Clough Poll

[Hague Blade]

It's all about opinions Davie, you're entitled to yours. Let's see what happens next season. A continual round of "I told you so" becomes tiresome and has no value.

itsinyerblood I generally enjoy your posts, but you're wrong here. The nub of Post #224 is not opinion, it's fact. Davie Blade might have exaggerated for effect, but the point is entirely valid - Clough's signings last summer were poor. He promised quality not quantity - but we got the latter, and only one first team regular out of 11 signings is a woeful hit rate.

Let's see what happens next season of course - hope springs eternal, even at Bramall Lane - but for you and those others who appear to want to defend Clough at all costs to keep refusing to recognise his mistakes is equally tiresome and lacking value. We didn't get promoted and some of that at least is down to poor management - including but not limited to a very shaky record in the transfer market. Can we agree to that ?

 

[itsinyerblood]

itsinyerblood I generally enjoy your posts, but you're wrong here. The nub of Post #224 is not opinion, it's fact. Davie Blade might have exaggerated for effect, but the point is entirely valid - Clough's signings last summer were poor. He promised quality not quantity - but we got the latter, and only one first team regular out of 11 signings is a woeful hit rate.

Let's see what happens next season of course - hope springs eternal, even at Bramall Lane - but for you and those others who appear to want to defend Clough at all costs to keep refusing to recognise his mistakes is equally tiresome and lacking value. We didn't get promoted and some of that at least is down to poor management - including but not limited to a very shaky record in the transfer market. Can we agree to that ?

If you actually read my posts you'll find that I'm not uncritical of Clough. He's fallible, he's made mistakes, most managers do. My comments tend to address the wave of criticism that takes constructive criticism, turns it on it's head, and offers nothing more than name calling or worse. Perhaps your comments about myself, which you're entitled to make, should attempt to be even-handed and comment on this type of vindictiveness to add a little balance.

My comments regarding Davie's post wasn't to take issue with the obviousness of his comments - facts are facts after all - but to refer to just another in a long line of his posts that continue to attack Clough. As I said, and I'll repeat again, if Davie wishes to use Clough as his bete noir that's his affair. That was the point I was making. It might be advisable to follow Davie's posts, that way you'll see they're predictable and never less than eager to take a dig at Clough.

Clough will be judged by what happens as the new season begins. If he fails he'll be sacked, and you won't find me defending him at all costs. It's a shame you imagine I would. If he succeeds he'll deserve the rewards that come with this success. I think that's an uncomplicated equation don't you?

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

The conversation was intended to be about the Northern Lights and of no interest to other posters.

I'm interested in going to see the Northern Lights actually

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'm interested in going to see the Northern Lights actually

Hey Bergen. Could you do a couple of paragraphs on the most cost effective way of seeing the Northern lights please.

How do I tag anybody?

 

[cahill]

Clough in. Lets see how next season goes. Looking forward to it mi sen. Can't live with it can't.........etc

One thing's for certain it won't be expensive for us old uns

 

[Davie Blade]

just changed opinion on back of doyle fiasco
never a big fan of MD but he was here for about 5 years and club captain..
appalling management.. shocking disrespect
f@ck off

great point well made,
Not thought of that but gosh it is so so so so so sooooooooo bad.
Who'd want to work for a Christopher Hunt like that?
have ten likes!

Motivated me to send a Thank you card to MD.

 

[AlBlade]

Clough will be judged by what happens as the new season begins. If he fails he'll be sacked, and you won't find me defending him at all costs. It's a shame you imagine I would. If he succeeds he'll deserve the rewards that come with this success. I think that's an uncomplicated equation don't you?

As most who have read my posts will know I am not a big fan of NC, however, I do understand that different people have different views. With regard to "If he fails [next season] he will be sacked" - what would you consider failure?

From my perspective, NC this season couldn't have been a bigger failure if he tried (dismal transfers with huge amounts of money wasted, major fall outs with players, poor tactically in League One games, dull brand of football, 20 points off automatic promotion, no centre backs at the club, etc. etc.); so for those who want Clough to have another season, what would you consider as a failure and grounds for his dismissal this time next year?

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Hey Bergen. Could you do a couple of paragraphs on the most cost effective way of seeing the Northern lights please.

How do I tag anybody?

You tag like this - put the @ sign before the user name Woodwardfan and you get Woodwardfan. You'll notice that as you type the username you'll get a list of suggestions. Also tyou can private message people - see conversations on your profile

Regarding the northern lights, just put "Northern Lights", or "Northern Lights Holidays" into your search bar - preferably on a Google browser IMO

 

[itsinyerblood]

As most who have read my posts will know I am not a big fan of NC, however, I do understand that different people have different views. With regard to "If he fails [next season] he will be sacked" - what would you consider failure?

From my perspective, NC this season couldn't have been a bigger failure if he tried (dismal transfers with huge amounts of money wasted, major fall outs with players, poor tactically in League One games, dull brand of football, 20 points off automatic promotion, no centre backs at the club, etc. etc.); so for those who want Clough to have another season, what would you consider as a failure and grounds for his dismissal this time next year?

Hi AlBlade, all fair comments. As for what I'd consider failure, not getting promoted must surely be the number one aim? Where posts concerning Clough are concerned they are often rhetorical, understandably so given the level of expectation. I make this point not because I want to demonstrate a talent for the bleedin' obvious, but to save a circular, point scoring exchange between us.

So, the Big, bold P.....promotion! As much as I enjoy a cup run, the only thing that matters right now is to move up a division. As an aside, there's a lot about today's game that is based on short-termism, mainly driven by money and the way this fuel's a supporters assumption that failure and success are cut and dried issues. That if you don't succeed then you're deemed to be a dismal failure, not just any old failure, but a complete waste of a job because you didn't get it right the first time round. Given that as a criteria I guess NC has one more season (or maybe less) to get his team building right, play a more direct style of football, and show the supporters a more incisive, effective brand of footie. Most posters seem to agree on where we need strengthening, so on top of that maybe NC will throw up a pleasant surprise in his transfer dealings, as he did last term with Adams and Done.

Does that provide an answer you're happy with?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I'm interested in going to see the Northern Lights actually

I'd like to see that light at the end of this tunnel.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Hi AlBlade, all fair comments. As for what I'd consider failure, not getting promoted must surely be the number one aim? Where posts concerning Clough are concerned they are often rhetorical, understandably so given the level of expectation. I make this point not because I want to demonstrate a talent for the bleedin' obvious, but to save a circular, point scoring exchange between us.

So, the Big, bold P.....promotion! As much as I enjoy a cup run, the only thing that matters right now is to move up a division. As an aside, there's a lot about today's game that is based on short-termism, mainly driven by money and the way this fuel's a supporters assumption that failure and success are cut and dried issues. That if you don't succeed then you're deemed to be a dismal failure, not just any old failure, but a complete waste of a job because you didn't get it right the first time round. Given that as a criteria I guess NC has one more season (or maybe less) to get his team building right, play a more direct style of football, and show the supporters a more incisive, effective brand of footie. Most posters seem to agree on where we need strengthening, so on top of that maybe NC will throw up a pleasant surprise in his transfer dealings, as he did last term with Adams and Done.

Does that provide an answer you're happy with?

 

[Grappler]

Unless we know for sure that a cast iron, heavyweight manager is waiting in the wings to join SUFC, then we have to stick with Clough. We have had too many managers in recent years. Clough has faults for sure, but I don't trust the board to make the right choice (yet) if they push him out. Clough is strong minded, stubborn, opinionated, and (unforgivably), singles out players for criticism in public.

However, I would rather have a strong minded manager than a Mickey Adams or a David Weir. Both nice blokes I am sure, but both came across in interviews like the teacher who can’t control the kids in the classroom, all doom and gloom. A shame for Weir, because his 4-5-1 formation has actually worked for us, to an extent, this season, but didn’t produce enough goals.

Like I said, for me personally, unless a real heavyweight manager is suddenly about to be unveiled, let’s stick to what we have. One more season though, that’s it, it has to be automatic and NC needs to build a strong team to power us out of League One for good.

 

[bornablade]

What would I consider failure?

Last season we participated in the best FA Cup semi final at the new Wembley and we were nominated for a BAFTA.

This season we've taken part in the best Play Off match ever (Daily Mail).

Stuff promotion and the cups I want a BAFTA. If we're not on that red carpet next season then it's Cloughie out for me.

 

[AlBlade]

So, the Big, bold P.....promotion! As much as I enjoy a cup run, the only thing that matters right now is to move up a division. As an aside, there's a lot about today's game that is based on short-termism, mainly driven by money and the way this fuel's a supporters assumption that failure and success are cut and dried issues. That if you don't succeed then you're deemed to be a dismal failure, not just any old failure, but a complete waste of a job because you didn't get it right the first time round. Given that as a criteria I guess NC has one more season (or maybe less) to get his team building right, play a more direct style of football, and show the supporters a more incisive, effective brand of footie. Most posters seem to agree on where we need strengthening, so on top of that maybe NC will throw up a pleasant surprise in his transfer dealings, as he did last term with Adams and Done.

Does that provide an answer you're happy with?

I recognise that my opinion is just that - an opinion - so I wasn't looking to be happy or otherwise with the answer.

I agree that there is a lot of short-termism in football, however, I would have thought the objective for this season was also promotion, so from my perspective this season has been a failure, and by default NC has failed too. Whether that should cost him his job, is a further matter of opinion.

My worry is that I can see a lot pf parallels with this season and the 2009/10 season, i.e the season was very disappointing, the style of football was poor, and many fans were disgruntled with the manager at the end of the season. Blackwell didn't go at the end of the season, however, after a poor start to the was sacked in August the following season. I genuinely believe that if we had been decisive and sacked Blackwell at the end of the 09/10 season, brought in a new manager, let him build the squad and have a full pre-season we would not have been relegated from the Championship. I think we now have a similar situation with Clough, in that if he doesn't have a great start to next season, the fans will get on his back, and he will be sacked early in the campaign. If this happens, I think any new manager coming in has less chance of getting us promoted, as he will have less ability to change the playing squad.

I genuinely hope I'm wrong, and that we have a fantastic start to next season, and we are 15 points clear by Christmas - at which point I will eat lots of humble pie regarding my comments on Clough. However, I haven't seen anything this season to give me the confidence that will be the case.

 

[itsinyerblood]

I recognise that my opinion is just that - an opinion - so I wasn't looking to be happy or otherwise with the answer.

I agree that there is a lot of short-termism in football, however, I would have thought the objective for this season was also promotion, so from my perspective this season has been a failure, and by default NC has failed too. Whether that should cost him his job, is a further matter of opinion.

My worry is that I can see a lot pf parallels with this season and the 2009/10 season, i.e the season was very disappointing, the style of football was poor, and many fans were disgruntled with the manager at the end of the season. Blackwell didn't go at the end of the season, however, after a poor start to the was sacked in August the following season. I genuinely believe that if we had been decisive and sacked Blackwell at the end of the 09/10 season, brought in a new manager, let him build the squad and have a full pre-season we would not have been relegated from the Championship. I think we now have a similar situation with Clough, in that if he doesn't have a great start to next season, the fans will get on his back, and he will be sacked early in the campaign. If this happens, I think any new manager coming in has less chance of getting us promoted, as he will have less ability to change the playing squad.

I genuinely hope I'm wrong, and that we have a fantastic start to next season, and we are 15 points clear by Christmas - at which point I will eat lots of humble pie regarding my comments on Clough. However, I haven't seen anything this season to give me the confidence that will be the case.

I kind of get what you're suggesting, but it presupposes several definites. Would a new manager be better equipped to improve things? No one can answer that question, so what happens is that internal discussions should have been held to ensure that a thorough dissection has taken place so that we can move forward with confidence. Interestingly, in NC's first season I can't recall anyone complaining about the football we played. Perhaps this season's failure will act as a salutary lesson and enable NC and the players to reflect, improve, and progress. We've no way of knowing of course, but there are no guarantees, even with a new manager.

As for historical comparisons, I'm not convinced this is as constructive or helpful as we'd like to imagine.

I wouldn't expect you to eat humble pie, but should you feel compelled to do so, could you let me know a time and location? I'll join you with a camera as we look forward to the following season.

 

[BushBlade]

I recognise that my opinion is just that - an opinion - so I wasn't looking to be happy or otherwise with the answer.

I agree that there is a lot of short-termism in football, however, I would have thought the objective for this season was also promotion, so from my perspective this season has been a failure, and by default NC has failed too. Whether that should cost him his job, is a further matter of opinion.

My worry is that I can see a lot pf parallels with this season and the 2009/10 season, i.e the season was very disappointing, the style of football was poor, and many fans were disgruntled with the manager at the end of the season. Blackwell didn't go at the end of the season, however, after a poor start to the was sacked in August the following season. I genuinely believe that if we had been decisive and sacked Blackwell at the end of the 09/10 season, brought in a new manager, let him build the squad and have a full pre-season we would not have been relegated from the Championship. I think we now have a similar situation with Clough, in that if he doesn't have a great start to next season, the fans will get on his back, and he will be sacked early in the campaign. If this happens, I think any new manager coming in has less chance of getting us promoted, as he will have less ability to change the playing squad.

I genuinely hope I'm wrong, and that we have a fantastic start to next season, and we are 15 points clear by Christmas - at which point I will eat lots of humble pie regarding my comments on Clough. However, I haven't seen anything this season to give me the confidence that will be the case.

Fair comment. I think the fundamental difference between those who want Clough to stay and those who want him out is how you interpret the season; whether we progressed, stood still or gone backwards.

We all know the arguments so I'm not going to repeat them again.

There is also the question of whether we trust the board to competantly replace Clough. KM's track record of bringing in managers since Warnock has been as good as Clough's track record of league promotions yet many people seem to assume we'll bring in somebody decent. The same people who quote Clough's track record as being the reason we definitely won't win promotion next season are confident we'll bring in the likes of Adkins or Warburton and not someone like Lee Clarke.

The season before Blackwell was sacked was far more farcical than this season. Our play was worse, we finished lower in the league with our playoff hopes gone long before the end of the season, despite having a relatively good budget for that league, having sold the Kyles.

And I agree we should have let Blackwell go at the end of the season. I just think it's a bit unfair to say Clough has messed it up to the same extent as Blackwell.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Everyone should take into acoount the poll on here which shows 65% support for Clough staying. The Board will always be sensitive to their customers' sentiments and that is a reasonable result for the manager after such a disappointing season. The manager clearly has something about him to retain the confidence of so many after such a poor season and so little evident progress in the "rebuild project"( IMO).

The manager has declared a plan to correct some of the glaring weaknesses in past transfer activity, such as height and power, central defence and the need to sign a small number of higher quality players to enhance the squad, game changers I hope.

Another interesting poll the Board would be interested in would be a poll of the players. No doubt they conduct their straw polls in some shapes or forms and have means of checking all is well in the dressing room. Doyle's recent interview was not exactly a ringing endorsement of the manager but he is now yesterday's man of course, not that I thought Doyle was anything other than dignified and diplomatic which he surely was.

Anyway Clough was always going to get more time and he will be his own biggest critic. It would cost a small fortune to remove him and his cronies now and it will be a lot cheaper in a year's time. If he fails I have a hunch he will fall on his sword long before the end of next season as he is a sensitive and proud man. What's another year anyway, yes another year's budget spend but not a lot more in our recent history and downward spiral; things will turn one day, nothing is more certain.

If Clough seriously has learned some lessons at this juncture of his long managerial career then he might well succeed. I hope so and I also hope we charge up to the Championship with a squad and a style of play which gives us confidence for success at that level.

Personally I am nervously awaiting the 3 or 4 quality signings this summer and I hope we allow no quality departures to back that up. This is a massive test for our Head Scout and I hope he passes it with flying colours.The news about Holt is encouraging and I'm one of the few who thinks we in addition be more ambitious than signing Steve Davies, not that today's news he's leaving necessarily means he won't sign for us in due course.

If I could get odds on us getting automatic promotion next season I'd go with a big bet.

 

[TexasBlade]

I've had a good read of the posts on here and mostly they're very constructive so very happy we can debate this properly.

I was a Clough out now vote. He's failed in my eyes after spending a lot of money. That said I'm in the minority so I'll go with the flow.

If we're languishing in mid-table at Christmas he has to go though. I really wish him well, that something clicks and are romping the league, I really do.

Come on Nigel get it right!!

 

[Silent Blade]

As most who have read my posts will know I am not a big fan of NC, however, I do understand that different people have different views. With regard to "If he fails [next season] he will be sacked" - what would you consider failure?

From my perspective, NC this season couldn't have been a bigger failure if he tried (dismal transfers with huge amounts of money wasted, major fall outs with players, poor tactically in League One games, dull brand of football, 20 points off automatic promotion, no centre backs at the club, etc. etc.); so for those who want Clough to have another season, what would you consider as a failure and grounds for his dismissal this time next year?

As itsinyerblood explained in his post that short termism doest often work for many clubs I would say in the third tier for a club in our stature you should give a manager another season if his first full season didnt achieve promotion but the squad seemed stronger than in the previous season and finished in a play off spot at least (next season I am giving Clough one more chance), in the second tier I would give the manager at least four or five seasons (depends our league placings) and if he doesnt get us in the Premiership then I would want us to have a new manager (I remember Jack Charlton saying five years is enough for a manager to be at a club and I agree with him). Lets look at our previous managers since 1959

1959 John Harris, didnt make many changes to Joe Mercer's squad and and in his 2nd full season achieved promotion to the top tier (we stayed there for 7 years)

1968 Arthur Rowley signed 5 players (to be fair 4 of them were good players) but we didnt have a good season. He was sacked (our poor season wasnt the main reason for his sacking)

1969 John Harris, didnt make many changed to Arthur Rowley's squad and and in his 2nd full season achieved promotion to the top tier

1973 Ken Furphy, brought in "3rd division players", before his first full season he forced to sell a key player (Geoff Salmons) due to club struggling with payments for the South Stand and surprisingly we finished in 6th place. Poor start in what was supposed to be his 2nd full season got him the sack

1975 Jimmy Sirrel, had problems in dealing with senior players but did well in nurturing young players (most of them became established players). He didnt buy many players. Poor start in what was supposed to be his 2nd full season got him the sack

1978 Harry Haslam, made many changes, his team had flair but performances were poor and league places were worse than the previous seasons in his three years. Resigned

1981 Martin Peters, awful and resigned

1981 Ian Porterfield, made a lot of changes, promoted in his first season, promoted again in his third season. Got sacked halfway through his 10 year contract despite our highest position in 10 seasons

1986 Billy McEwan, forced to sell players and bring in cheap signings as club struggle to recover from previous manager's budget. Sacked in his 2nd season

1988 Dave Bassett. Admitted he made too many changes when he came in, we got relegated but during the summer he made many changes again but got promotion in his first full season and promotion again in his 2nd season (he signed many players too). He carried on his wheeling and dealing as we spend 4 seasons in the top tier but in his 8th year "his magic" was no longer there (board problems was a big reason) and he resigned

1995 Howard Kendall. Made many changes in his one and half seasons and spending a lot of money. Lost in play offs and then went to manage Everton for the 3rd time

1997 Nigel Spackman (I think we appointed him too quickly after fans pressure) brought in a lot of players, good season but he walked out after board forced him to sell players

1998 Steve Bruce. Forced to sell players and bring in cheap signings as club struggle to recover from previous managers' budget also boardroom struggles. went to Huddersfield as he thought they were more ambitious than us.

1999 Adrian Heath. Struggled before resigning

1999 Neil Warnock. A lot of wheeling and dealing in his 7 and half years. Play offs in 2003 and promotion in 2006. Contract not renewed after relegation in 2007

2007. Bryan Robson. A massive joke and wasted a lot of parachute money, compensation from Tevez affair etc

2008 Blackwell. Brought in stability, play offs in 2009, got sacked in 2010 as board tried to attract foreign buyers who turned out to be dodgy

2010 Speed, Carver and Adams. Stability disappeared

2011 Danny Wilson, Silly protest tried to put club off from appointing him but he was unlucky not to get promotion in his first season. Surprisingly got sacked just before play offs in 2013

2013 David Weir. Disastrous

2013 Nigel Clough, brilliant after Xmas 2013, FA Cup semis, finished one place behind play offs, 2014-15 was mixture of bad luck due to injuries, bad decisions leading to inconsistencies, Ched saga etc, Shocking ref in 1st leg and our weakness in set pieces cost us Wembley place

History tells you that short termism has not brought us success. Give Clough a chance to remedy the mistakes he made in 2014-15 and hopefully we will have better luck with injuries

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Out, out and thrice out!

 

[Ben_1982]

As long as he's seen the errors of last season and addresses the physicality, or lack of it & actually goes for quality I'll back him. Thinking back on it, loads of people clambering for Warnock to return, he's was wanted out during most of his 8 years by certain people . Let's give NC a chance to atone for his errors

 

[LoughboroBlade]

As long as he's seen the errors of last season and addresses the physicality, or lack of it & actually goes for quality I'll back him. Thinking back on it, loads of people clambering for Warnock to return, he's was wanted out during most of his 8 years by certain people . Let's give NC a chance to atone for his errors

And of course that was at its height the season immediately before he got it spot on and we went up. After various disappointing signings from the previous two seasons, Warnock's signings that summer were excellent - and the football substantially better.

 

[Hague Blade]

Ben_1982

Thanks for that - you've summed up my view in one sentence: let's give him a chance to atone for his errors.

I think a lot of the squabbling on here revolves around exactly that issue: the 'Clough out' brigade who see nothing but errors and at times almost seem to dislike the guy , and the 'In Clough we trust' camp, who are equally in denial and simply won't accept his obvious flaws and the mistakes he made last season.

Like most things in life, it's shades of grey rather than black or white - some good, some bad - but for me there definitely were some errors, we didn't get promotion (which must be a failure in everyone's book, surely) and so he's playing catch-up if you like, rather than moving ahead with the fans united behind him.

 

[Gavlar]

I've voted to keep him. I would give him another full season, unless we are nowhere near the playoffs by Christmas.

It's a frustrating one as I thought we would do better this season. We have looked more of a goal threat tho, which we haven't for some time, but defensively we must improve bigtime.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I've voted to keep him. I would give him another full season, unless we are nowhere near the playoffs by Christmas.

It's a frustrating one as I thought we would do better this season. We have looked more of a goal threat tho, which we haven't for some time, but defensively we must improve bigtime.

Last season falls into two categories.

Work in progress
or
Missed / wasted opportunity.

We take our pick. Could next season be classed exactly the same.

UTB

 

[Lane Ender]

Things would have been a lot different if we had lost four or five nowt on Thursday even a lot of the moderates on here would have been calling for his head and the vote would certainly tell a different story.
Clough needs to thank the players who staged the fight back and took the game into their own hands and could have nicked it in the end.
Learn from your mistakes Clough that's all that needs to be said

 

[robbiez666]

Last season falls into two categories.

Work in progress
or
Missed / wasted opportunity.

We take our pick. Could next season be classed exactly the same.

UTB

In order to be a work in progress, there has to be progress. I saw no progress.

 

[super_pig]

if we aren't top of the league after ten games and playing like brazil then i want to see this poll revisited
i'm not convinced by Clough.. his constant chopping and changing no matter what the performance must be totally deflating for the players and he seems to be gradually building this ex Derby clique which looks very poisonous

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

I can remember it. But

a) We are discussing his success this season (or lack of it)

b) It is actually a downward curve based on a comparison to his record the season before last, not an upward curve, as you suggest, since he has got less points per game this season

c) His target was promotion, which he has failed, and being able to outspend your competition handsomely and finishing so far behind is where the focus should rest in 'acknowledgement' of this season.

At least Wilson and Wier's hands were more or less tied. Clough had a windfall and blew it.

a) Depends what you're measuring it against

b) Different season, different teams. We finished two places higher than the previous season.

c) His target or our target? Our target is always promotion, like most teams and most fail.

Again all facts. I'm also not sure on your definition of a windfall.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Do you know what he cost ( I presumed he was free)?

UTB

I think you're presumption would be a lot closer.