country.

It was all good, very good, until then.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Okay WWF i watched QPR a few weeks ago and over half the team were 'black' players and were employed by a 'black' manager. They got relegated! But according to your logic they should be world beaters?

*your logic where you say we'll be a better team when we sign more black players*

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Black men have physical attributes which are well suited to the game of football.

Wtf?

 

[Pierre's PC]

This thread is really starting to go places.

Asians are good at maths too.

Racial stereotyping is the way forward and yet it was Clough who was the supposed racist?